The truth and bare facts about the Bay of Pigs

[Scott Kaiser]

^^Edited...

[Scott Kaiser]

The following is from Destiny Betrayed, second edition, p. 47. I will denote what I wrote by not using quotation marks. I will denote what Dulles wrote by using quotation marks.

In 1965, Dulles was preparing a magazine memoir about the Bay of Pigs. he got so far as writing some notes about it. He then decided against it. But many years later, his coffee-stained notes were discovered in his papers at Princeton. In them Dulles finally admitted that he had a secret agenda for leaving Kennedy misinformed. He wrote that he never raised any objections when Kennedy insisted that there be no American troop commitment to the operation, or that the invasion be deniable, or quiet, or it should rely on internal uprisings. He then explained why.

"We did not want to raise these issues...which might only harden the decision against the type of action we required. We felt that when the chips were down...when the crisis arose in reality--any action required for success would be authorized rather than permit the enterprise to fail....We believed that in a time of crisis we would gain what we might have lost if we provoked an argument in advance."

In other words, by misleading Kennedy into committing to a project he really did not want to commit to, Dulles would place him in a position where he would either have to swallow a humiliating defeat or reverse his public pledge of April 12: "There will not be under any conditions, an intervention in Cuba by the United States armed forces." In Dulles' eyes, all the deceptions about "going guerilla", about the D Day air strikes, about the Cuban masses rallying to the exile beachhead, these were all justified in his Machiavellian world view. He then tried to rationalize his justification:

"I have seen a good many operations which started out like this B of P insistence of complete secrecy--non-involvement of the U.S.--initial reluctance to authorize supporting action. This limitation tends to disappear as the needs of the operation become clarified."

This essay, by Lucien S. Vandenbroucke, was not published until 1984. At the time, the publication, Diplomatic History, gave Bissell an opportunity to reply. Bissell admitted that he and Dulles, "Had allowed Kennedy to persist in misunderstandings about the nature of the Cuban operation."

Quotes off.

Its not often these guys confess to treachery in print. But this time they did. They couldn't avoid it. Someone stuffed the unfinished manuscript into the files.

You should read some of these things from the actual pens of Dulles and Bissell. This is what the CIA is all about: lies, lies and more lies. Which would have been fine under Ike, Nixon or LBJ. But as Kennedy told Red Fay, Dulles had misjudged him. Which is why Dulles told the author he was working with on this essay, "That little Kennedy, he though he was a god." (ibid, p. 34)

No Allen. He just thought he was president. It was you who thought you were a god.

In 1965, Dulles was preparing a magazine memoir about the Bay of Pigs.

I believe that, that would have been the most interesting read if it only had been published, we than wouldn't be fighting for the rest of the Bay of Pigs volumes for their release.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Your reply at number ten about me quoting my book is nothing but an evasion on your part.

I was quoting Dulles and Bissell. As they were both quoted directly in Diplomatic History.

The title of that article, which apparently you did not know about, was "The Confessions of Allen Dulles." And no objective person could say it was anything else.

Again, here is Dulles: "We felt that when the chips were down...when the crisis arose in reality--any action required for success would be authorized rather than permit the enterprise to fail....We believed that in a time of crisis we would gain what we might have lost if we provoked an argument in advance."

What do you think he is talking about when he says "any action required for success would be authorized rather than permit the enterprise to fail"? That is English isn't it? He is talking about the Bay of Pigs failing--as he knew it would. Then again, in English, "I have seen a good many operations which started out like this B of P insistence of complete secrecy--non-involvement of the U.S.--initial reluctance to authorize supporting action. This limitation tends to disappear as the needs of the operation become clarified."

What else could be mean about "limitation tends to disappear as the needs of the operation become clarified" except JFK authorizing direct intervention?

If you have an alternative to what everyone else thinks it says, then please offer it. But its pretty clear you were not even aware of this bombshell article. Which is what I would expect from a newbie.

You did not answer my question about DeTorres. Why?

[Tracy Riddle]

If Nixon had won the election, was he already intending to send in the US military to aid the invasion? Aiding the Cuban invaders stuck on the beach could be the excuse for US intervention (plus the usual excuses of "national security," "American interests," etc). And wasn't there another half-assed attempt to kill Castro before the invasion, in the hope that it would spread confusion and hurt Cuban morale?

[Drew Phipps]

It sounds like Dulles is saying he didn't care whether the Cubans succeeded or not. Not that the plan was designed to fail, but that the plan allowed for the Cubans to die on that beach, if it justified the next move. So it was a win-win for Dulles and a lose-lose for JFK (who had promised not to intervene directly)

What is the expression: "Forgiveness is easier to obtain than permission"?

[Scott Kaiser]

Jim,

Here are a few things you said that I would like to address, first you said, "The CIA knew this. Which is why they picked Playa Giron after Kennedy vetoed their first plan. The Cubans never got close to a beachhead since Castro knew they were coming and he had mortars, artillery, and tanks at the front within hours."

Permit me to make these corrections, the CIA did not pick Playa Giron after Kennedy vetoed their first plan, Kennedy picked it.

Than you say, "The Cubans never got close to a beachhead since Castro knew they were coming and he had mortars, artillery, and tanks at the front within hours."

What about the 1,100 men taken into custody? Were they just caught swimming in the ocean? As far as I know the only platoon of men that didn't advance was Nino Diaz's men, who all to this day thank him for not giving the order to advance because Nino saved lives that day. BTW... He also worked with my father, and I have met and talked with him too.

Castro should have called the NYT's thanking them for the leaked information which allowed Castro the time needed to move his force into place.

Than you asked, "do you talk to DeTorres?", you know from the many postings I've made in the past that DeTorres is also found in my father's little black book, I believe that I have at one time posted the page at the EF forum. And, to answer your question I did not know he was still alive.

The last person I located and found from my father's address book has been Rudy Junco, if DeTorres is still alive, I guess I have another person to hunt down when I return to Miami.

I also found Carlos Quiroga, you do know of him right?

Getting back to the BOP's before I'm side tracked. During the Cuban Missile Crisis in a cable found, Kennedy did nearly order an air strike to dismantle the Russian mid range missiles in Cuba, but rather than an air strike Kennedy took a different approach hoping to resolve the conflict with Russia by these peace talks you're talking about.

The so called peace talks with Castro didn't last long, and so, Kennedy went to Khrushchev where the two super powers needed to come together to avoid the conflict, Cuba, as a third world country did not have the same means Russia did if an all out war broke.

Jim, you also say, "There were no assassination attempts." I'm assuming that you mean the Kennedy brother's didn't dirty their hands in wanting Castro dead, however, Lisa Pease wrote an articular about a plot to assassinate Castro in Moa Cuba, and both Kennedy's were well aware of it, can you please explain that one?

The year was 1960-61 I believe, and Mr. Pujol was apart of that plot to assassinate Castro under the orders of David Atlee Phillips.

What about Ted Shackley? And, only the second largest CIA base station in the United States outside Langley JM/WAVE.

I suppose neither Kennedy brother's knew about that either right?

You are right about Kennedy calling off the air strikes that McBundy is apparently blamed for, but it didn't matter if the strikes were called off or not the CIA had no more planes in Nicaragua to send, both Bissell and Dulles informed Kennedy the CIA had a total of (16) planes to use against Castro's forces. Kennedy asked for them to scale back their number of planes so it didn't look as though the United States was involved, Kennedy just didn't want a war that would have enticed Russia willingly to war.

But, it didn't matter who called off the second air strikes simply because the CIA had lost (19) of their planes, did you get what I said? The CIA told Kennedy they had 16 to start, Kennedy wanted them to scale back their invasion to only 8 planes, but the CIA had lost 19 planes altogether, they, the CIA had no more planes left. Did you know that? Perhaps, the information remains in the documents we still seek, and are still sealed, but it helps to talk to those who were there and in charge of their daily operations.

So, I suppose if Kennedy was never involved with any assassination plots against Castro, than Kennedy was never involved with the Bay of Pigs either? Eh?

Forgive me for my fast typing and typo errors made, I've made the corrections in bold and italicized lettering so those corrections can be easily found.

[Scott Kaiser]

Jim, please don't get me wrong, I do not entirely disagree with everything you say, I do agree with what you said about Hunt and Morales, perhaps, it's the reason my father was killed over the photos he had of them, and yes. I too agree with you that the blundered up Bay of Pigs only instigated the CIA to finally get rid of their nemesis Kennedy before he tore them up into a thousand pieces. Again, that's just.

My two cents.

[Kenneth Kapel]

My 2 cents, for whatever they are worth, is that after JFK became President the CIA's hign command did decide to fabe defeated at The Bay of Pigs, in order to show the President who is really in charge, and that he had better play ball with the establishments plans for the nation & the world. If he went alone he would have a successful, at least from the establishments point of view, if not watch out. JFK didn't play ball so Dallas was inevitable.

When Ronald Reagan was shot my initial reaction was that if Reagan survived the attempted assassination the powers that be were telling him he had better just watch this old movies at Camp David and let George run things. Just two of my crazy opinions.

[Scott Kaiser]

The bells about to rock FIRE we salute you! A few changes have been made in my previous post above, apologizes for the typo's made.

Changes have been made in bold and initialized lettering.

[Jim DiEugenio]

1.) After Kennedy vetoed the first plan because it was too much like a WW 2 operation, the CIA came back with five different landing points.

They strongly recommended Playa Giron. First, it was the only one with an area suitable with an air strip. Further, they lied to JFK and told him it had been the scene of much resistance fighting for a long time. (Kornbluh, Bay of Pigs Declassified, p. 126)

How you can say that this was JFK's choice under those circumstances eludes me.

2.) I guess you and I have a difference of opinion about what constitutes a beachhead. In military terms this means your side has captured a point on the beach that they have secured to the point that they can 1.) Fend off attacks and 2.) Safely land troops and munitions. To the point that they can now launch a counterattack and break out operation.

Now, if you have read the Kirkpatrick Report, at no point in the operation was this status ever remotely achieved. The exiles were on the defensive almost from the beginning. Because within hours of landing Castro had more men, more weapons, and better air power at the front. This was worsened by the fact that two resupply ships had sunk in the bay. (ibid, p. 310) In fact, because of the constant tank shelling at the beach, the resupply ships that were left retreated to fifty miles into the bay. (ibid, pgs. 312-15) Within 24 hours, the writing was on the wall. (ibid, p. 313)

3.) It was not the NY TImes that was the tip off point for Fidel. Castro had plants inside the training camps in Guatemala. And they alerted him as to when the last ship had departed. Then, the CIA told JFK that there would be no patrol at Playa Giron. But there was.(ibid, p. 126, 307) And they alerted him to the preliminary landings.

As per Tracy, I do not know if the American intervention was actually a part of the plan under Nixon.

But I find FLetcher Prouty's observations about this interesting. First, he said Nixon was the action officer in the WH on the operation. Which to me would connote that they thought he would be the next president and would therefore supervise the actual operation. Second, Prouty said that the guys running the thing were shocked that Kennedy won. SInce they knew since it was not his operation he would have to be dragged into it.