Sean Murphy's research deserves more

[Ivan De Mey]

Sean Murphy's arguments for Oswald being on the top steps of the TSBD right after the shooting are underestimated I think.
His research on this subject has the potential of becoming the final nail in the coffin of the Warren report. Why?

1) It can not be refuted. Not even by John McAdams.
2) It's visual (the Darnell-fragment, the Fritz-notes, the newspaper-clippings)

Visual proof is the best way to convince people, even if what you're saying is incorrect. Dale Meyers understands this.
Sean Murphy's research is now buried in a very long thread over at the Education Forum (Jim DiEugenio pointed to this in his review of Philip Shenon's book, that's how I found it). Should Murphy make an essay out of this? If he did, we would all read it I'm sure, but we would be the only ones. The media would ignore it, as they always do. I think the best way to present this explosive evidence is in a short film, with a good narrator. And get it out on Youtube, Vimeo and - hopefully - television.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....354&page=1

[Magda Hassan]

This is getting into Ralph Kitchen Cinque plus snake oil territory. There is plenty of doubt it was Oswald on the TSB steps if you are referring to 'that' photo. He was sighted in the lunchroom by several people and there is already much documentation along those lines. He was not on the 6th floor in either case and was not the assassin. You'd do better to did out the pertinet research and make a case for it than leave it buried in that thread.

[Ivan De Mey]

This is getting into Ralph Kitchen Cinque plus snake oil territory. There is plenty of doubt it was Oswald on the TSB steps if you are referring to 'that' photo. He was sighted in the lunchroom by several people and there is already much documentation along those lines. He was not on the 6th floor in either case and was not the assassin. You'd do better to did out the pertinet research and make a case for it than leave it buried in that thread.

I'm sorry if I haven't made myself clear. Sean's research is not about the Altgens 6 photo. The Altgens photo shows Billy Lovelady, not Oswald. And yes, Oswald was seen in the lunchroom, but stepped outside moments after the shots. He can be seen in a few frames of the Darnell-film. That's what Sean has proven now, and to me it seems like definitive proof of Oswalds innocence. I just hope Sean Murphy does something with this, and not just leave it at the forum-thread.

[Magda Hassan]

Ah, that looks better! Still a good idea to take out the relevant pieces from the thread though

[Seamus Coogan]

Ah, that looks better! Still a good idea to take out the relevant pieces from the thread though

I agree Magda anybody who say's Oswald standing on the steps outside the TSBD and say's this clinches the case are naive. There is more than enough evidence of conspiracy without hanging ones balls out to dry on this single issue.

Let us not forget that Shane O'Sullivan another Irishman got caned by Dave Talbot, Jeff Morley and Lisa Pease, for his documentary concerning RFK. There were all manner of false photo ID's. I hope this is by and large a better effort from Murphy.

Generally speaking from what I have seen it looks okay. I just hate dangling thesis like this.

[Tracy Riddle]

I've followed this thread on the Education Forum and was initially highly skeptical, but now I'm more on the fence. We should be able to figure out who "prayer man" is by deduction. My only doubt comes from the possibility that "prayer man" may be a woman (middle-aged or older) with short hair. We don't have photos of most of the TSBD employees to compare it to.

Here's a list I made up years ago of all the employees, based on FBI interviews done in 1964. Name/Occupation/location at time of assassination:

Adams, Victoria Elizabeth Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor. Did not see LHO on stairs TSBD, 4th floor window with Dorman, Styles, Garner
Aiken, Haddon Spurgeon Worked at the N Houston warehouse
Arce, Danny Garcia Hispanic Order filler at TSBD North side of Elm, alone on grassy area in front of TSBD
Arnold, Carolyn (R.E.) TSBD Secretary. Saw LHO shortly before assassination; she did not return to TSBD after shooting TSBD, in front with OV Campbell, Dragoo, Bonnie Richley, Virgie Baker, Judy Johnson
Barnum, Virginia H. McGraw-Hill Publishing; was away at lunch during assassination; returned at 12:40 and could not enter building
Berry, Jane Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor North side of Elm with Betty Thornton
Burns, Doris Fay Macmillan Co. employee, third floor TSBD, third floor hallway
Calvery, Gloria South Western Publishing Co employee North side of Elm, halfway between Houston and TU with Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook
Campbell, Ochus Virgil Vice president of the TSBD On Elm in front of TSBD
Case, Edna Macmillan Co employee, third floor TSBD, third floor with Sandra Ellerson
Cason, Jack Charles President of TSBD, was on Stemmons Freeway at time of assassination
Caster, Warren South-Western Publishing Co. District Manager; not at work on 11/22; brought rifles into TSBD on 11/20
Clay, Billie P. (Mrs Herman N.) Allyn-Bacon employee, third floor On Elm west of TSBD with Mary Lea Williams, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Mrs John Hawkins
Davis, Avery (Mrs Charles Thomas Davis) Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD entrance steps with Judy McCully
Davis, Mrs. Joseph A. (Vickie) Absent from work on 11/22/1963
Dean, Ruth Macmillan Publishing employee, third floor TSBD front steps with Madie Reese
Dickerson, Mary Sue Allyn-Bacon Inc employee, third floor North side of Elm, in front of TSBD with Bille Clay
Dorman, Elsie Scott-Foresman Co., fourth floor, 57 years old TSBD, 4th floor with Dorothy Ann Garner, Victoria Adams, Sandra Styles
Dougherty, Jack Edwin Stock clerk at TSBD TSBD, 5th floor near elevator alone
Dragoo, Betty Jean TSBD employee, 2nd floor, 27 years old On Elm in front of TSBD with Bonnie Richey, Carolyn Arnold, Virgie Baker, Judy Johnson
Elerson, Sandra Sue (Mrs Ronald G.) Temp working for MacMillan Publishing, third floor TSBD, third floor window
Foster, Betty Alice Scott-Foresman clerk TSBD, 4th floor stockroom with Mary Hollies
Frazier, Buell Wesley Order filler at TSBD TSBD, front steps with William Shelley, Lovelady
Garner, Dorothy Ann Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, 4th floor (5th window from east end) with Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams, Sandra Styles
Givens, Charles Douglas Black wrapper/order filler at TSBD Corner of Record and Elm St.
Hendrix, Georgia Ruth Allyn-Bacon employee, third floor On Elm St, 150ft west of TSBD with Mary Lee Williams, Herman Clay, Sue Dickerson, Mrs John Hawkins
Hicks, Karan (Mrs James Daniel) South-Western Publishing, second floor North side of Elm, halfway between TSBD and TU with Glory Calvery, Carol Reed, Karen Westbrook
Hine, Geneva L. Credit Desk, TSBD TSBD, second floor alone
Hollies, Mary Madeline Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, Fourth floor window with Alice Foster
Holt, Gloria Jeannie Clerk in billing dept, TSBD since July 1963 South side of Elm with Jacob, Mrs Nelson (Sharon Simmons)
Hopson, Yola D. Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, Fourth floor middle window with Ruth Nelson
Hughes, Carol South Western Publishing employee, 2nd floor TSBD, Second floor window alone
Jacob, Stella Billing dept typist, TSBD since July 1963 South side of Elm (with Sharon Simmons [Mrs Nelson], Jeanne Holt)
Jarman, James Earl "Junior" Black checker at TSBD TSBD, Fifth floor window
Johnson, Judy Marie TSBD employee on 2nd floor. Did not return to TSBD after shooting SW corner of Elm and Houston with Holt, Jacob, Richey, Carolyn Arnold, Betty Dragoo.
Jones, Carl Edward Black order filler at TSBD TSBD, front steps w/Roy Truly, Campbell, Reid, Lovelady
Jones, Spaulden Earnest Manager of MacMillan Co., at a restaurant at time of assassination
Junker, Herbert L. MacMillan Co. employee, at a restaurant at time of assassination
Kaiser, Frankie Absent from work on 11/22/1963; found a clip supposedly belonged to LHO
Kounas, Dolores Arlene McGraw-Hill Publishing employee, third floor Elm & Houston SW corner with Roberta Parker and Lloyd Viles
Lawrence, Patricia Ann MacMillan Co. employee North side of Elm in front of TSBD with Lucy Whitaker
Lewis, Roy Edward Black warehouse worker TSBD, front entrance by himself
Lovelady, Billy Nolan Stock clerk, first floor, probably man seen in doorway in Altgens photo TSBD, front steps (with William Shelley, Sarah Stanton)
Lovelady, Dottie Absent from work on 11/22/1963
McCulley, Judith Louise Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, front steps with Mrs Charles Davis
Molina, Joe R. Credit Manager at TSBD, second floor TSBD, front steps with Otis Williams and Pauline Sanders
Nelson, Ruth Smith Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, Fourth floor window, east side with Yola Hopson
Nelson, Sharon Clerk, TSBD On Elm St halfway between TU and TSBD, with Holt and Jacob
Norman, Harold Dean Warehouse worker TSBD, Fifth floor window (with Williams and Jarman)
Palmer, Helen L. McGraw-Hill Book Co. employee, third floor; not at work on 11/22
Parker, Roberta McGraw-Hill employee, third floor Across street from TSBD w/Delores Kounas, Lloyd Viles
Piper, Eddie Black janitor at TSBD TSBD, First floor window
Rachley, Virgie (Mrs Donald Baker) A clerk at the TSBD, second floor In front of TSBD entrance with Dragoo, Carolyn Arnold, Judy Johnson, Bonnie Richey
Reed, Carol Southwestern Publishing employee Elm Street halfway between TU and TSBD (w/Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery)
Reed, Martha Biller, TSBD North side of Elm, between Record and Houston Sts
Reese, Madie Belle MacMillan employee, third floor TSBD, front steps (w/Ruth Dean)
Reid, Mrs. Robert A. Clerical supervisor, TSBD TSBD, front entrance (with Roy Truly and Ochus Campbell)
Richey, Bonnie Secretary, TSBD In front of TSBD (w/Ochus Campbell, Carolyn Arnold, Virgie Baker, Betty Dragoo, Judy Johnson)
Sanders, Pauline Clerk-accountant, TSBD, second floor TSBD, front entrance (w/Sarah Stanton)
Shelley, William H. 37 years old, Oswald's supervisor TSBD, front entrance (Billy Lovelady in front of him, also near Frazier, Sarah Stanton and Carolyn Arnold)
Shields, Edward Black shipping clerk at N. Houston warehouse On Main St with Charles Givens and James Lacy (in front of Mullendore's Cafeteria, 601 Main St.)
Smith, Gordon Not interviewed by FBI
Springer, Pearl Cutting room of TSBD? Close to SE corner of Elm & Houston
Stansbery, Joyce Maurine American Book Co., third floor North side of Elm
Stanton, Sarah D. Clerk, TSBD TSBD, front entrance (w/William Shelley, Otis Williams, R.E. Sanders, Billy Lovelady)
Styles, Sandra K. Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, 4th floor window (w/Dorothy Garner, Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams)
Thornton, Betty Jean Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor In front of TSBD (with Jane Berry)
Truly, Roy Sansom Superintendent TSBD TSBD, front entrance (with Ochus Campbell)
Viles, Lloyd R. McGraw-Hill Co., third floor Across street from TSBD (w/Dolores Kounas and Roberta Parker)
West, Troy Eugene Black wrapper, TSBD First floor TSBD (did not witness)
Westbrook, Karen South Western Publishing employee, 2nd floor North side of Elm halfway between TSBD and TU (w/Gloria Calvery, Carol Reed, Karan Hicks)
Wester, Franklin Emmett Stockman at North Houston warehouse since 1/1963; saw Frazier morning of 11/22/63
Whatley, Vida Lee Lyons and Carnahan Publishing secretary, was shopping on Elm St, did not witness assassination
Whitaker, Lucy (Lupe) Stenographer, MacMillan Co, TSBD Elm Street, north side in front of TSBD (w/Patricia Ann Lawrence)
Williams, Bonnie Ray Black checker, TSBD since Sept 1963 TSBD, fifth floor window (with Norman and Jarman)
Williams, Mary Lee Allyn and Bacon employee, third floor North side of Elm, just west of TSBD (w/ Sue Dickerson, Billie Clay, Ruth Hendrix. Mrs John Hawkins and son)
Williams, Otis Neville Bookkeeping supervisor, TSBD Front steps TSBD
Wilson, Steven F. Vice President of SW division of Allyn and Bacon, third floor TSBD, 3rd floor window

[Seamus Coogan]

I've followed this thread on the Education Forum and was initially highly skeptical, but now I'm more on the fence. We should be able to figure out who "prayer man" is by deduction. My only doubt comes from the possibility that "prayer man" may be a woman (middle-aged or older) with short hair. We don't have photos of most of the TSBD employees to compare it to.

Here's a list I made up years ago of all the employees, based on FBI interviews done in 1964. Name/Occupation/location at time of assassination:

Adams, Victoria Elizabeth Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor. Did not see LHO on stairs TSBD, 4th floor window with Dorman, Styles, Garner
Aiken, Haddon Spurgeon Worked at the N Houston warehouse
Arce, Danny Garcia Hispanic Order filler at TSBD North side of Elm, alone on grassy area in front of TSBD
Arnold, Carolyn (R.E.) TSBD Secretary. Saw LHO shortly before assassination; she did not return to TSBD after shooting TSBD, in front with OV Campbell, Dragoo, Bonnie Richley, Virgie Baker, Judy Johnson
Barnum, Virginia H. McGraw-Hill Publishing; was away at lunch during assassination; returned at 12:40 and could not enter building
Berry, Jane Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor North side of Elm with Betty Thornton
Burns, Doris Fay Macmillan Co. employee, third floor TSBD, third floor hallway
Calvery, Gloria South Western Publishing Co employee North side of Elm, halfway between Houston and TU with Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook
Campbell, Ochus Virgil Vice president of the TSBD On Elm in front of TSBD
Case, Edna Macmillan Co employee, third floor TSBD, third floor with Sandra Ellerson
Cason, Jack Charles President of TSBD, was on Stemmons Freeway at time of assassination
Caster, Warren South-Western Publishing Co. District Manager; not at work on 11/22; brought rifles into TSBD on 11/20
Clay, Billie P. (Mrs Herman N.) Allyn-Bacon employee, third floor On Elm west of TSBD with Mary Lea Williams, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Mrs John Hawkins
Davis, Avery (Mrs Charles Thomas Davis) Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD entrance steps with Judy McCully
Davis, Mrs. Joseph A. (Vickie) Absent from work on 11/22/1963
Dean, Ruth Macmillan Publishing employee, third floor TSBD front steps with Madie Reese
Dickerson, Mary Sue Allyn-Bacon Inc employee, third floor North side of Elm, in front of TSBD with Bille Clay
Dorman, Elsie Scott-Foresman Co., fourth floor, 57 years old TSBD, 4th floor with Dorothy Ann Garner, Victoria Adams, Sandra Styles
Dougherty, Jack Edwin Stock clerk at TSBD TSBD, 5th floor near elevator alone
Dragoo, Betty Jean TSBD employee, 2nd floor, 27 years old On Elm in front of TSBD with Bonnie Richey, Carolyn Arnold, Virgie Baker, Judy Johnson
Elerson, Sandra Sue (Mrs Ronald G.) Temp working for MacMillan Publishing, third floor TSBD, third floor window
Foster, Betty Alice Scott-Foresman clerk TSBD, 4th floor stockroom with Mary Hollies
Frazier, Buell Wesley Order filler at TSBD TSBD, front steps with William Shelley, Lovelady
Garner, Dorothy Ann Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, 4th floor (5th window from east end) with Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams, Sandra Styles
Givens, Charles Douglas Black wrapper/order filler at TSBD Corner of Record and Elm St.
Hendrix, Georgia Ruth Allyn-Bacon employee, third floor On Elm St, 150ft west of TSBD with Mary Lee Williams, Herman Clay, Sue Dickerson, Mrs John Hawkins
Hicks, Karan (Mrs James Daniel) South-Western Publishing, second floor North side of Elm, halfway between TSBD and TU with Glory Calvery, Carol Reed, Karen Westbrook
Hine, Geneva L. Credit Desk, TSBD TSBD, second floor alone
Hollies, Mary Madeline Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, Fourth floor window with Alice Foster
Holt, Gloria Jeannie Clerk in billing dept, TSBD since July 1963 South side of Elm with Jacob, Mrs Nelson (Sharon Simmons)
Hopson, Yola D. Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, Fourth floor middle window with Ruth Nelson
Hughes, Carol South Western Publishing employee, 2nd floor TSBD, Second floor window alone
Jacob, Stella Billing dept typist, TSBD since July 1963 South side of Elm (with Sharon Simmons [Mrs Nelson], Jeanne Holt)
Jarman, James Earl "Junior" Black checker at TSBD TSBD, Fifth floor window
Johnson, Judy Marie TSBD employee on 2nd floor. Did not return to TSBD after shooting SW corner of Elm and Houston with Holt, Jacob, Richey, Carolyn Arnold, Betty Dragoo.
Jones, Carl Edward Black order filler at TSBD TSBD, front steps w/Roy Truly, Campbell, Reid, Lovelady
Jones, Spaulden Earnest Manager of MacMillan Co., at a restaurant at time of assassination
Junker, Herbert L. MacMillan Co. employee, at a restaurant at time of assassination
Kaiser, Frankie Absent from work on 11/22/1963; found a clip supposedly belonged to LHO
Kounas, Dolores Arlene McGraw-Hill Publishing employee, third floor Elm & Houston SW corner with Roberta Parker and Lloyd Viles
Lawrence, Patricia Ann MacMillan Co. employee North side of Elm in front of TSBD with Lucy Whitaker
Lewis, Roy Edward Black warehouse worker TSBD, front entrance by himself
Lovelady, Billy Nolan Stock clerk, first floor, probably man seen in doorway in Altgens photo TSBD, front steps (with William Shelley, Sarah Stanton)
Lovelady, Dottie Absent from work on 11/22/1963
McCulley, Judith Louise Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, front steps with Mrs Charles Davis
Molina, Joe R. Credit Manager at TSBD, second floor TSBD, front steps with Otis Williams and Pauline Sanders
Nelson, Ruth Smith Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, Fourth floor window, east side with Yola Hopson
Nelson, Sharon Clerk, TSBD On Elm St halfway between TU and TSBD, with Holt and Jacob
Norman, Harold Dean Warehouse worker TSBD, Fifth floor window (with Williams and Jarman)
Palmer, Helen L. McGraw-Hill Book Co. employee, third floor; not at work on 11/22
Parker, Roberta McGraw-Hill employee, third floor Across street from TSBD w/Delores Kounas, Lloyd Viles
Piper, Eddie Black janitor at TSBD TSBD, First floor window
Rachley, Virgie (Mrs Donald Baker) A clerk at the TSBD, second floor In front of TSBD entrance with Dragoo, Carolyn Arnold, Judy Johnson, Bonnie Richey
Reed, Carol Southwestern Publishing employee Elm Street halfway between TU and TSBD (w/Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery)
Reed, Martha Biller, TSBD North side of Elm, between Record and Houston Sts
Reese, Madie Belle MacMillan employee, third floor TSBD, front steps (w/Ruth Dean)
Reid, Mrs. Robert A. Clerical supervisor, TSBD TSBD, front entrance (with Roy Truly and Ochus Campbell)
Richey, Bonnie Secretary, TSBD In front of TSBD (w/Ochus Campbell, Carolyn Arnold, Virgie Baker, Betty Dragoo, Judy Johnson)
Sanders, Pauline Clerk-accountant, TSBD, second floor TSBD, front entrance (w/Sarah Stanton)
Shelley, William H. 37 years old, Oswald's supervisor TSBD, front entrance (Billy Lovelady in front of him, also near Frazier, Sarah Stanton and Carolyn Arnold)
Shields, Edward Black shipping clerk at N. Houston warehouse On Main St with Charles Givens and James Lacy (in front of Mullendore's Cafeteria, 601 Main St.)
Smith, Gordon Not interviewed by FBI
Springer, Pearl Cutting room of TSBD? Close to SE corner of Elm & Houston
Stansbery, Joyce Maurine American Book Co., third floor North side of Elm
Stanton, Sarah D. Clerk, TSBD TSBD, front entrance (w/William Shelley, Otis Williams, R.E. Sanders, Billy Lovelady)
Styles, Sandra K. Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor TSBD, 4th floor window (w/Dorothy Garner, Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams)
Thornton, Betty Jean Scott-Foresman employee, fourth floor In front of TSBD (with Jane Berry)
Truly, Roy Sansom Superintendent TSBD TSBD, front entrance (with Ochus Campbell)
Viles, Lloyd R. McGraw-Hill Co., third floor Across street from TSBD (w/Dolores Kounas and Roberta Parker)
West, Troy Eugene Black wrapper, TSBD First floor TSBD (did not witness)
Westbrook, Karen South Western Publishing employee, 2nd floor North side of Elm halfway between TSBD and TU (w/Gloria Calvery, Carol Reed, Karan Hicks)
Wester, Franklin Emmett Stockman at North Houston warehouse since 1/1963; saw Frazier morning of 11/22/63
Whatley, Vida Lee Lyons and Carnahan Publishing secretary, was shopping on Elm St, did not witness assassination
Whitaker, Lucy (Lupe) Stenographer, MacMillan Co, TSBD Elm Street, north side in front of TSBD (w/Patricia Ann Lawrence)
Williams, Bonnie Ray Black checker, TSBD since Sept 1963 TSBD, fifth floor window (with Norman and Jarman)
Williams, Mary Lee Allyn and Bacon employee, third floor North side of Elm, just west of TSBD (w/ Sue Dickerson, Billie Clay, Ruth Hendrix. Mrs John Hawkins and son)
Williams, Otis Neville Bookkeeping supervisor, TSBD Front steps TSBD
Wilson, Steven F. Vice President of SW division of Allyn and Bacon, third floor TSBD, 3rd floor window

Nice work Tracy.

[Albert Doyle]

I don't think it's Lovelady because you can see his receding hairline head off to the right in the "Prayer Man" photo.

[Ivan De Mey]

This is Prayer Man. The still is from the Darnell-film, taken moments after the fatal shots, just before officer Marrion Baker runs into the TSBD. Prayer Man seems to be holding something.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5550[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]5551[/ATTACH]

CE 150, the shirt Oswald was wearing at work, seems to match the Prayer Man shirt.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5552[/ATTACH]


From the Fritz-notes:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5553[/ATTACH]

"claims 2nd floor coke when off came in to 1st fl had lunch out whith Bill Shelley in front"
The extra space between between the words "coke" and "when" indicate the beginning of a new sentence (Fritz doesn't use punctuation).
So it reads: "When officer came in to first floor I was having lunch out with Bill Shelley in front"

[Albert Doyle]

In my opinion it is ridiculous to suggest Oswald was out front having lunch with Bill Shelley during the assassination and no one noticed him or gave testimony.

I mean anything else is trying to resuscitate the Oswald out front in Altgens theory. If you think about it that theory says Oswald was eating lunch out front with Bill Shelley, even in the Prayer Man photo. We know that isn't so.

"claims 2nd floor coke when off came in to 1st fl had lunch out whith Bill Shelley in front"

More likely:


Claims he was having lunch with a Coke on 2nd floor when officer came in.


Then went down to 1st floor after he had lunch.


Went out of building with Bill Shelley in front.



I think people are making the mistake of not seeing Fritz, in his hurried shorthand, omitted the part in the brackets - [down] to 1st fl [after I] had lunch.