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Donald Manning Wrote:Also, if PM hardly moved that means that you can use Darnell to know where PM was stood in Wiegman, which was clearly in the shade because in no way is the light hitting PM's arms comparible to that hitting those south of that position in that moving footage.
For example, just because we see only part of the door frame in this image, does it mean that that part of it was in direct sunlight?
He might be in all shade. You might be right. The glowing back of his hand may just be due to having a better reflective face on what little shade margin light was available. I think it's the back of his hand since it's at the apex of his forearms from his elbows. So Prayer Man could be even with Lovelady on the top step (which would make sense since that was the limit of forward movement). Wiegman is a slightly different angle than Darnell. The rest would have to be figured out by complex photo analysis.
My point was that in order for it to be Oswald he would have had to transit from the 12:25 lunchroom encounter to the front steps, be out shoulder to shoulder with Lovelady and not be witnessed, and then mill amongst those in the doorway and just inside the doorway at the time Baker rushed in, not to mention go back upstairs quickly in order to be seen by Baker and Truly in the lunchroom - all unseen.
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Albert Doyle Wrote:Donald Manning Wrote:Also, if PM hardly moved that means that you can use Darnell to know where PM was stood in Wiegman, which was clearly in the shade because in no way is the light hitting PM's arms comparible to that hitting those south of that position in that moving footage.
For example, just because we see only part of the door frame in this image, does it mean that that part of it was in direct sunlight?
He might be in all shade. You might be right. The glowing back of his hand may just be due to having a better reflective face on what little shade margin light was available. I think it's the back of his hand since it's at the apex of his forearms from his elbows. So Prayer Man could be even with Lovelady on the top step (which would make sense since that was the limit of forward movement). Wiegman is a slightly different angle than Darnell. The rest would have to be figured out by complex photo analysis.
My point was that in order for it to be Oswald he would have had to transit from the 12:25 lunchroom encounter to the front steps, be out shoulder to shoulder with Lovelady and not be witnessed, and then mill amongst those in the doorway and just inside the doorway at the time Baker rushed in, not to mention go back upstairs quickly in order to be seen by Baker and Truly in the lunchroom - all unseen.
Albert, are you aware that the 1st floor lunch room where Oswald often ate lunch, known as the Domino Room, was not the same as the lunch room on the 2nd floor? Are you also aware that the evidence points strongly toward the 2nd floor encounter between Oswald, Truly and Baker being a fabrication?
If Oswald had been in the 1st floor lunch room, what would be so difficult about his stepping outside at the last moment before JFK arrived? The TSBD is not that big of a building. Do you think it would take more than 30 seconds to go from the 1st floor lunch room to the front steps?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
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Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Albert, are you aware that the 1st floor lunch room where Oswald often ate lunch, known as the Domino Room, was not the same as the lunch room on the 2nd floor? Are you also aware that the evidence points strongly toward the 2nd floor encounter between Oswald, Truly and Baker being a fabrication?
If Oswald had been in the 1st floor lunch room, what would be so difficult about his stepping outside at the last moment before JFK arrived? The TSBD is not that big of a building. Do you think it would take more than 30 seconds to go from the 1st floor lunch room to the front steps?
I already answered that but you ignored it. To say what you are saying would require Carolyn Arnold to be a liar. I don't think she was a liar. In my mind FBI's desperate need to alter Carolyn Arnold's time to 12:15 is a strong sign they were trying to cover-up something they knew was true. We're right back to where we were before. In my mind it is much more likely Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom from 12:25 to 12:31:30 than making this huge trip and being on the front steps in the wide open without being seen. Also, I think your claim that there's strong evidence the Baker/Oswald encounter was fabricated is based mainly on your affidavit argument which I showed could have had many other reasonable explanations that you ignored.
Bob, how do you explain your Oswald Prayer Man milling about with the people in the front door during the Baker entry and not being seen?
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Bob,
After having read the whole thread at EF, I have had many emotions and thoughts about this. My evaluation: that very well might be Oswald on the front steps. It certainly was not Lovelady since his whereabouts are fairly well documented. It would take more to make it near 100% certain.
My emotional reaction: shit, he was telling the truth, again. But secondly, the Spooky part of it was his apparent quiet appearance on the entry way only about the time the limo passed and the eerie stillness of his body back in the shadows. Camera? Great place to avoid lens flair. Coke? Even worse. Who was LHO? My speculation LHO was in on the plot and a willing participant. But is he the Lee who Douglass describes as trying to warn the SS that there was going to be a plot in Dallas -- the LHO who was trying to stop the murder of the JFK he loved and adored? Is sick at heart hoping that 'they' would miss? Or is he following the Drago line that there was going to be a fake attempt on JFK's life and -- 'Oh, Christ, it wasn't an exercise. I'm screwed. I better get to my contact at the Texas Theater.'
"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I
"We will lead every revolution against us." --Theodore Herzl
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Albert Doyle Wrote:Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Albert, are you aware that the 1st floor lunch room where Oswald often ate lunch, known as the Domino Room, was not the same as the lunch room on the 2nd floor? Are you also aware that the evidence points strongly toward the 2nd floor encounter between Oswald, Truly and Baker being a fabrication?
If Oswald had been in the 1st floor lunch room, what would be so difficult about his stepping outside at the last moment before JFK arrived? The TSBD is not that big of a building. Do you think it would take more than 30 seconds to go from the 1st floor lunch room to the front steps?
I already answered that but you ignored it. To say what you are saying would require Carolyn Arnold to be a liar. I don't think she was a liar. In my mind FBI's desperate need to alter Carolyn Arnold's time to 12:15 is a strong sign they were trying to cover-up something they knew was true. We're right back to where we were before. In my mind it is much more likely Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom from 12:25 to 12:31:30 than making this huge trip and being on the front steps in the wide open without being seen. Also, I think your claim that there's strong evidence the Baker/Oswald encounter was fabricated is based mainly on your affidavit argument which I showed could have had many other reasonable explanations that you ignored.
Bob, how do you explain your Oswald Prayer Man milling about with the people in the front door during the Baker entry and not being seen?
Arnold maintained she saw Oswald closer to 12:25 on the 1st floor. If he ate his lunch on the 1st floor, he had plenty of time to go to the Coke machine on the 2nd floor, buy a Coke, return to the 1st floor and check out what all the excitement was outside; well before the motorcade arrived at 12:30. Remember, the stairs to the 2nd floor were close to the front entrance of the TSBD. She could have seen him going to or returning from the 2nd floor. One sighting at 12:25 does not place him on the 2nd floor for an extended period of time.
I would explain it the same way I would explain how Baker, in full uniform and a white helmet, ran past Frazier and Frazier has no recollection of it. Judging by where Frazier is seen standing, Baker likely had to push him out of the way, but Frazier draws a total blank on seeing Baker. A good term for it might be "induced amnesia". Also, if Oswald appeared at the last second, those people in front of him would have their full attention on the motorcade.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
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Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Arnold maintained she saw Oswald closer to 12:25 on the 1st floor. If he ate his lunch on the 1st floor, he had plenty of time to go to the Coke machine on the 2nd floor, buy a Coke, return to the 1st floor and check out what all the excitement was outside; well before the motorcade arrived at 12:30. Remember, the stairs to the 2nd floor were close to the front entrance of the TSBD. She could have seen him going to or returning from the 2nd floor. One sighting at 12:25 does not place him on the 2nd floor for an extended period of time.
Unless I'm wrong I think Mrs Arnold said she went for her regular drink from the water fountain and saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom sitting at the table eating his lunch. Unless of course you are trying to mix references and cite Mrs Arnold's alleged ground floor sighting of Oswald. However I believe there's a clean quote where Mrs Arnold was shown her FBI statement years later and corrected it saying that she said 12:25 in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Also the context was FBI took the liberty to alter it to 12:15 because Oswald had to be upstairs preparing for his shooting at 12:25. That context was clearly in reference to the 2nd floor luchroom so I don't think you are accurately reflecting the facts.
No, one sighting doesn't guarantee a stationary location, however the alternative requires some extreme exposure and movements that simply saying it doesn't place him for an extended period of time doesn't really provide an adequate answer for. That movement would require a series of witnesses for which there are none. If the absence of Oswald on the steps with Victoria Adams exonerates him why doesn't it here?
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:I would explain it the same way I would explain how Baker, in full uniform and a white helmet, ran past Frazier and Frazier has no recollection of it. Judging by where Frazier is seen standing, Baker likely had to push him out of the way, but Frazier draws a total blank on seeing Baker. A good term for it might be "induced amnesia". Also, if Oswald appeared at the last second, those people in front of him would have their full attention on the motorcade.
Well, what about all the others? I think what you are writing is actually proof of the opposite of what you are trying to show. If you queried all of the persons on the front steps as to Baker's charge you would find a majority who witnessed it. Frazier's dubious to begin with, so absence of memory from someone who was tracked down at his father's hospital bed and threatened by the same Dallas Police who murdered many witnesses isn't really saying much. "Induced amnesia" indeed. As I said before and you ignored, if you went to the witness template for other Oswald sightings you would see a strong showing of speaking up from Ralph Yates to Carolyn Arnold, to Bogard, to Roger Craig, to Carousel witnesses seeing Oswald in the shadows, and all the other known Oswald sightings I'm sure you're familiar with. There is no such outward, direct case like Oswald standing right in front of everybody on the Depository front steps, with all the dozens of witnesses who would have seen him right in front of them, without any mention at all. You will find no other exposure of Oswald in the assassination with such a 100% consistency of lack of witnessing. What you are doing is trying to place Lee Harvey Oswald in the Assassination's Times Square at high noon without anyone seeing him. Again, to me this is an obvious common sense issue. I think you are trying to suggest silence by intimidation but it just doesn't play against that overall template. Your scenario still requires Oswald to mingle in with the crowd in the doorway where their attention would be on each other at the Baker juncture. It just doesn't wash Bob.
If you go to the Education Forum and scan the thread you'll see plenty of good blow-ups of Darnell. They are clear enough that there's no bottle in Prayer Man's hand, nor is there any camera.
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Albert, please show us a statement where Carolyn Arnold says she saw Oswald on the 2nd floor and not the 1st floor.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
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Are you, Albert and Bob referring to the ground floor/first floor (in British use) or first floor/second floor (in US use) Just for clarification of those non US people reading.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
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Magda Hassan Wrote:Are you, Albert and Bob referring to the ground floor/first floor (in British use) or first floor/second floor (in US use) Just for clarification of those non US people reading.
I'm in Canada, Magden, and we tend to go with the concept of the ground floor as being the 1st floor; at least this is the way in western Canada. Quebec might have a totally different way of describing it, just for the sake of being different.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
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Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Albert, please show us a statement where Carolyn Arnold says she saw Oswald on the 2nd floor and not the 1st floor.
I think it's well known that the researcher who approached Carolyn Arnold and showed her her FBI statement years later got her to say that the reason she went to the lunchroom was for her regular drink of water because she was pregnant. That water fountain was in the second floor lunchroom.
The 2nd floor is generally referred to as the floor on which Baker said he encountered Oswald in the lunchroom.
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