Sean Murphy's research deserves more

[Bob Prudhomme]

I just want to point something out. While I am not a proxy for the ROKC, as some paranoid delusionals seem to believe, I do pick up some good ideas from that site. (the research on Jarman's HSCA interview by Bart Kamp comes to mind) These boys might be a little "unrefined", but they are definitely not afraid to think outside the box; something desperately lacking in the JFK research world today.

[Bob Prudhomme]

You just answered the bottleneck question for yourself, Albert. If Frazier was standing beside PM, for possibly several minutes or more, and looking directly at PM for the duration of the Couch film, and could NOT remember PM simply because she was "a non-descript woman he had no reason to remember", why would the people re-entering the TSBD remember her? Also, they would all be distracted by the commotion they had just seen and would have been discussing it amongst themselves, and they would only have been in the vicinity of PM for a second or two before they were in the building. It was not as if PM was standing directly in front of the door. PM was tucked into the corner on the west side of the steps, completely out of the way of re-entering employees.

You want to talk about a bottleneck? How many witnesses on the steps saw Officer Marrion Baker, wearing a white motorcycle helmet, enter the TSBD?

That's not true. If Prayer Man was Oswald he slipped inside shortly after Darnell since that's the last we see of him. There was a crowd in the doorway at that time.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here? We're not talking about the woman who was Prayer Man we're talking about Lee Harvey Oswald who shortly after became one of the most famous people in America. I don't know if you're trying to be cute but the woman who Duncan discovered and Oswald are two entirely different deals. So you once again haven't really answered the point. If Oswald was Prayer Man the point where he had to re-enter was crowded in the doorway. There's no way he would not have been seen.


As for Baker Lovelady said he saw him going in. There are no witnesses to him doing anything else.

So, Albert, Lovelady saw Baker enter the TSBD did he? Is that the witness you would like to go with? The only place Lovelady claimed this sighting was in his testimony to the Warren Commission.

Would you like me to post some of Lovelady's testimony (maybe Bill Shelley's too? That would be fun) and see how it contradicts Baker's testimony? If what Lovelady testified to was true, it would mean Baker did not enter the TSBD for at LEAST three minutes following the last shot, and NOT the 20 seconds Baker testified to.

P.S.

Can you prove that PM slipped inside after Darnell, or did you see this in a vision, too?

[Albert Doyle]

No that's it Bob. The reality here is your doubt of every single major event at the Book Depository is the norm and until we prove different we're just paranoid delusionals.


I doubt Baker would have dashed towards the front door and not gone in and I doubt Lee Harvey Oswald could be standing out on the front steps and not be seen.


You're getting sloppy Bob. If Prayer Man was Oswald he had to have slipped in. You're putting your doubting Thomas challenge before common sense. Why, are you saying Oswald stayed out on the steps?


Ah, your witnesses again to Baker going somewhere else?

[Bob Prudhomme]

No that's it Bob. The reality here is your doubt of every single major event at the Book Depository is the norm and until we prove different we're just paranoid delusionals.


I doubt Baker would have dashed towards the front door and not gone in and I doubt Lee Harvey Oswald could be standing out on the front steps and not be seen.


You're getting sloppy Bob. If Prayer Man was Oswald he had to have slipped in. You're putting your doubting Thomas challenge before common sense. Why, are you saying Oswald stayed out on the steps?


Ah, your witnesses again to Baker going somewhere else?

In other words, you desperately don't want me to post Lovelady's WC testimony. Are you afraid the sheeple reading this might get the idea there is something quite wrong with Baker's story, and the whole second floor lunch room encounter story? Tell me again which team you are playing for, Albert. I can't quite recall.

Just for you, and the folks at home, I will post excerpts from Billy Lovelady's AND Bill Shelley's Warren Commission testimony, and then compare them to Baker's testimony, and we'll see what stinks after that.

You're messing with the wrong hombre here, slick.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Go ahead Bob.

Bombs away on Baker.

[Albert Doyle]

Go ahead Bob.

Bombs away on Baker.

No. Stick to the issue that caused this thread to be brought back up. Darnell showing Prayer Man is a woman.



The only reason Baker was being discussed was because he bracketed Oswald being in the lunch-room from Carolyn Arnold's sighting to Baker's.



Bob is trying to veer the thread into his Baker tangents in order to avoid the fact Sean Murphy's theory was just debunked.

[Albert Doyle]

In other words, you desperately don't want me to post Lovelady's WC testimony. Are you afraid the sheeple reading this might get the idea there is something quite wrong with Baker's story, and the whole second floor lunch room encounter story? Tell me again which team you are playing for, Albert. I can't quite recall.

Just for you, and the folks at home, I will post excerpts from Billy Lovelady's AND Bill Shelley's Warren Commission testimony, and then compare them to Baker's testimony, and we'll see what stinks after that.

You're messing with the wrong hombre here, slick.

No, you're getting off-topic. There may very well be problems with their testimony. But you're taking this into territory that doesn't prove or disprove things you haven't adequately answered already.

[Albert Doyle]

Greg Parker is psychological. He's spinning a pre-emptive case of speculative contrivances that subjectively judge Carolyn Arnold's thoughts and motives and using that to dismiss what Mrs Arnold herself said and insisted.


He's using a desperate canard that Mrs Arnold confused the expected 12:25 original motorcade time with the actual 12:30 shooting time and that explains her statements. He's hinging everything on the claim that Carolyn Arnold would not have left the building at 12:25 for a motorcade that was scheduled to arrive at 12:25. All this is totally irrelevant though since Carolyn Arnold is the one who insisted it was 12:25.


Parker is also ignoring the fact that Mrs Arnold had 4 months of intense personal and media exposure showing the shooting happened at 12:30 prior to her March 1964 statement where she told FBI she left the building at 12:25.


Parker criticizes Golz for not questioning Carolyn Arnold why she left the building at the same time as the expected motorcade? Or if she knew the motorcade was running late? But it seems pretty obvious to me that the reason Golz didn't ask those things is because both he and Carolyn Arnold understood the gist of the interview was exposing FBI manipulation and lies concerning her testimony. Parker buys those lies and accepts FBI's 12:15 claim, never hesitating over the fact the same report also contained a claim that Mrs Arnold saw Oswald by the front door - something she strongly denied to Golz. To Parker it is Carolyn Arnold who is lying, not the FBI.


Parker once again puts his disinformation psychology into full gear and posits Carolyn Arnold told FBI she saw Oswald by the front door in her 1963 statement. He takes the FBI's side and says that's why they never mentioned her lunch-room sighting in either report. It never dawns on Parker that FBI might have not mentioned that encounter because they were trying to cover-up evidence that Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy. It also doesn't bother Parker that Mrs Arnold strongly denied saying 12:15 to FBI. Parker is a person who thinks his speculative contrivances rule reality and will correct Mrs Arnold on that.

[Bob Prudhomme]

From the Warren Commission testimony of Billy Lovelady:

"Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary.
Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where does she work?
Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co."

Gloria Calvery was standing with several friends just a few feet away from the Stemmons Freeway sign.



There has been some doubt recently as to whether the woman ID'ed here as CalvEry is the right person. Suffice it to say she actually was down Elm St. a good distance, and did not likely get to the TSBD steps before Officer Baker.

"Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?
Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.
Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley."

This clearly establishes that Shelley and Lovelady did NOT leave the steps until Gloria Calvery came up to the TSBD steps from her position down near the Stemmons sign. Additional time must be added for her brief Q & A session with Shelley and Lovelady.

Now for the good part.

"Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?
Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.
Mr. BALL - That's all?
Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---
Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

"Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.

So, let's see what we have here. After the last shot, Shelley and Lovelady remained on the steps for an estimated three minutes, and did not leave the steps until Gloria Calvery returned from the pergola area with news of the shooting she witnessed. Their departure was not immediate, as they had time to ask her several questions before they left for the rail yard. According to Lovelady, they were 20-25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back and saw Truly and Baker running into the building. (notice Lovelady proffers the info about seeing the policeman running into the building without even being asked. What a good witness! He almost sounds coached!)

Here is corroborating testimony from the Warren Commission testimony of Bill Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place?
Mr. SHELLEY - I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.
Mr. BALL - Were they running?
Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around."

So, Shelley backs up Lovelady's story, only instead of 3 minutes, he feels they were on the steps for 3-4 minutes following the last shot. He does agree with Lovelady, though, in that they did NOT leave the steps until Gloria Calvery came up from the site of the assassination. Maybe she was a track star? She sure didn't look like it.

Here is her wedding picture from early 1963.



Now that we know what Lovelady and Shelley believe happened, let's compare it to Baker's story. From the Warren Commission testimony of Marrion Baker:

"Mr. BELIN - In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was something else?
Mr. BAKER - It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for about a week.
Mr. BELIN - What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from?
Mr. BAKER - It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle."

"Mr. BELIN - All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots.
Mr. BELIN - What distance did you state? What we did on Friday afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced off to how much?
Mr. BAKER - From 180 to 200 feet.
Mr. BELIN - That is where you parked the motorcycle?
Mr. BAKER - Yes."

"Mr. BELIN - We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March 20?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember how far that was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway?
Mr. BAKER - Approximately 45 feet."

"Mr. BELIN - You then ran into the Building, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
Mr. BELIN - All right."

"Mr. BAKER - We went back and made two trial runs on that, and---
Mr. BELIN - Was that on Friday, March 20?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and--
Mr. DULLES - Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot?
Mr. BAKER - From the last shot.
Mr. BELIN - The first shot.
Mr. DULLES - The first shot?
Mr. BAKER - The first shot.
We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that I, you know. it took me a little longer.
Mr. DULLES - I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - When we saw Oswald.
Mr. DULLES - When you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES - And that time is how much?
Mr. BAKER - The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds."

Baker's time trials indicated that he was facing Oswald in the second floor lunch room in just over a minute and fifteen seconds from the time of the first shot. Considering the time spent inside the TSBD waiting for the elevator and climbing the stairs to the first floor, it is estimated, from the time of the last shot, twenty seconds elapsed before Baker entered the TSBD. To be fair, we can allot 30 or 40 seconds outside of the TSBD but, that will reduce the time inside of the building to 30 or 40 seconds.

Whatever amount of time we choose for Baker to run up the steps and enter the TSBD, it still clashes horribly with Shelley's and Lovelady's testimony. Remember, they remained on the steps for three minutes, until Gloria Calvery arrived, and likely spent another 30 seconds speaking to her. They then proceeded down the Elm St. extension, and were 20-25 steps away from the stairs before they looked back to see Truly and Baker enter the TSBD. Correction; only Lovelady saw them go up the steps. Shelley only saw them on the first step "like they were fixin' to go in".

In total, four minutes or more may have elapsed from the time of the last shot until Lovelady saw Baker and Truly enter the TSBD, compared to Baker's allotted time of a maximum of 40 seconds. If you really want to go with Lovelady as a reliable witness for Baker, then Baker entered the TSBD LONG after the time he testified to doing so. Maybe that explains why no witnesses on the steps, including Buell Wesley Frazier, could recall seeing the white helmeted Baker entering the TSBD when testifying before the Warren Commission.

[Bob Prudhomme]

In other words, you desperately don't want me to post Lovelady's WC testimony. Are you afraid the sheeple reading this might get the idea there is something quite wrong with Baker's story, and the whole second floor lunch room encounter story? Tell me again which team you are playing for, Albert. I can't quite recall.

Just for you, and the folks at home, I will post excerpts from Billy Lovelady's AND Bill Shelley's Warren Commission testimony, and then compare them to Baker's testimony, and we'll see what stinks after that.

You're messing with the wrong hombre here, slick.

No, you're getting off-topic. There may very well be problems with their testimony. But you're taking this into territory that doesn't prove or disprove things you haven't adequately answered already.

Take your punishment like a man, Brian!