The truth and bare facts about the Bay of Pigs

[Scott Kaiser]

Could be that the Military - with Harriman and Bundy - made sure the CIA failed

Not exactly a plan designed by the CIA to fail when nothing is going right for you.

Scott... how about posting what you believe the BoP plans was DESIGNED to accomplish...

Mr. Josephs has eloquently answered it for me, he said,

The intelligence indicated that there were quite a number of people
that were ready to join in the fight against Castro

But, what seems to be over looked by the intelligence community and the lack of reporting thereof is how Castro had many of his own spies working inside Cuba dismantling those who already opposed him. Those men were either lined up against the firing wall, thrown in prison or exiled from Cuba.

Many members of the November 30th who were capable of heading up a revolt and knew Castro well where no longer in Cuba to help in a successful revolution or lead in the BOP. [size=12]Frank Pais, Otto Parellada, Tony Aloma, Jorge Sotus just to name a few. Castro would make sure he secured his rightful place in history and he did, nor would Castro ever give up his position.

The CIA (underestimated) Castro's abilities.

But, I tell you the truth, the Bay of Pigs operations was never, ever "designed by the CIA to fail", that is not true.
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[David Josephs]

Shoup: ...The intelligence indicated that there were quite a number of people
that were ready to join in the fight against Castro (p. 243)...My
understanding was that the possibilities of uprisings were increasing, that
people were just waiting for these arms and equipment, and as soon as they heard
where the invasion was that they would be coming after them (p. 245).

And who supplied this intelligence? The CIA? The DIA? Was this really an intelligence assessment or something just invented? Seriously. My guess? Talking points for marketing the invasion.

I believe these estimates all came from CIA via Dulles to the NSC for approval of the plan. It was Dulles' way of end running the edict that the NSC initiate covert operations. Rather than wait for them to ask, he would propose a plan and let them edit it. Dulles' job was to get the build-up and invasion onto Cuban soil.

I firmly believe the Military stood back and watched, hoping that this fiasco would lessen the CIA grip on things and open the door for more Military oversight of CIA, which they had lost over the years thanks to Dulles et al.
The battle between Military brass, Military Intelligence (all of them) and the CIA was in place well before the CIA was created....

It is the focus of my work these days and hopefully will produce a better view of the forces involved in the creation of the CIa and what the CIA was really meant to be in relation to the Military.

DJ

[David Josephs]

But, I tell you the truth, the Bay of Pigs operations was never, ever "designed by the CIA to fail", that is not true.

If the CIA knew that anti-Castro forces were NOT going to help out, the US Military was NOT going to help unless JFK ordered it at the last minute *which he was repeatedly told by JFK that would NOt happen) and that the existing forces were NOT trained to go guerilla....

yet the DCI of the CIA continues to sell the design of the plan along those lines...

1) Cubans will rise up... nope
2) JFK will step in... nope
3) Forces would go guerilla and hang on (for what exactly?)... 1500 against 30,000 with how many miles to guerilla their way across, completely untrained?


Scott - What part of the plan appears to you to be designed to succeed?

[Scott Kaiser]

The plan itself was questioned whether or not it should be followed though. The president, CIA and Eisenhower all questioned it's success.

The sheer determination of the anti-Castro Cubans, their pride and fight for a free Cuba is what allowed the CIA to allow the operation to play out, Dulles knew it would have no success unless military was used, it's no secret, And! The "original plan" was to have American military step in after 72 hours of battle, the problem is, it didn't last that long, and Kennedy refused using military to avoid undermining the Monroe Doctrine.

Nor, did Kennedy want to face his adversary in battle, (the Russians). The only success that plan had was NOT to change it origins of landing while allowing the battle to play out, had American military been used after the 72 hours of battle chances are Castro would have been assassinated at the hands of his own people.

This operation had to many blunders and mistakes, in my opinion no one including the president ever really given it any thought.

And so, the Brigade was on their own to fend for themselves. That sucks, but true.

[Scott Kaiser]

Several things went wrong; one, I don't believe that the CIA ever told the Brigade that American military would not be used until it was to late. The anti-Castro Cubans were expecting American backing, Dulles did try and push for it, but Kennedy refused.

If this plan was "designed to fail" than you have to blame Eisenhower and Nixon. Do you suppose President Kennedy did get cold feet? Was he afraid of what the Russians would have done? If Kennedy didn't want Castro living next door to him what kept Kennedy from using American military power?

[David Josephs]

I disagree with your assessment of the planning and the thought processes involved Scott.

Your paraphrasing of the "original plan" is woefully short of the reality and misses the key element...
AFTER THE BEACHHEAD WAS SECURE the US Military was going to come to the Cuban Freedom Fighter's Aid at their request (hint hint wink wink)

Dulles knew it would have no success unless military was used, it's no secret,

Scott, if this is no secret... and from the very first day JFK told Dulles there would be no military intervention that appears as if the US is invading
but rather coming to the aid of the Cuban fighters.

I've seen the reports of these early JFK meetings... He was on board with overthrowing Castro, but only via assisting Cubans.
JFK is at meetings discussing the assassination of Castro as a necessity... VERY early in his term.

I'm not sure what tact you are taking here, but believing that the BoP was ever planned to facilitate an American invasion of Cuba is simply not accurate.
NOTHING in the plan from day one was ever going to happen. NOTHING.

Dulles knew this but kept on selling it as a very real potential for success. He banked on JFK not holding the line and sending in the troops.
Eitehr way he wins... either he gets his invasion with Military support and a world of problems for JFK or
it went down as it was planned, a complete failure for JFK.

[Scott Kaiser]

It is the focus of my work these days and hopefully will produce a better view of the forces involved in the creation of the CIa and what the CIA was really meant to be in relation to the Military.

You have completely investigated and alluded the original plan. Wink, wink.

I'll read any further posts when I return from the store, have to go do some shopping now, it's been real, so lets keep it that way. Peace!

[Scott Kaiser]

I have said the same thing Bissell is saying here, but he nevertheless, addresses his concerns a bit differently. Bissell says, "Bissell wrote: "it is hard to believe in retrospect that the president and his advisers felt the plans for a large-scale, complicated military operation that had been ongoing for more than a year could be reworked in four days and still offer a high likelihood of success. It is equally amazing that we in the agency agreed so readily."

The objective plan for the Bay of Pigs called for a daytime landing at Trinidad, a city on the southern coast of Cuba near the Escambray Mountains, but Kennedy thought the plan exposed the role of the United States too openly, and suggested a nighttime landing at Bay of Pigs, which offered a suitable air-strip on the beach from which bombing raids could be operated. (Once the bay was secured, the provisional Cuban government-in-arms set up by the CIA would be landed and immediately recognized by the U.S. as the island's legitimate government. This new government would formally request military support and a new "intervention" would take place.)

As I said, it didn't last 72 hours, loose lips sinks ships, Castro did not allow anyone to oppose him prior and/or during the BOP's. He (Castro) earned the fear of his country men. No one would dare challenge Castro, if someone did, they'd paid for it with their life.

Once Kennedy became aware of the plan, opposition to the invasion was subtly discouraged. Various memos and notes kept from meetings prior to the invasion warned of potential problems and legal ramifications. At a meeting on January 28 the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff spoke strongly against invasion on the grounds that Castro's forces were already too strong. At the same meeting, the Secretary of Defense estimated that all the covert measures planned against Castro, including propaganda, sabotage, political action and the planned invasion, would not produce "the agreed national goal of overthrowing Castro."

On March 29 Senator Fulbright gave Kennedy a memo stating that "to give this activity even covert support is of a piece with the hypocrisy and cynicism for which the United States is constantly denouncing the Soviet Union in the United Nations and elsewhere. This point will not be lost on the rest of the world-nor on our own consciences."

A three-page memo from Under Secretary of State Chester A. Bowles to Secretary of State Dean Rusk on March 31 (Foreign Relations of the United States, Cuba, 1961-1963, Doc. No. 75, page 178) argued strongly against the invasion, citing moral and legal grounds. By supporting this operation, he wrote, "we would be deliberately violating the fundamental obligations we assumed in the Act of Bogota establishing the Organization of American States."

I have a question, if everyone was against the invasion, why did Kennedy allow it to happen?

[Scott Kaiser]

Five days before D-Day, at a press conference on April 12, Kennedy was asked how far the U.S. would go to help an uprising against Castro. "First," he answered, "I want to say that there will not be, under any conditions, an intervention in Cuba by the United States Armed Forces. This government will do everything it possibly can… I think it can meet its responsibilities, to make sure that there are no Americans involved in any actions inside Cuba… The basic issue in Cuba is not one between the United States and Cuba. It is between the Cubans themselves."

Again, the Brigade was on their own to fend for themselves.

Kennedy says, "I want to say that there will not be, under any conditions, an intervention in Cuba by the United States Armed Forces."

But! Wasn't there a few AMERICAN pilots shot down from Castro's forces? Things that make you go Hmmm?

[Scott Kaiser]

"One further factor no doubt influenced him," wrote Schlesinger, "the enormous confidence in his own luck. Everything had broken right for him since 1956. He had won the nomination and the election against all the odds in the book. Everyone around him thought he had the Midas touch and could not lose. Despite himself, even this dispassionate and skeptical man may have been affected by the soaring euphoria of the new day."