Sean Murphy's research deserves more

[David Josephs]

I gather you feel the same way about Norman/Jarman/Williams who, knowing a shot was fired from just 10 feet from their heads, decide not only NOT to yell out the windows where they are sitting - not one of them - but to sit there as 2 more shots are fired, supposedly - and then run to the WEST END of the 5th floor.

How about any number of witnesses who both assumed a shot from the TSBD and neither say anything about it WHILE running back into the building....?

What it appears you are doing is PROVING the shots could not have come from the TSBD... is THAT the point Don? If it is, I'm right with you..

David,
yes indeed, those three stooges on the fifth give me personally more than enough to believe not one single unsuppressed shot came from those windows above them.
It would seem you view them in a similar fashion so what then the difference between those three and Reid?
You believe she(let's be specific) looked above her to see if she could see where the shots were coming from within seconds. I don't.
Why not?
Because this fantasic footage suggests to me that not one single person instinctively knew shots came from above their heads.

Yes the testimony does, in spades but we've already been given a thoroughly reasonable explaination for this phenomenon, twice in this thread.
This is life, people lie, if I've condemned Reid I've condemned the whole of mankind, she did nothing that bad, I'm just simply saying we don't all have to believe everything she said.

Reid isn't being singled out by me, pick another witness pointing to the upper floors in those first minutes and I'll explain why I believe it had nothing to do with what they heard.
IMHO every single reaction you see in both films is in response to a visual clue, at street level.
There's one exception but I'm not seeing individuals reacting to a shooting.
I say this end of Elm was clueless.

Shots came from this end sure, Daltex, Records and/or TSBD I've never claimed to know exactly where, I like the former but wherever they came from, I'm content atm with this impression that no one could pin-point 'em without a hint and that indeed is a thing we've heard on occasion in the past. The echo chamber that was DP.
Even Bowers, resident in that RRY for six years, told us he couldn't always tell which end of Elm a sound came from.

Don,

Then as I say... I'm right with you... Lane clued me into the "ground level sounds"... I think the looking up may have had something to do with the pigeons that all rose in unison off the HERTZ sign after the first shot....
but in the end these ground level noises cannot be generated from 70 feet up in the air.... when I looked into the effects of sound at that distance it became clear that these men did NOT experience a rifle shot within 10 feet of their position.
It's alos very possible that the black man seen in the SE window was Williams checking out the scene and then back to his lunch... but why squeeze into the Sniper's nest area when there is a wiondow directly infront of him..

What makes REID so special is she is the only one to ID "an" OSWALD as he is leaving.. (it is my firm belief that this is LEE in the Tshirt and that CRAIG sees HARVEY)
Do you question whether she sees this person or not... or simply that she helps confirm that shots from the TSBD may have been staged.... (See Euins - he has no reason to lie yet the FBI has every reason to change his testimony)


So what I am understanding is that we'd need to see more evidence of witness reaction to a shot at the top of ELM. (from what I've read the openness of the RR yard would NOt cause the kind of echoes heard at the TOP of ELM due to all the buildings up there... a shot from the RR yard would sound like it came from the TSBD corner yet a shot from up at ELM would sound like it cam efrom up there to those down by the RR yard and Overpass...

Mr. STERN - What was your impression about the source of these noises, if you had one?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where I was.

Oh, but the THIRD shot... I find the reaction in NIX by the motocops tells us EXACTLY where this shot or shots came from:


[ATTACH=CONFIG]5616[/ATTACH]


In that clip we see BAKER running to the TSBD. At the same time a number of people out front are looking up while others are scrambling toward the building for "safety"... And I would bet - as you say - that not too many of these people would testify to shots FROM the TSBD... I also do not think it fair to assume rational responses during an unusual and irrational act. INSIDE a building, any building, has to be better than out in the open... yet as we both agree, the initial reactions suggest shots from BOTH the top of ELM and down by the RR yard... it's not an either or proposition, right?


[ATTACH=CONFIG]5617[/ATTACH]

Mr. BELIN - All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?
Mr. BAKER - Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.
Mr. BELIN - What would the building right in front of you be?
Mr. BAKER - It would be this Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN - That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BAKER - That would be the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN - All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?
Mr. BAKER - On the northeast corner.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?
Mr. BAKER - Y[B]es, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.[/B]
Mr. BELIN - From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?
Mr. BAKER - I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner.

Yet Euins does say he sees the rifle fire from the 5th or 6th floor window (I have learned that which floor these people say is really inconsequential as we do not know what they meant at the time... by the WC testimony and the marking of exhibits - who knows what has transpired)

Problem is I have yet to finds Euins in the spot he marks in CE365 http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc..._0493a.htm

Have you any luck?

Mr. EUINS. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing right in there, at this point B.
Mr. SPECTER. At point B, on 365?
Mr. EUINS. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again.
Mr. SPECTER. The question I have for you now is where were you when he fired on that fourth time.
Mr. EUINS. I was still behind point B.
Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window.

-----------------

Back to Prayer-man..

I have to disagree with Ivan, I see no other possibility for SHELLEY other than that man with a suit and tie.... We have to remember that potion of the image is very small... details are blurred... if anyone can place SHELLEY in any other images on the TSBD steps... please do.

From a revisited 1st look, Prayer-man does appear to be quite a bit wider and more stout than Oswald...
and Oswald supposedly said he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom - at least according to those reliable sources: Fritz/Bookout/Holmes/Kelley

Will keep on pluggin away at this... it has to be SOMEONE...

DJ

[Donald Manning]

O

[Tony Fratini]

I gather you feel the same way about Norman/Jarman/Williams who, knowing a shot was fired from just 10 feet from their heads, decide not only NOT to yell out the windows where they are sitting - not one of them - but to sit there as 2 more shots are fired, supposedly - and then run to the WEST END of the 5th floor.

How about any number of witnesses who both assumed a shot from the TSBD and neither say anything about it WHILE running back into the building....?

What it appears you are doing is PROVING the shots could not have come from the TSBD... is THAT the point Don? If it is, I'm right with you..

David,
yes indeed, those three stooges on the fifth give me personally more than enough to believe not one single unsuppressed shot came from those windows above them.
It would seem you view them in a similar fashion so what then the difference between those three and Reid?
You believe she(let's be specific) looked above her to see if she could see where the shots were coming from within seconds. I don't.b
Why not?
Because this fantasic footage suggests to me that not one single person instinctively knew shots came from above their heads.

Yes the testimony does, in spades but we've already been given a thoroughly reasonable explaination for this phenomenon, twice in this thread.
This is life, people lie, if I've condemned Reid I've condemned the whole of mankind, she did nothing that bad, I'm just simply saying we don't all have to believe everything she said.

Reid isn't being singled out by me, pick another witness pointing to the upper floors in those first minutes and I'll explain why I believe it had nothing to do with what they heard.
IMHO every single reaction you see in both films is in response to a visual clue, at street level.
There's one exception but I'm not seeing individuals reacting to a shooting.
I say this end of Elm was clueless.

Shots came from this end sure, Daltex, Records and/or TSBD I've never claimed to know exactly where, I like the former but wherever they came from, I'm content atm with this impression that no one could pin-point 'em without a hint and that indeed is a thing we've heard on occasion in the past. The echo chamber that was DP.
Even Bowers, resident in that RRY for six years, told us he couldn't always tell which end of Elm a sound came from.

Don,

Then as I say... I'm right with you... Lane clued me into the "ground level sounds"... I think the looking up may have had something to do with the pigeons that all rose in unison off the HERTZ sign after the first shot....
but in the end these ground level noises cannot be generated from 70 feet up in the air.... when I looked into the effects of sound at that distance it became clear that these men did NOT experience a rifle shot within 10 feet of their position.
It's alos very possible that the black man seen in the SE window was Williams checking out the scene and then back to his lunch... but why squeeze into the Sniper's nest area when there is a wiondow directly infront of him..

What makes REID so special is she is the only one to ID "an" OSWALD as he is leaving.. (it is my firm belief that this is LEE in the Tshirt and that CRAIG sees HARVEY)
Do you question whether she sees this person or not... or simply that she helps confirm that shots from the TSBD may have been staged.... (See Euins - he has no reason to lie yet the FBI has every reason to change his testimony)


So what I am understanding is that we'd need to see more evidence of witness reaction to a shot at the top of ELM. (from what I've read the openness of the RR yard would NOt cause the kind of echoes heard at the TOP of ELM due to all the buildings up there... a shot from the RR yard would sound like it came from the TSBD corner yet a shot from up at ELM would sound like it cam efrom up there to those down by the RR yard and Overpass...

Mr. STERN - What was your impression about the source of these noises, if you had one?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where I was.

Oh, but the THIRD shot... I find the reaction in NIX by the motocops tells us EXACTLY where this shot or shots came from:


[ATTACH=CONFIG]5616[/ATTACH]


In that clip we see BAKER running to the TSBD. At the same time a number of people out front are looking up while others are scrambling toward the building for "safety"... And I would bet - as you say - that not too many of these people would testify to shots FROM the TSBD... I also do not think it fair to assume rational responses during an unusual and irrational act. INSIDE a building, any building, has to be better than out in the open... yet as we both agree, the initial reactions suggest shots from BOTH the top of ELM and down by the RR yard... it's not an either or proposition, right?


[ATTACH=CONFIG]5617[/ATTACH]

Mr. BELIN - All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?
Mr. BAKER - Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.
Mr. BELIN - What would the building right in front of you be?
Mr. BAKER - It would be this Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN - That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. BAKER - That would be the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN - All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?
Mr. BAKER - On the northeast corner.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?
Mr. BAKER - Y[B]es, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.[/B]
Mr. BELIN - From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?
Mr. BAKER - I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner.

Yet Euins does say he sees the rifle fire from the 5th or 6th floor window (I have learned that which floor these people say is really inconsequential as we do not know what they meant at the time... by the WC testimony and the marking of exhibits - who knows what has transpired)

Problem is I have yet to finds Euins in the spot he marks in CE365 http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc..._0493a.htm

Have you any luck?

Mr. EUINS. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing right in there, at this point B.
Mr. SPECTER. At point B, on 365?
Mr. EUINS. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again.
Mr. SPECTER. The question I have for you now is where were you when he fired on that fourth time.
Mr. EUINS. I was still behind point B.
Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window.

-----------------

Back to Prayer-man..

I have to disagree with Ivan, I see no other possibility for SHELLEY other than that man with a suit and tie.... We have to remember that potion of the image is very small... details are blurred... if anyone can place SHELLEY in any other images on the TSBD steps... please do.

From a revisited 1st look, Prayer-man does appear to be quite a bit wider and more stout than Oswald...
and Oswald supposedly said he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom - at least according to those reliable sources: Fritz/Bookout/Holmes/Kelley

Will keep on pluggin away at this... it has to be SOMEONE...

DJ

David,

what is interesting and bizarre at the same time, is that if you check out the WC testimonies or FBI statements of the people that were on the front steps of the TSBD, at the time the parade went by, each person could account for someone else that they were next to on the stairs. The only person that isn't mentioned nor accounted for is PM.

Some have suggested that he was a random stranger in DP who just happened to position himself in one of the worse spots to watch the parade from. PM and BNL are in the same frame, so we can discount BNL as being PM.

To me , it suggests that PM came out to the back steps at the very last moment to see what was going on. The door will open to that side. It is unbelievable that no one mentions PM, yet Frazier was only feet away from him.
I also believe that PM had a drink bottle with him. There are photos showing the presence of a soda pop bottle and a small lunch sack on the steps where PM was standing.

If PM was LHO, who did Baker, Truly and Reid encounter on the second floor? Why didn't Geneva Hine see the Reid/LHO encounter?

[Albert Doyle]

[ It is unbelievable that no one mentions PM, yet Frazier was only feet away from him.

Which is exactly why it can't be Oswald because at that point he would have had many people walk right by him. Use some common sense. Look at the number of people that are staring PM right in the face in that picture.

[Tony Fratini]

[ It is unbelievable that no one mentions PM, yet Frazier was only feet away from him.

Which is exactly why it can't be Oswald because at that point he would have had many people walk right by him. Use some common sense. Look at the number of people that are staring PM right in the face in that picture.

Hi Albert,

that is an excellent point. At the very least, one would have expected someone on those steps to have said something as to who was standing in the corner, especially if they were a fellow worker. We have zip. Several of the people who were on those steps failed to see officer Baker run past them. How can that be? This included Joe Molina.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.

If PM was Molina, why didn't anyone ID him?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders.


PM, who ever he was remains unknown. How can that be?

it is a real that BNL didn't complete his sentence.

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.

PM was behind BNL.

[Albert Doyle]

Prayer Man is too stocky.


Carolyn Arnold originally told FBI that Oswald was in the lunchroom at 12:25.

[Tony Fratini]

Prayer Man is too stocky.


Carolyn Arnold originally told FBI that Oswald was in the lunchroom at 12:25.

Albert,

from the magnification of the image of PM, there is a lot of distortion and noise. It is impossible to ID PM. He either is LHO or someone else that no one can vouch for.

I believe that LHO was no higher than the second floor when the shots were fired. I am though very suspicious of the second floor encounter. As you know Bakers first day affidavit never mentions such an encounter. Hine never sees the LHO/Reid encounter. How does one explain that?

Who do think PM is? G Mack showed the Darnell frame to Frazier and he couldn't ID anyone. It is very likely it is Frazier who is standing on the top step within feet of PM.

[LR Trotter]

I suppose I am the only person to believe that the person identified as "PrayerMan" is quite possibly a female, somewhat stocky with short hair, and maybe middle aged, and holding their arms that way to hold a purse by the strap. Yes, I suppose I'm the only one.
::

[LR Trotter]

I just recently noticed something in the Nix film regarding the lady seen walking towards the JFK limo from the Main St area. I do not recall her name, but I believe she was identified, and it appears she reacts to the JFK fatal headshot by stopping and/or changing her direction of travel. I also do not recall that reaction being discussed.
::

[Tony Fratini]

I suppose I am the only person to believe that the person identified as "PrayerMan" is quite possibly a female, somewhat stocky with short hair, and maybe middle aged, and holding their arms that way to hold a purse by the strap. Yes, I suppose I'm the only one.
::

Fair point. You could well be correct, but why would a female place herself in a corner position on the steps behind BNL, and have such a limited view of the President going by? Seems rather pointless.

There were much better vantage positions just a few feet in front. The FBI interviewed all of the workers from the TSBD, all the women who were on the steps stated that they were with someone else, mostly another female(s). This person is an enigma.