On Edwin Kaiser and Related Topics

[Jim DiEugenio]

Varnell does not even know the history of Zapata.

Kennedy took a vote of his central advisors on the project, every single one of them endorsed the project. This is detailed in McNamara's book, In Retrospect.

Repeat; every one of them.

It was only afterwards that some, to save their own credibility, began to say to the press that they actually thought different.

This is why Kennedy then installed a taping system in the White House. So now his advisors could not turn on him after the fact.

I really don't know what the heck Varnell is talking about when he says I take Dulles at his word on this or anything else. That is just complete and utter nonsense on his part. I just proved, through that imaginary conversation, that Dulles lied his head off to JFK about this. And I left out the fact that Dulles told JFK that he felt this operation was actually better planned and had more probability of success than the Arbenz operation.

And yes Cliff, we all knew the CIA knew that Castro understood that the attack was coming. I have said repeatedly he was on high alert because of that. That is why the police force was awake in Playa Giron. So here is another one of your "destroyers" that turns into a sinking tugboat.

Cliff, if you think Dulles did not know what he was doing from 1961-64, then you had better hit the books or read Talbot. To use just two examples, Dulles was arranging the assassination of Lumumba, before JFK was inaugurated,

BECAUSE HE KNEW KENNEDY WOULD FAVOR LUMUMBA AFTER HE BECAME PRESIDENT!


You did know that right Cliff? You did read Kwitny's Endless Enemies? The Devil's Chessboard? The Congo Cables?

Oh no, you only read Kinzer's short piece. God you are careful aren't you?

Alright, then what about Dulles arranging the backing of the CIA for the revolt of the French OAS to overthrow DeGaulle? Was Dulles senile while he was arranging to have DeGaulle toppled? Did you check Kinzer on this one? Because Talbot has it solidly backed with primary sources in his book.

Oh, you only read Kinzer's short piece. You are careful aren't you?

Anyone who can read the Warren Commission volumes, and see how Dulles is in on Perry reversing his testimony of a frontal shot, on Humes lying his head off about the position of Kennedy's head at Z 313, on weakening Baker's testimony about Oswald being in the same room with him as he wrote his affidavit that does not mention Oswald at all! Any author who reads that stuff and says Dulles was losing it--at the very same time that Dulles is actively arranging for Oswald to be framed, must work for the NY Times.

I mean you did know that, right Cliff?

[Jim DiEugenio]

Scott:

This will be the last time I say this.

Kennedy approved the pre D Day strikes.

The D Day strike was to be launched from the island. See, that is why they had aviation fuel when the attack landed. But since there was no beachhead, there was no D Day strike.

As the attack collapsed, Kennedy OK'd a rolling air cover in order to rescue as many survivors as they could.

What Cabell, Nixon and Burke wanted was to unleash an American amphibious attack on Cuba.

I don't know how to make it any more simple than that.

[Scott Kaiser]

Scott:

This will be the last time I say this.

Kennedy approved the pre D Day strikes.

The D Day strike was to be launched from the island. See, that is why they had aviation fuel when the attack landed. But since there was no beachhead, there was no D Day strike.

As the attack collapsed, Kennedy OK'd a rolling air cover in order to rescue as many survivors as they could.

What Cabell, Nixon and Burke wanted was to unleash an American amphibious attack on Cuba.

I don't know how to make it any more simple than that.

A rolling air-cover? LOL! Where do you get this stuff? Those A4's were doing fly byes over Cuba [before] the BOP's ever got started, but, you knew that already didn't you Jim?

[Scott Kaiser]

Jim says, "Kennedy approved the pre D Day strikes." I don't think Kennedy approved the "airstrikes" why? Because the Brigade already had 19 planes there was no doubt there would be an airstrike, that was approved under Eisenhower's administration, what Jim refuses to acknowledge is the fact Kennedy approved American military "air cover." When Kennedy said, NO American military personnel would be used, but that was a lie too wasn't Jim? Was it just a coincidence the A4s happened to show up an hour late when it was all over? Kennedy knew exactly what he was doing when he called them off right Jim?

[Scott Kaiser]

But, you're right Jim about onething, those A4s did search for survivors, isn't that what Kennedy told the Russian's?

[Scott Kaiser]

Edited #98.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Again Scott, you apparently have not read Kornbluh's book. One of the fine attributes of Bay of Pigs Declassified, is not only does it contain the Kirkpatrick Report, Kornbluh puts together a chronology of the whole operation; from beginning to end.

On page 318, Kornbluh describes an impromptu meeting on 4/19 at the White House, just after midnight during a formal affair. At this meeting Burke asked JFK for permission to send in American jet fighter planes with American pilots to aid the invasion. Kennedy said that he would not allow that in light of his pledge made a week or so previous on national TV.

But he did authorize planes from the Essex to fly air cover--in military terms its called a CAP--in order for the flotilla to come in and rescue the survivors on the beach before they were killed or captured. Kennedy's direct orders were that the cover planes were not to hit any Cuban air force planes, nor were they to attack targets on the ground. (ibid)

What had happened was that because of the ferocity of Castro's counter attack--the combination of an artillery barrage with the T-33's--the flotilla was way out in the sea, divorced from the shore. They could not come in close enough to rescue the wounded before they became prisoners or ferry out the survivors before they were all captured. One can see how JFK would be sensitive to this because of PT 109.

Now Scott, before you come in with something like this was really a secret mission to knock out Castro's Air Force, or such, let me repeat this for about the fourth time. As Kirkpatrick was at pains to make clear, it would not have made any difference if Castro's Air Force was neutralized. Because of the other factors that had failed, the attack was not going to succeed. Castro had too many men with too much artillery and tanks moving onto the beaches too fast.

For the life of me, I don't know why you insist on this "Kennedy blew it by not providing air support" myth. As I and others have shown, this was a CYA story that was used by Dulles, Hunt and Bissell. It was then spread throughout the exile community--which you find so bracing--and they swallowed it. The purpose was to disguise the fact that the CIA had gambled and lost. They thought Kennedy would cave, in order to avoid defeat. He did not. And I have tried to explain to you why, as this was part of his foreign policy ethos. You don't seem to care.

OK, that is your choice.

[Scott Kaiser]

I've come to realize that whatever it is one has written about, that author will defend his or hers material tooth and nail, even if they're wrong. Jim, you seem like someone who wants to tell the truth, but at times has a hard time at distinction. You first say, "On page 318, Kornbluh describes an impromptu meeting on 4/19 at the White House, just after midnight during a formal affair. At this meeting Burke asked JFK for permission to send in American jet fighter planes with American pilots to aid the invasion. Kennedy said that he would not allow that in light of his pledge made a week or so previous on national TV." Yet, it's okay to approve air-cover, even if it means getting shot-down so long as they do not engage, right?

This is exactly what I've been saying all along, then you say, "But he did authorize planes from the Essex to fly air cover--in military terms its called a CAP--in order for the flotilla to come in and rescue the survivors on the beach before they were killed or captured. Kennedy's direct orders were that the cover planes were not to hit any Cuban air force planes, nor were they to attack targets on the ground. (ibid)"

This my friend is the worst possible excuse one could conjure up, why? For starters, what were the A4's suppose to do, penetrate Cuban airspace, provoke a war, take on indiscriminate gun fire from Castro's air-force and not fire back? Gee Jim! Luckily, they showed up an hour late eh? You mean to tell me that the A4's which were doing fly byes over Cuba [prior] to the landing were suppose to be doing search and rescue missions [before] the landing ever took place? Well shit batman, that oughta tell you the invasion was doomed from the start eh?

[Scott Kaiser]

Again Scott, you apparently have not read Kornbluh's book. One of the fine attributes of Bay of Pigs Declassified, is not only does it contain the Kirkpatrick Report, Kornbluh puts together a chronology of the whole operation; from beginning to end.

On page 318, Kornbluh describes an impromptu meeting on 4/19 at the White House, just after midnight during a formal affair. At this meeting Burke asked JFK for permission to send in American jet fighter planes with American pilots to aid the invasion. Kennedy said that he would not allow that in light of his pledge made a week or so previous on national TV.

But he did authorize planes from the Essex to fly air cover--in military terms its called a CAP--in order for the flotilla to come in and rescue the survivors on the beach before they were killed or captured. Kennedy's direct orders were that the cover planes were not to hit any Cuban air force planes, nor were they to attack targets on the ground. (ibid)

What had happened was that because of the ferocity of Castro's counter attack--the combination of an artillery barrage with the T-33's--the flotilla was way out in the sea, divorced from the shore. They could not come in close enough to rescue the wounded before they became prisoners or ferry out the survivors before they were all captured. One can see how JFK would be sensitive to this because of PT 109.

Now Scott, before you come in with something like this was really a secret mission to knock out Castro's Air Force, or such, let me repeat this for about the fourth time. As Kirkpatrick was at pains to make clear, it would not have made any difference if Castro's Air Force was neutralized. Because of the other factors that had failed, the attack was not going to succeed. Castro had too many men with too much artillery and tanks moving onto the beaches too fast.

For the life of me, I don't know why you insist on this "Kennedy blew it by not providing air support" myth. As I and others have shown, this was a CYA story that was used by Dulles, Hunt and Bissell. It was then spread throughout the exile community--which you find so bracing--and they swallowed it. The purpose was to disguise the fact that the CIA had gambled and lost. They thought Kennedy would cave, in order to avoid defeat. He did not. And I have tried to explain to you why, as this was part of his foreign policy ethos. You don't seem to care.

OK, that is your choice.

According to Jim DiEugenio, Kornbluh and Kirkpatrick, Kaiser is wrong because "air-cover" means [in military terms its called a CAP--in order for the flotilla to come in and rescue the survivors on the beach before they were killed or captured.] Air-cover certainly doesn't mean, a military operation, in this case, U.S. military, the same military Kennedy said he would not allow be used because his pledge made a week or so previous on national TV. Liar, liar pants on fire!

Air-cover is, "a military operation in which airplanes fly regularly over an area in order to stop the enemy from attacking" of course, to Jim, that means to take on gun fire and get our ass kicked right Jim?

[Cliff Varnell]

Re the dementia article, Kinzer quotes 'an analyst' and 'an aide', but can't be bothered mentioning their names, or from which documents or books he sourced the info, which is always a great sign. At this rate he could have added further testimony from 'a friend of a friend' if he was really determined to sell the thesis.

It was the night of Monday, April 17, 1961, D-Day...

The Devil's Chessboard, David Talbot, pg 394:

,,,Dick Bissell, whom Dulles had put in charge of the operation, sent one of his top men in the Cuba task force to pick
him up at the airport, thinking that the CIA director would want to be briefed immediately on the growing calamity.
Richard Drain, chief of operations for the Bay of Pigs expedition, rolled onto the runway at Baltimore's Friendship
Airport in his well-traveled, CIA-issued Chevrolet as Dulles' small plane taxied to a stop. The CIA chief emerged from
the plane with his wife and a young aide, wearing a dinner jacket and the relaxed smile of a man of leisure. Drain stepped
forward and offered his hand.

"I'm Dick Drain. I was sent to brief you, sir."

"Oh yes, Dick, how are you?"

Drain drew Dulles away from the others.

"Well, how is it going?" asked Dulles.

"Not very well, sir."

"Oh, is that so?" Dulles wore an oddly bemused look, as if the unfolding tragedy was too remote to effect him.

Back at Quarters Eye, the CIA headquarters in downtown Washington, battled-hardened men were on the verge of hysteria.
Bissell, who prided himself on his cool performance under pressure, seemed frozen. On the brink of failure, the Cuba
operation lacked the kind of muscular leadership that could rescue the men pinned down by Castro's forces. Drain was
hoping that Dulles would save the day. But he found the Old Man's unflappability disturbing.