The truth and bare facts about the Bay of Pigs

[Albert Doyle]

BTW... Vietnam and Laos where pre Kennedy not post Kennedy!

Somebody here needs to read DiEugenio and Douglass badly!

[David Josephs]

Well, you really gave me nothing to my question, the wars you speak of were pre Kennedy not post Kennedy. Those struggles have been ongoing for years prior to Kennedy taking office, any "major wars" such as Vietnam or Korea happened (what I mean is the START of a NEW war) after all the kings men you pointed out in post [42] after taking Kennedy out?

Ok Scott... not going to play this game with you.

If you truly wish to believe that the US did not START anything anywhere after JFK... so be it.
If you wish to believe that the BOP plan, post Nov 1960 was not designed to push JFK into a corner with win-win for the powers that were/are... again, fine.

I really cannot understand the CONTEXT inwhich you place these events given everything I've studied about the period. JFK was not supposed to win, none of the plans laid since 1949 or so were supposed to stop.
The CIA had very limited success around the world in their fight against Communism/Russia while the Russians and Germans roamed virtually free thru the CIA, MI6, the French Intelligence Services and what becomes NASA.

The "plan" you are defending was based on lies which made success impossible... as I posted
The same type of lies were used to get the US into Vietnam only many times worse... the Vietnam situation was created by the CIA (Prouty's book on JFK and Vietnam is MUST reading here Scott... the "Hamlet" programs and the sheer audacity of the activities is staggering....

Can you please help us understand the sources from which you come to your conclusion.

Can you walk us thru a SUCCESSFUL BOP operation.... given the information we know about force strength, training, organization, the CIA's detachment from Washington and the strength of Castro...
If a popular uprising was a key component of the plan... and every indication was that no such uprising was ever going to happen... and was KEY to the success of the plan..

How is that not planning to fail?

[Scott Kaiser]

If you truly wish to believe that the US did not START anything anywhere after JFK... so be it.

I'm not saying that, I'm mean there was 911 ::

[David Josephs]

To set the situation into its context I'd suggest working thru the hundreds if not thousands of documents available on the different FRUS subjects...

Foreign Relations of the United States, 19581960, Cuba, Volume VI

U.S. Interest in the Cuban Revolution, the Overthrow of the Batista Government, and the Consolidation of Power by Fidel Castro, reevaluation by the U.S. Government of the policy of shipping arms to the Batista government, JanuaryJune 1958
http://history.state.gov/historicaldocum...-60v06/ch1

http://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/kennedy

Kennedy Administration

Volumes are grouped into Regular and Retrospective categories.

Regular volumes

Foreign Relations of the United States, 19611963

1. Vietnam, 1961, Volume I (Full Text, Ebook)
   
2. Vietnam, 1962, Volume II (Full Text, Ebook)
   
3. Vietnam, JanuaryAugust 1963, Volume III (Full Text, Ebook)
   
4. Vietnam, AugustDecember 1963, Volume IV (Full Text, Ebook)
   
   
   Regular volumes
   

Foreign Relations of the United States, 19521954

1. Indochina, Volume XIII, Part 1 (Full Text)
   
2. Indochina, Volume XIII, Part 2 (Full Text)
   

Foreign Relations of the United States, 19551957

1. Vietnam, Volume I (Full Text)
   
2. South Asia, Volume VIII (Full Text)
   
3. Foreign Economic Policy; Foreign Information Program, Volume IX (Full Text)
   
4. Foreign Aid and Economic Defense Policy, Volume X (Full Text)
   
5. United Nations and General International Matters, Volume XI (Full Text)
   
6. East Asian Security; Cambodia; Laos, Volume XXI (Full Text)
   
7. Southeast Asia, Volume XXII (Full Text)
   

Foreign Relations of the United States, 19581960

1. Vietnam, Volume I (Full Text, Ebook)
   
2. Cuba, Volume VI (Full Text, Ebook)
   
3. South and Southeast Asia, Volume XV (Full Text, Ebook)
   
4. Burma; Malaya-Singapore; East Asia Region; Cambodia, Volumes XV/XVI, Microfiche Supplement, Part 1
   
5. Laos, Volumes XV/XVI, Microfiche Supplement, Part 2
   
6. East Asia-Pacific Region; Cambodia; Laos, Volume XVI (Full Text, Ebook)
   
7. Indonesia, Volume XVII (Full Text, Ebook)
   
8. Indonesia; Japan; Korea, Volumes XVII/XVIII, Microfiche Supplement
   

Retrospective volumes

Foreign Relations of the United States

1. The Intelligence Community, 19501955 (Full Text, PDF)
   
2. Guatemala, 19521954 (Full Text, Ebook)
   

Foreign Relations of the United States, 19641968

1. Congo, 19601968, Volume XXIII (Full Text, Ebook, PDF)
   

[Lauren Johnson]

I have been willing to keep an open mind in this thread, it's just that I am not sure what it is that I am trying to keep an open mind about. It's all so strangely vague. Documents. Facts. Stories. They might mean some of this; they might mean a little of that. Or not.

But this is the underlying narrative. Or at least, I think this is what it is all about.

Castro was evil; even worse than Batista. He needed to be taken out. The true Cold Warriors in the USG, and in particular Dulles and the CIA, knew this, and knew the Cuban people would rise up and fight. The BOP invasion would have worked and was fully intended to work had it not been for the half hearted Cold Warriors who were basically chicken. Sure, JFK wanted Castro gone. But he was not up to what was required. And now we have still have Castro, when we could have quickly dispatched him. The Cuban people would have been free. Did Castro have JFK killed like some Cubans think? More likely, the CIA did it. The man was a coward and betrayed his country.

EDIT: Scott, if I am wrong, go ahead and tell me. But please, no more rope-a-dope. It won't work here.

[Scott Kaiser]

I have been willing to keep an open mind in this thread, it's just that I am not sure what it is that I am trying to keep an open mind about. It's all so strangely vague. Documents. Facts. Stories. They might mean some of this; they might mean a little of that. Or not.

But this is the underlying narrative. Or at least, I think this is what it is all about.

Castro was evil; even worse than Batista. He needed to be taken out. The true Cold Warriors in the USG, and in particular Dulles and the CIA, knew this, and knew the Cuban people would rise up and fight. The BOP invasion would have worked and was fully intended to work had it not been for the half hearted Cold Warriors who were basically chicken. Sure, JFK wanted Castro gone. But he was not up to what was required. And now we have still have Castro, when we could have quickly dispatched him. The Cuban people would have been free. Did Castro have JFK killed like some Cubans think? More likely, the CIA did it. The man was a coward and betrayed his country.

EDIT: Scott, if I am wrong, go ahead and tell me. But please, no more rope-a-dope. It won't work here.

Lauren Johnson, you are the first person to somewhat agree with what I've said, and you are right. About the chicken part, I have given my presentation at Lancer 2013. I said, "if Castro could be assassinated, it would take a woman to do it". I agree with all you say. Like a fool, I opened my big mouth sometime last year, I said that there would be another attempt on Castro this year, I heard about it, I knew about it, and could have been apart of it.

You may have heard about the four that got arrested in Cuba, that's all I'm going to say about that, so don't ask me any questions. I don't know anything. But, you are right Lauren Johnson.

[Drew Phipps]

Castro was evil; even worse than Batista. He needed to be taken out. The true Cold Warriors in the USG, and in particular Dulles and the CIA, knew this, and knew the Cuban people would rise up and fight. The BOP invasion would have worked and was fully intended to work had it not been for the half hearted Cold Warriors who were basically chicken. Sure, JFK wanted Castro gone. But he was not up to what was required. And now we have still have Castro, when we could have quickly dispatched him. The Cuban people would have been free. Did Castro have JFK killed like some Cubans think? More likely, the CIA did it. The man was a coward and betrayed his country.

Lauren: are you saying that Dulles was a coward, or Kennedy was? And who was chicken, Dulles and Co. or the military? Sorry, I'm not following you.

[Scott Kaiser]

Castro was evil; even worse than Batista. He needed to be taken out. The true Cold Warriors in the USG, and in particular Dulles and the CIA, knew this, and knew the Cuban people would rise up and fight. The BOP invasion would have worked and was fully intended to work had it not been for the half hearted Cold Warriors who were basically chicken. Sure, JFK wanted Castro gone. But he was not up to what was required. And now we have still have Castro, when we could have quickly dispatched him. The Cuban people would have been free. Did Castro have JFK killed like some Cubans think? More likely, the CIA did it. The man was a coward and betrayed his country.

Lauren: are you saying that Dulles was a coward, or Kennedy was? And who was chicken, Dulles and Co. or the military? Sorry, I'm not following you.

Drew, don't misunderstand what Lauren Johnson is saying when she says "The man was a coward and betrayed his country."

The CIA branded JFK as a (traitor), a coward, and therefore, he (JFK) betrayed his country.

[Lauren Johnson]

Castro was evil; even worse than Batista. He needed to be taken out. The true Cold Warriors in the USG, and in particular Dulles and the CIA, knew this, and knew the Cuban people would rise up and fight. The BOP invasion would have worked and was fully intended to work had it not been for the half hearted Cold Warriors who were basically chicken. Sure, JFK wanted Castro gone. But he was not up to what was required. And now we have still have Castro, when we could have quickly dispatched him. The Cuban people would have been free. Did Castro have JFK killed like some Cubans think? More likely, the CIA did it. The man was a coward and betrayed his country.

Lauren: are you saying that Dulles was a coward, or Kennedy was? And who was chicken, Dulles and Co. or the military? Sorry, I'm not following you.

Hi Drew, I was trying to summarize Scott's POV about the BOP and the death of JFK. From his POV, not mine, JFK, a cold warrior, did not have the heart for the fight that was necessary, whereas Dulles did. JFK paid the ultimate price for his cowardice. He deserved what he got from the POV of Dulles et. al. Whether Scott is personally glad, I don't know. What this has to do with his father's death, I also don't know.

I am personally the student of Douglass and DiEugenio.

Does that help?

[Scott Kaiser]

What happened at the BOP is the prelude of the assassination, I have been saying this for years now, perhaps, I now understand why my father was poking his nose into it, and how he ended up with the photo's he stole from the CIA. I have no doubt what so ever that the CIA set the whole thing up from beginning to the final report of the WC.