Q re Harvey and Lee

[Albert Doyle]

Probably a good time to return to Harvey and Lee on-topic now.

[LR Trotter]

Probably a good time to return to Harvey and Lee on-topic now.

Admittedly, I have not read John Armstrong's Harvey & Lee, although I am sure I have read quotes as well as analysis of various parts of the story. But, I do wonder, as I wander, about the voice and/or accent and speech patterns of Lee versus Harvey. I would think that his older brother Robert would have noticed anything different. I do believe that at least one imposter was using the Lee H Oswald identidy prior to, and possibly including, 11/22/63-11/24/63.
I also believe, as posted by Mr Josephs, a considerable amount of "Harvey & Lee" history was very possibly "created" after the fact, on paper.
AS for school records and school years, during the 1950s, in at least part of Texas, the traditional school year began in early September and continued through late May, followed by a 3 month summer break. Alternately, for persons born, I think, between September and January, a seperate school year started and went from January to the next January, with the 3 month summer break halfway through each grade level. This continued at least into the 1960s as well. I don't know exactly whether or not the alternate school year has any effect on the Oswald legend, but I do wonder, as I wander.

[Jim Hargrove]

Admittedly, I have not read John Armstrong's Harvey & Lee, although I am sure I have read quotes as well as analysis of various parts of the story. But, I do wonder, as I wander, about the voice and/or accent and speech patterns of Lee versus Harvey. I would think that his older brother Robert would have noticed anything different. I do believe that at least one imposter was using the Lee H Oswald identidy prior to, and possibly including, 11/22/63-11/24/63.
I also believe, as posted by Mr Josephs, a considerable amount of "Harvey & Lee" history was very possibly "created" after the fact, on paper.

David makes an interesting observation about looking backward, but it is also important to remember that what started John Armstrong on this trail of two youths was his interviews with human beings, even more significant than his examination of documents. John talked to eyewitnesses who went to school with one the boys, and who interviewed one of them professionally, one who had an Oswald in her homeroom, another who worked with him at an early job. And it was these human beings, originally more than the documents, that made John see there were contradictions simply impossible to rectify with a single "Lee Harvey Oswald." Many of these interviews are now on YouTube, and they become extraordinarily persuasive as soon as you see how they contradict the official story.

AS for school records and school years, during the 1950s, in at least part of Texas, the traditional school year began in early September and continued through late May, followed by a 3 month summer break. Alternately, for persons born, I think, between September and January, a seperate school year started and went from January to the next January, with the 3 month summer break halfway through each grade level. This continued at least into the 1960s as well. I don't know exactly whether or not the alternate school year has any effect on the Oswald legend, but I do wonder, as I wander.

The easiest way to formally introduce yourself to John's research is to visit his website at: harveyandlee.net
# # # #
A wonderful essay on the earliest years of these children is here: harveyandlee.net/Early/Early.html


Jim

[David Josephs]

Probably a good time to return to Harvey and Lee on-topic now.

Admittedly, I have not read John Armstrong's Harvey & Lee, although I am sure I have read quotes as well as analysis of various parts of the story. But, I do wonder, as I wander, about the voice and/or accent and speech patterns of Lee versus Harvey. I would think that his older brother Robert would have noticed anything different. I do believe that at least one imposter was using the Lee H Oswald identidy prior to, and possibly including, 11/22/63-11/24/63.
I also believe, as posted by Mr Josephs, a considerable amount of "Harvey & Lee" history was very possibly "created" after the fact, on paper.
AS for school records and school years, during the 1950s, in at least part of Texas, the traditional school year began in early September and continued through late May, followed by a 3 month summer break. Alternately, for persons born, I think, between September and January, a seperate school year started and went from January to the next January, with the 3 month summer break halfway through each grade level. This continued at least into the 1960s as well. I don't know exactly whether or not the alternate school year has any effect on the Oswald legend, but I do wonder, as I wander.

While much, imo, was created looking backward to cover a trail in order to create/cover an asset... there is no denying the forward movement of the timeline as well... who ever was setting HARVEY up from an early age to go from whoever he was to his HARVEY identity may not have cared what they looked like... nor the remembrances of Marge's past either... the time frames and changes would be plausible and only identifiable by a few...

Robert appears to have been in on the charade... John, not so much.

We cannot think of those times with 2014 technologies, although it is very hard not to. Photos could be doctored, documents created... there was no other means of comparing or identifying these two as they would not have been together by plan...

By the time technology catches up, the intended purposes and results would be long over... with things like the Garrison investigation and the early books dealt with as they always been... minimize, slander, and "marketing"....

If John's book ever caught on in mainstream, I shudder to think of the ringer he would be put thru...

The "best selling" of these books focuses on Bethesda and the conspiracy perpetrated there... with little mention of the CIA, ONI, DIA or anyone else for that matter.
And no mention at all of the Harvey and Lee conflicts in the evidence...

Focus the attention in one area to keep it away from another... the basic elements of illusion...

DJ

[Albert Doyle]

It would be interesting if the Harvey and Lee project was a covert project using genetics to form two identical twins in different mothers who were chosen because of their resemblance with the intention of penetrating the iron curtain for espionage. This person who was already under total control was then switched to patsy for the Kennedy assassination.

I didn't read Harvey & Lee because it was too expensive.

[LR Trotter]

It would be interesting if the Harvey and Lee project was a covert project using genetics to form two idenitical twins in different mothers who were chosen because of their resemblance with the intention of penetrating the iron curtain for espionage. This person who was already under total control was then switched to patsy for the Kennedy assassination.

I didn't read Harvey & Lee because it was too expensive.

Mr Doyle used the term "Harvey and Lee project", and it is a very likely occurence. That itself adds value to Mr Armstrong's research, and the possibility of an agent being switched to a patsy is well within a possibility. As post #44 by Mr Josephs mentioned, forged documents and doctored photographs are in need of consideration. In my opinion, especially regarding early '60s photography, viewing a b&w picture of someone is not seeing the person, but a combination of shadow and light that creates an image, and interpretation is a very important factor. I don't mean to sound like a photography expert, because trust me, Robert Groden need not be concerned. However, at my age, I have viewed many b&w photographs.
:hock::

[Jim Hargrove]

It would be interesting if the Harvey and Lee project was a covert project using genetics to form two identical twins in different mothers who were chosen because of their resemblance with the intention of penetrating the iron curtain for espionage. This person who was already under total control was then switched to patsy for the Kennedy assassination.

I didn't read Harvey & Lee because it was too expensive.

There is a very well done pirated pdf copy of the book floating around the web, but I can't seem to locate it. I have a copy, but the file is too large to send via email. If you send me a private note requesting it, I'll tell you how to get it via dropbox. John A is OK with this.

Jim

[Jim Hargrove]

Allen Dulles was CIA director from 1953 to 1961, when he was fired by JFK. John Armstrong sent me the following excerpts from the writings of Dulles with a couple of comments from John:

================= QUOTE ON ===============

A Problem of Identity

I would give The Great Impersonation, by E. Phillps Oppenhiem, the prize for cleverness among all novels about espionage, and that includes all of them written since he wrote this one in 1920. As the title explains, we are asked to accept as the basis for the whole plot the physical substitution of one person for another, an arrangement which in Oppenheim's hands keeps us up in the air through a hundred risky episodes until the final revelation in the last chapter all but floors us. You must only believe that the dissolute English nobleman Sir Everard Dominey, who is going to rack and ruin in darkest Africa, is the spit and image of the German Major General Baron Leopold von Ragastein, governor of a German colony in Africa, who was educated in England and speaks English so well that he can pass for a native.

The period is that just preceding the outbreak of World War I. Knowing that in case of war the German espionage network in England will eventually come to grief, the German Intelligence Service, under the direct command of the Kaiser himself, conceives the plan of secretly doing away with Dominey in Africa and sending Ragastein to England to impersonate him. If Ragastein succeeds in becoming accepted as Dominey, the Germans will have an agent in the highest circles in Britain who can safely ride out the war.

There are numerous complications and difficulties. Dominey has a wife, Rosamund, suffering from mental illness. She must accept Ragastein as her husband, Dominey. Ragastein has a mistress, the Hungarian Princess Stephanie Eiderstrom. She happens to be in England and must be brought in on the secret that Ragastein has taken on Dominey's identity. The other people who know the secret are the German ambassador Prince Terniloff and Mr. Seaman, a member of the German Secret Service who is assigned as an aide to Ragastein for this operation. To avoid too much confusion, Ragastein is referred to as Dominey throughout the major part of the novel, since this is the person he has become. . .

Dulles then continues his intro with a specific description of the scene from which this excerpt is taken, so I've omitted the rest.The following excerpt is from his introduction to the next story, An Assignment in Brittany, by Helen MacInnes. Again, the relevant section is the first paragraph, so I've skipped the rest.

A Confusion of Celts

The beauty of Helen MacInnes's use of the ancient and obviously attractive game of impersonation, her particular innovation, is that while the physical resemblance causes no problems, the inner differences between the spy and the man whose person he assumes do. One instance of this, which works out in the spy's favor, is contained in the present excerpt . . .

I think Dulles was all but telling his readers that impersonation is real and plausible. He liked it! The point is not whether it could really work - after all, the Russians apparently didn't buy Harvey as a genuine defector - but whether Dulles was the kind of guy who would try it. He was! All the naysayers out there arguing that the Harvey/Lee scenario couldn't really work are totally missing the point, namely Allen Dulles thought it could work! Of course people could tell the difference between Harvey and Lee - but that didn't stop Allen Dulles from trying it!

============== QUOTE OFF ================

JIm

[Albert Doyle]

I think Dulles was all but telling his readers that impersonation is real and plausible. He liked it! The point is not whether it could really work - after all, the Russians apparently didn't buy Harvey as a genuine defector - but whether Dulles was the kind of guy who would try it. He was! All the naysayers out there arguing that the Harvey/Lee scenario couldn't really work are totally missing the point, namely Allen Dulles thought it could work! Of course people could tell the difference between Harvey and Lee - but that didn't stop Allen Dulles from trying it!

============== QUOTE OFF ================

JIm

We don't know what role Oswald served in Russia. He might have brought very real information on microfilm that helped shoot down the U-2. Who knows what the Russians knew? After the fall of the iron curtain they knew JFK was killed by conspiracy but kept their mouths shut. So maybe they did the same with Oswald.

Also, the Dallas scheme didn't really work because researchers have mostly figured it out over the years. So whether it worked or not doesn't really apply with these powers because they can change the earth to force their agenda through.

[David Josephs]

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