On Edwin Kaiser and Related Topics

[Scott Kaiser]

Scott:

This will be the last time I say this.

Kennedy approved the pre D Day strikes.

The D Day strike was to be launched from the island. See, that is why they had aviation fuel when the attack landed. But since there was no beachhead, there was no D Day strike.

As the attack collapsed, Kennedy OK'd a rolling air cover in order to rescue as many survivors as they could.

What Cabell, Nixon and Burke wanted was to unleash an American amphibious attack on Cuba.

I don't know how to make it any more simple than that.

A rolling air-cover? LOL! Where do you get this stuff? Those A4's were doing fly byes over Cuba [before] the BOP's ever got started, but, you knew that already didn't you Jim?

[Scott Kaiser]

Jim says, "Kennedy approved the pre D Day strikes." I don't think Kennedy approved the "airstrikes" why? Because the Brigade already had 19 planes there was no doubt there would be an airstrike, that was approved under Eisenhower's administration, what Jim refuses to acknowledge is the fact Kennedy approved American military "air cover." When Kennedy said, NO American military personnel would be used, but that was a lie too wasn't Jim? Was it just a coincidence the A4s happened to show up an hour late when it was all over? Kennedy knew exactly what he was doing when he called them off right Jim?

[Scott Kaiser]

But, you're right Jim about onething, those A4s did search for survivors, isn't that what Kennedy told the Russian's?

[Scott Kaiser]

Edited #98.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Again Scott, you apparently have not read Kornbluh's book. One of the fine attributes of Bay of Pigs Declassified, is not only does it contain the Kirkpatrick Report, Kornbluh puts together a chronology of the whole operation; from beginning to end.

On page 318, Kornbluh describes an impromptu meeting on 4/19 at the White House, just after midnight during a formal affair. At this meeting Burke asked JFK for permission to send in American jet fighter planes with American pilots to aid the invasion. Kennedy said that he would not allow that in light of his pledge made a week or so previous on national TV.

But he did authorize planes from the Essex to fly air cover--in military terms its called a CAP--in order for the flotilla to come in and rescue the survivors on the beach before they were killed or captured. Kennedy's direct orders were that the cover planes were not to hit any Cuban air force planes, nor were they to attack targets on the ground. (ibid)

What had happened was that because of the ferocity of Castro's counter attack--the combination of an artillery barrage with the T-33's--the flotilla was way out in the sea, divorced from the shore. They could not come in close enough to rescue the wounded before they became prisoners or ferry out the survivors before they were all captured. One can see how JFK would be sensitive to this because of PT 109.

Now Scott, before you come in with something like this was really a secret mission to knock out Castro's Air Force, or such, let me repeat this for about the fourth time. As Kirkpatrick was at pains to make clear, it would not have made any difference if Castro's Air Force was neutralized. Because of the other factors that had failed, the attack was not going to succeed. Castro had too many men with too much artillery and tanks moving onto the beaches too fast.

For the life of me, I don't know why you insist on this "Kennedy blew it by not providing air support" myth. As I and others have shown, this was a CYA story that was used by Dulles, Hunt and Bissell. It was then spread throughout the exile community--which you find so bracing--and they swallowed it. The purpose was to disguise the fact that the CIA had gambled and lost. They thought Kennedy would cave, in order to avoid defeat. He did not. And I have tried to explain to you why, as this was part of his foreign policy ethos. You don't seem to care.

OK, that is your choice.

[Scott Kaiser]

I've come to realize that whatever it is one has written about, that author will defend his or hers material tooth and nail, even if they're wrong. Jim, you seem like someone who wants to tell the truth, but at times has a hard time at distinction. You first say, "On page 318, Kornbluh describes an impromptu meeting on 4/19 at the White House, just after midnight during a formal affair. At this meeting Burke asked JFK for permission to send in American jet fighter planes with American pilots to aid the invasion. Kennedy said that he would not allow that in light of his pledge made a week or so previous on national TV." Yet, it's okay to approve air-cover, even if it means getting shot-down so long as they do not engage, right?

This is exactly what I've been saying all along, then you say, "But he did authorize planes from the Essex to fly air cover--in military terms its called a CAP--in order for the flotilla to come in and rescue the survivors on the beach before they were killed or captured. Kennedy's direct orders were that the cover planes were not to hit any Cuban air force planes, nor were they to attack targets on the ground. (ibid)"

This my friend is the worst possible excuse one could conjure up, why? For starters, what were the A4's suppose to do, penetrate Cuban airspace, provoke a war, take on indiscriminate gun fire from Castro's air-force and not fire back? Gee Jim! Luckily, they showed up an hour late eh? You mean to tell me that the A4's which were doing fly byes over Cuba [prior] to the landing were suppose to be doing search and rescue missions [before] the landing ever took place? Well shit batman, that oughta tell you the invasion was doomed from the start eh?

[Scott Kaiser]

Again Scott, you apparently have not read Kornbluh's book. One of the fine attributes of Bay of Pigs Declassified, is not only does it contain the Kirkpatrick Report, Kornbluh puts together a chronology of the whole operation; from beginning to end.

On page 318, Kornbluh describes an impromptu meeting on 4/19 at the White House, just after midnight during a formal affair. At this meeting Burke asked JFK for permission to send in American jet fighter planes with American pilots to aid the invasion. Kennedy said that he would not allow that in light of his pledge made a week or so previous on national TV.

But he did authorize planes from the Essex to fly air cover--in military terms its called a CAP--in order for the flotilla to come in and rescue the survivors on the beach before they were killed or captured. Kennedy's direct orders were that the cover planes were not to hit any Cuban air force planes, nor were they to attack targets on the ground. (ibid)

What had happened was that because of the ferocity of Castro's counter attack--the combination of an artillery barrage with the T-33's--the flotilla was way out in the sea, divorced from the shore. They could not come in close enough to rescue the wounded before they became prisoners or ferry out the survivors before they were all captured. One can see how JFK would be sensitive to this because of PT 109.

Now Scott, before you come in with something like this was really a secret mission to knock out Castro's Air Force, or such, let me repeat this for about the fourth time. As Kirkpatrick was at pains to make clear, it would not have made any difference if Castro's Air Force was neutralized. Because of the other factors that had failed, the attack was not going to succeed. Castro had too many men with too much artillery and tanks moving onto the beaches too fast.

For the life of me, I don't know why you insist on this "Kennedy blew it by not providing air support" myth. As I and others have shown, this was a CYA story that was used by Dulles, Hunt and Bissell. It was then spread throughout the exile community--which you find so bracing--and they swallowed it. The purpose was to disguise the fact that the CIA had gambled and lost. They thought Kennedy would cave, in order to avoid defeat. He did not. And I have tried to explain to you why, as this was part of his foreign policy ethos. You don't seem to care.

OK, that is your choice.

According to Jim DiEugenio, Kornbluh and Kirkpatrick, Kaiser is wrong because "air-cover" means [in military terms its called a CAP--in order for the flotilla to come in and rescue the survivors on the beach before they were killed or captured.] Air-cover certainly doesn't mean, a military operation, in this case, U.S. military, the same military Kennedy said he would not allow be used because his pledge made a week or so previous on national TV. Liar, liar pants on fire!

Air-cover is, "a military operation in which airplanes fly regularly over an area in order to stop the enemy from attacking" of course, to Jim, that means to take on gun fire and get our ass kicked right Jim?

[Cliff Varnell]

Re the dementia article, Kinzer quotes 'an analyst' and 'an aide', but can't be bothered mentioning their names, or from which documents or books he sourced the info, which is always a great sign. At this rate he could have added further testimony from 'a friend of a friend' if he was really determined to sell the thesis.

It was the night of Monday, April 17, 1961, D-Day...

The Devil's Chessboard, David Talbot, pg 394:

,,,Dick Bissell, whom Dulles had put in charge of the operation, sent one of his top men in the Cuba task force to pick
him up at the airport, thinking that the CIA director would want to be briefed immediately on the growing calamity.
Richard Drain, chief of operations for the Bay of Pigs expedition, rolled onto the runway at Baltimore's Friendship
Airport in his well-traveled, CIA-issued Chevrolet as Dulles' small plane taxied to a stop. The CIA chief emerged from
the plane with his wife and a young aide, wearing a dinner jacket and the relaxed smile of a man of leisure. Drain stepped
forward and offered his hand.

"I'm Dick Drain. I was sent to brief you, sir."

"Oh yes, Dick, how are you?"

Drain drew Dulles away from the others.

"Well, how is it going?" asked Dulles.

"Not very well, sir."

"Oh, is that so?" Dulles wore an oddly bemused look, as if the unfolding tragedy was too remote to effect him.

Back at Quarters Eye, the CIA headquarters in downtown Washington, battled-hardened men were on the verge of hysteria.
Bissell, who prided himself on his cool performance under pressure, seemed frozen. On the brink of failure, the Cuba
operation lacked the kind of muscular leadership that could rescue the men pinned down by Castro's forces. Drain was
hoping that Dulles would save the day. But he found the Old Man's unflappability disturbing.

[Scott Kaiser]

Bait, hook and cast. I just reeled in a 210 lbs DiEugenio, lol....

[Cliff Varnell]

In which David Talbot peddles a fiction wholly endorsed by Jim DiEugenio.

Devil's Chessboard, David Talbot, pg 560:

Emphasis added to the bullshit in the text.

Over the final months of JFK's presidency, a clear consensus took shape within America's deep state: Kennedy was a
national security threat. For the good of the country, he must be removed. And Dulles was the only man with the
stature, connections, and decisive will to make something of this enormity happen. He had already assembled a killing
machine to operate overseas. Now he prepared to bring it home to Dallas.

Joseph Trento, The Secret History of the CIA, pgs 334-5

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: "On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge's own military assistant."

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate "with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy." By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running "Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general."

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, "Kenny O'Donnell (JFK's appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman."

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Sagon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, "John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters," although Dunn's role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge for "special operations," could act without hindrance.

On December 15, 1959, Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev landed in Washington DC on the first stop of a two week tour
of the States.

The next day he showed up at W. Averell Harriman's pad in Manhattan.

From Spanning the Century The Life of W. Averell Harriman, by Rudy Abramson, pg. 575

In his second-floor drawing room, Harriman gathered leaders from mining, manfacturing, oil, chemicals, banking,
and insurance industries, including John D. Rockefeller III; General David Sarnoff, chairman of RCA; Frank Pace,
chairman of General Dynamics Corporation; W. Alton Jones, chairman of Cities Service Corporation; and John J. McCloy,
chairman of Chase Manhattan Bank. By his estimate, scribbled on a yellow legal pad before Khrushchev arrived, they
represented assets of some $38 billion. Among them, as witnesses to history, were a few men of ordinary means,
former ambassadors, educators, and, notably, Rockefeller Foundation president Dean Rusk, and Harvard economist
John Kenneth Galbraith, the latter having invited himself as a "representative of the proletariat."

Surround by Picassos and Derains, their voices muffled by Persian carpets, the capitalist Titans greeted the Communist
chieftain one by one, then sat in a semi-circle savoring caviar and sipping champagne and New York wine as Averell
conducted his exposition of capitalism, war profits, and American politics. No one present, nor any of their friends,
he and the others assured the guest of honor, favored world tensions. The assembled war profiteers, said the host, were
men who'd champion disarmament the moment it became safe for the United States. There was not a hint, however, that
mingling with the millionaires did anything except reinforce Khrushchev's belief that he was then in the presence of the
men who controlled America far more than Eisenhower and the members of Congrss he had met in Washington.

One testimonial to free eterprise followed another. And when the Soviet leader reasserted his stubborn belief that the
men present composed the country's ruling circle, Galbraith later tattled, "Somebody demurred, but in perfunctory fashion.
After it was over, Harriman insisted that the Soviet leader had gained insights of "real importance."