David, you are right. CE 150 is the shirt Oswald wore when he was arrested... my mistake. I should have posted a picture of CE 151 instead, which Murphy argues was the "reddish" shirt Oswald left at his room at North Beckley Avenue.
Maybe the Fritz-note should be interpreted in the way you describe, but wouldn't Fritz have used a capital T for the "to" then? Like he did on this page of the note: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...elPageId=7 (second line "Time of filming")
But I admit this is a bit of a weak point in Murphy's reasoning. Because if it's an ongoing sentence then Fritz could have written the "to" right behind the "in".
I don't know of any pictures of Shelley at the TSBD, but Gerda Dunckel claims she identified Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch-film, as both are leaving the TSBD:
Ivan De Mey Wrote:David, you are right. CE 150 is the shirt Oswald wore when he was arrested... my mistake. I should have posted a picture of CE 151 instead, which Murphy argues was the "reddish" shirt Oswald left at his room at North Beckley Avenue.
Maybe the Fritz-note should be interpreted in the way you describe, but wouldn't Fritz have used a capital T for the "to" then? Like he did on this page of the note: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...elPageId=7 (second line "Time of filming")
But I admit this is a bit of a weak point in Murphy's reasoning. Because if it's an ongoing sentence then Fritz could have written the "to" right behind the "in".
I don't know of any pictures of Shelley at the TSBD, but Gerda Dunckel claims she identified Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch-film, as both are leaving the TSBD:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5599[/ATTACH]
Ivan -
Take a look at all the other "t"'s in the notes... the small ones seem to have a loop above the crossed "t" part yet there are alos larger "T"'s.
The word "to" in the middle of a sentence appears a few times and looks more like a small "t" than capital....
Also appears that "... off(icer) came in" seems to complete a thought following the word "when". The same thing does not apply to the following "to"
which appears to also convey a complete thought - "to 1st floor had lunch" and then goes on tot he next thought... "out front ...."
----
Is it possible that the man in the white shirt and tie is Shelley? Given where he says he was and with who he was... there are not too many other options for SHELLEY...
Sean wrote: He (Pryaer-man) can't be Shelley--who was (again, per his own and Lovelady's testimony) with Lovelady out on the 'island' at this time--and who has been pretty securely identified in 11/22 images as having worn a dark suit and tie that day.
Of course Shelley does not corroborate the "Oswald out front with him" story... yet he also does not move to the island until after the shots
Mr. SHELLEY - In my office next to Mr. Truly's and 1 ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front,
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Trying not to be uber paranoid... Mr. Ball here cuts Lovelady off as he is telling us who was with him... "and right behind me -////cut" and we never get back to who he was going to name... he had already mentioned SHELLEY (who I happen to think is the man in the tie).
Mr. BALL - Who was with you? Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
28-12-2013, 08:07 PM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2013, 05:27 AM by Albert Doyle.)
Different evidence bears different weight. The factor of Fritz being confirmed as quoting Oswald as being on the 2nd floor supersedes any Baker-based logic that puts Oswald out on the steps during the shooting. This is reinforced by Carolyn Arnold's witnessing of Oswald in the lunchroom at 12:25. At the point of Darnell there were simply too many non-Frazier people who would have passed Prayer Man while going in to the Depository.
Albert Doyle Wrote:Different evidence bears different weight. The factor of Fritz being confirmed as quoting Oswald as being on the 2nd floor supersedes any Baker-based logic that puts Oswald out on the steps during the shooting. This is reinforced by Carolyn Arnold's witnessing of Oswald in the lunchroom at 12:25. At the point of Darnell there were simply too many non-Frazier people who would have passed Prayer Man while going in to the Depository.
.
I'm not seeing a Lee Harvey Oswald on the porch/landing area outside the TSBD front entrance. Prayer Man, to me is possibly a female with her arms in a purse/strap holding position. I am thinking there is/was a center railing on the doorway steps, but I am not sure, and I have long believed that the angle of the Algens Photo makes Billy Nolan Lovelady appear father to his right than he actually is in the picture. To me, BNL is just to his right of the center of the top of the stairs, at least at the time of the photo. Not trying for an argument, JMO.
LR Trotter Wrote:Prayer Man, to me is possibly a female with her arms in a purse/strap holding position.
I have a good eye for such things. If you look really closely Prayer Man has a side part to his hair and receding hairline making it very unlikely it's a woman.
LR Trotter Wrote:I am thinking there is/was a center railing on the doorway steps, but I am not sure, and I have long believed that the angle of the Algens Photo makes Billy Nolan Lovelady appear father to his right than he actually is in the picture. To me, BNL is just to his right of the center of the top of the stairs, at least at the time of the photo. Not trying for an argument, JMO.
::doorhide::
About right. And it is absolutely Lovelady. I don't care what the less capable in analysis say.
As for Prayer Man I'm surprised DiEugenio doesn't realize how many people would have passed right next to him by the time of Darnell.
Albert Doyle Wrote:Different evidence bears different weight. The factor of Fritz being confirmed as quoting Oswald as being on the 2nd floor supersedes any Baker-based logic that puts Oswald out on the steps during the shooting. This is reinforced by Carolyn Arnold's witnessing of Oswald in the lunchroom at 12:25. At the point of Darnell there were simply too many non-Frazier people who would have passed Prayer Man while going in to the Depository.
.
I'm not seeing a Lee Harvey Oswald on the porch/landing area outside the TSBD front entrance. Prayer Man, to me is possibly a female with her arms in a purse/strap holding position. I am thinking there is/was a center railing on the doorway steps, but I am not sure, and I have long believed that the angle of the Algens Photo makes Billy Nolan Lovelady appear father to his right than he actually is in the picture. To me, BNL is just to his right of the center of the top of the stairs, at least at the time of the photo. Not trying for an argument, JMO.
::doorhide::
I understood that Carolyn said she sees OSWALD between the front doors and the double doors of the 1st floor warehouse and between 12:15 and 12:20, and had seen him in the lunchroom earlier with Mrs Reid and others....
That Prayer-man was seen by so many passing up those steps and not a single witnesses testimony is corrected by stating "but I told them OSWALD was right there on the steps...." while so much testimony was corrected... could every single bit of reference and evidence to THAT being Oswald been that well removed from history?
This being an FBI recap, I assume they fudged the times. Seems they also mix up the 1st floor domino room and 2nd floor lunch room as to where Arnold sees him as well in the other statement...
The investigative journalist, Anthony Summers, also interviewed Carolyn Arnold in late 1978. He quotes her as saying that "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination, I went into the lunchroom on the second floor", where she saw Oswald; see Anthony Summers, Not in Your Lifetime: The Assassination of JFK, Headline, 2013, p.92.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5608[/ATTACH]
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
I'm pretty sure DiEugenio covered this by showing when Carloyn Arnold was finally shown her FBI statement decades later she was shocked because it wasn't what she said. I believe she said she told FBI she saw Oswald in the lunchroom at 12:25. FBI took the liberty of changing it to 12:15 under the assumption Arnold made a mistake because Oswald had to be in the sniper's nest by 12:25.
I wanted to focus on this question again as we ID those on the stairs...
Is there any reason to believe that shirt-tie man behind Lovelady is NOT Shelley? There were not too many who worked at the TSBD wearing a suit that day and saying they were on the steps...
He also does not move to that island and off with Arce until a bit later....
How many others in any other image/film available were wearing an open shirt with white T underneath in ALL of DP...
(I am going thru everything I have access to yet if anyone knows of any image of anyone dressed like that, a pointer would be greatly appreciated.
If there is no one dressed like that from either in or out of the TSBD that might help continue narrowing the list of potentials...
DJ
David Josephs Wrote:[quote=Ivan De Mey]David, you are right. CE 150 is the shirt Oswald wore when he was arrested... my mistake. I should have posted a picture of CE 151 instead, which Murphy argues was the "reddish" shirt Oswald left at his room at North Beckley Avenue.
Maybe the Fritz-note should be interpreted in the way you describe, but wouldn't Fritz have used a capital T for the "to" then? Like he did on this page of the note: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...elPageId=7 (second line "Time of filming")
But I admit this is a bit of a weak point in Murphy's reasoning. Because if it's an ongoing sentence then Fritz could have written the "to" right behind the "in".
I don't know of any pictures of Shelley at the TSBD, but Gerda Dunckel claims she identified Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch-film, as both are leaving the TSBD:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5599[/ATTACH]
Ivan -
Take a look at all the other "t"'s in the notes... the small ones seem to have a loop above the crossed "t" part yet there are alos larger "T"'s.
The word "to" in the middle of a sentence appears a few times and looks more like a small "t" than capital....
Also appears that "... off(icer) came in" seems to complete a thought following the word "when". The same thing does not apply to the following "to"
which appears to also convey a complete thought - "to 1st floor had lunch" and then goes on tot he next thought... "out front ...."
----
Is it possible that the man in the white shirt and tie is Shelley? Given where he says he was and with who he was... there are not too many other options for SHELLEY...
Sean wrote: He (Pryaer-man) can't be Shelley--who was (again, per his own and Lovelady's testimony) with Lovelady out on the 'island' at this time--and who has been pretty securely identified in 11/22 images as having worn a dark suit and tie that day.
Of course Shelley does not corroborate the "Oswald out front with him" story... yet he also does not move to the island until after the shots
Mr. SHELLEY - In my office next to Mr. Truly's and 1 ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front,
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Trying not to be uber paranoid... Mr. Ball here cuts Lovelady off as he is telling us who was with him... "and right behind me -////cut" and we never get back to who he was going to name... he had already mentioned SHELLEY (who I happen to think is the man in the tie).
Mr. BALL - Who was with you? Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
The man in the suit behind Lovelady looks a little heavier than Shelley to me. His tie doesn't hang straight down, but seems to rest on his belly.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5611[/ATTACH]
Something else. People have offered several suggestions as to what Prayer Man is holding in front of him: a coke-bottle, a camera, an apple, a sandwich...
I would like to make another suggestion: a coffee mug. After all, it was lunch time...
David Josephs Wrote:I gather you feel the same way about Norman/Jarman/Williams who, knowing a shot was fired from just 10 feet from their heads, decide not only NOT to yell out the windows where they are sitting - not one of them - but to sit there as 2 more shots are fired, supposedly - and then run to the WEST END of the 5th floor.
How about any number of witnesses who both assumed a shot from the TSBD and neither say anything about it WHILE running back into the building....?
What it appears you are doing is PROVING the shots could not have come from the TSBD... is THAT the point Don? If it is, I'm right with you..
David,
yes indeed, those three stooges on the fifth give me personally more than enough to believe not one single unsuppressed shot came from those windows above them.
It would seem you view them in a similar fashion so what then the difference between those three and Reid?
You believe she(let's be specific) looked above her to see if she could see where the shots were coming from within seconds. I don't.
Why not?
Because this fantasic footage suggests to me that not one single person instinctively knew shots came from above their heads.
Yes the testimony does, in spades but we've already been given a thoroughly reasonable explaination for this phenomenon, twice in this thread.
This is life, people lie, if I've condemned Reid I've condemned the whole of mankind, she did nothing that bad, I'm just simply saying we don't all have to believe everything she said.
Reid isn't being singled out by me, pick another witness pointing to the upper floors in those first minutes and I'll explain why I believe it had nothing to do with what they heard.
IMHO every single reaction you see in both films is in response to a visual clue, at street level.
There's one exception but I'm not seeing individuals reacting to a shooting.
I say this end of Elm was clueless.
Shots came from this end sure, Daltex, Records and/or TSBD I've never claimed to know exactly where, I like the former but wherever they came from, I'm content atm with this impression that no one could pin-point 'em without a hint and that indeed is a thing we've heard on occasion in the past. The echo chamber that was DP.
Even Bowers, resident in that RRY for six years, told us he couldn't always tell which end of Elm a sound came from.
