Has Lifton Cracked The Case?

[Malcolm John]

Thanks, I don't believe the SS agents fired or anything, but it seems it is the case that the car slowed, perhaps stopped completely, and right at the point where dark complected man was signalling, its all too convenient, apparently the clenched fist is the military way of telling someone to stop, personally, though I am not as informed as I'd like to be, that all adds up to he had to have been an active participant.

His reactions are the complete opposite of what you would expect, and it seems, with the Z film being altered, the timeframe is much longer perhaps over 10 seconds, no way could a highly trained SS agent react as badly as that over that amount of time and with so much convenience for the fatal shot without it being deliberate. In my opinion anyway.

I also believe I am right in saying Houston Street was blocked off at the corner of Elm, so once they made the turn from Main onto Houston there was no way out, they had to take the left onto Elm, into the kill zone, which is scarily eerie, even if the driver had second thoughts or if he wasn't in on it and say saw a rifle in a window, to get away they would still have had to turn left onto Elm and drive right through the triangulation (at least) of fire. Amazing, it really does seem to have been an elaborately planned overkill operation, of breathtaking proportions.

[Drew Phipps]

The Secret Service guys that planned the route were Lawson and Sorrels. The route was disclosed to Dallas PD and other local people on November 18.

My digital analysis of the Zapruder Film (which led me to the conclusion that the Zapruder film is not a reliable source of data, although it seems to be useful in approximating the time intervals between various event), indicated (if the Zapruder film were accurate) a gradual slowing of the limousine prior to the head shot. If the Zapruder film has been altered, it cannot be trusted. If Clint Hill could run to the limo, though, it must have been moving rather slowly.

However, an Altgens photograph confirms that the lead car containing Cheif Curry, and Sorrels, was not far forward of the limo (prior to the underpass - even though not visible on Zapruder), and it is my guess that the lead car had its brake lights on, which would lead Greer to slow down (without even thinking about it). There are also folks that speculate that the lead car deliberately blocked the limo. However, I think that the most fundamental question to be asked is, what do you think is going to happen if you ask a Secret Service guy to BOTH put himself in the line of fire, while also allowing the President to be shot?

[Albert Doyle]

The regular, JFK-friendly limousine driver Thomas Shipman died of a "heart attack" 6 weeks prior to Dallas.

[Malcolm John]

The Secret Service guys that planned the route were Lawson and Sorrels. The route was disclosed to Dallas PD and other local people on November 18.

My digital analysis of the Zapruder Film (which led me to the conclusion that the Zapruder film is not a reliable source of data, although it seems to be useful in approximating the time intervals between various event), indicated (if the Zapruder film were accurate) a gradual slowing of the limousine prior to the head shot. If the Zapruder film has been altered, it cannot be trusted. If Clint Hill could run to the limo, though, it must have been moving rather slowly.

However, an Altgens photograph confirms that the lead car containing Cheif Curry, and Sorrels, was not far forward of the limo (prior to the underpass - even though not visible on Zapruder), and it is my guess that the lead car had its brake lights on, which would lead Greer to slow down (without even thinking about it). There are also folks that speculate that the lead car deliberately blocked the limo. However, I think that the most fundamental question to be asked is, what do you think is going to happen if you ask a Secret Service guy to BOTH put himself in the line of fire, while also allowing the President to be shot?

Interesting, that is plausible, though I don't think it would be too difficult to convince Greer to participate, you just explain to him national security, things bigger than you understand, and for the stick threaten his family, then he would be left with no choice.

As for the route, surely that must have been planned quite a long time in advance, with the mayor being was it Earl or Charles Cabell I forget which they obviously could have controlled that so I think that was probably planned a long time in advance.

Also, Gary Shaw says in a TV interview he gave that when they scouted the route they didn't go all the way to the Trade Mart, they just got the end of Main and said right from here its onto Stemmons and to the Trade Mart then I think doubled back, so the SS never got to see the 120 degree turn onto Elm etc. That's his theory anyway, it would make sense.

[Malcolm John]

The regular, JFK-friendly limousine driver Thomas Shipman died of a "heart attack" 6 weeks prior to Dallas.

Now that is fascinating, this is the sort of stuff I'm really interested in, we now know that the CIA etc could induce heart attacks in the 1960's, and perhaps they viewed this guy as incorruptible so had to eliminate him to get a guy in who they could induce to participate, very very interesting, so many people involved witnesses etc died of 'heart attacks'.

[Dawn Meredith]

The "theory" that Greer fired a shot is nonsense. However people who saw a different Z film have said that the car came to a stop. Even on the extant film the car slows so much as to arouse suspicion. The SS - some of them- had to be involved.
Oh welcome to DPF, by the way.

Dawn

[Malcolm John]

Thanks. I agree that theories that Greer or Kellerman fired or even Jackie are laughable drivel, and in my opinion probably deliberately put out by the actual perpetrators as misdirection and to trivialise real research by associating it with nonsense like that.

However, I also agree, given 15-20 witnesses said the car actually stopped, and where it stopped/slowed down being so convenient for the head shot/s, and the driver looking back instead of trying to get out of there etc all indicate almost certain involvement of the two SS agents in the car. Also the revelation above that the previous driver died 6 weeks before adds weight to that.

Even things like the car crawling down Elm, and in testimony from those who claim to have seen the other Z film that it took the turn onto Elm really wide almost missing the turn and hitting the kerb, all point to the driver being involved.

One of the most intriguing thing I heard was that there are copies of the unaltered Z film in existence, one was with HL Hunt apparently, for his own personal viewing pleasure. We will never know but that is fascinating, perhaps that was one of his requirements for funding the assassination.

[Albert Doyle]

The pertinent question is how much did the core of White House Detail whom agent Bolden witnessed saying they would not protect JFK if he were fired upon reflect on Dealey Plaza? Was there a manipulatable consensus there to be enlisted in covert activity in the Plaza and was it resourced?


As to Lifton I'd be curious if he advanced his theory and developed it into a new book?

[Malcolm John]

Did they say that? Do you have a source for that? Thats incredible, they should have been sacked on the spot for saying that, I've never heard that before.

I actually watched that Lifton video last night, he has some great information and is well placed to speak etc, but is one of the worst public speakers I've ever seen, it was painful viewing.

[Drew Phipps]

Did they say that? Do you have a source for that?

Believe its Abraham Bolden, first African American Secret Service guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Bolden

Bolden found a lot of trouble. You'll have to decide for yourself if he's credible or not.