The Truth about the WC at Last

[Drew Phipps]

thanks!

[Drew Phipps]

maybe I'm missing a link or something. I see Fetzer's article on Groden but they don't talk about Geneva Hines at all.

I just love Fetzer, always good for a laugh:

"The strongest argument that has been advanced against the Altgens6 having been altered has been that it went out over the wire within 30 minutes or so, which would not have allowed enough time for that to have happened....Since the photo was altered, there had to have been time to have altered it."

[Bob Prudhomme]

maybe I'm missing a link or something. I see Fetzer's article on Groden but they don't talk about Geneva Hines at all.

I just love Fetzer, always good for a laugh:

"The strongest argument that has been advanced against the Altgens6 having been altered has been that it went out over the wire within 30 minutes or so, which would not have allowed enough time for that to have happened....Since the photo was altered, there had to have been time to have altered it."

Geneva Hine is discussed down near the bottom of the page.

[Drew Phipps]

Thanks, found it. Exactly the same material previously posted, and unfortunately, no more verifiable.

[Bob Prudhomme]

"I actually found a woman some years ago. She was terrified. She did not want to come forward. And she finally agreed to give an interview, and I did interview her. When the shots actually went off, she was talking to Lee Oswald on the second floor. We always assumed that Lee had the change, that he had had the change for the machine. He didn't. He went into the office across from the snack room with a dollar bill and asked for change. He said, "No pennies, please." And, as the change was being counted out into his hand, the shots went off. And they looked at each other, this woman and Lee, and [asked], "What was that?" Backfires, firecrack[ers], who knew?
He got the rest of the change, walked back across the hall, bought the Coke and then just a little over a minute later there was a gun in his ribs held by Officer Baker. Lee had an airtight alibi. He could not possibly have done this. She told this story to the Warren Commission. They told her to keep her mouth shut. And she did. She told very few people. Very few people. I was one of the few that she did. So I got to speak to her because I had a friend who knew a friend of hers. I had to promise her I would never reveal any of this until after she was gone. And now she is. The whole story, including her name, will be in the next book."

I had actually heard a vague reference made to this some time ago but I did not know it was Groden who said this. This is also the first time I have read it, and I find it quite intriguing, to say the least.

If this were ever proven, which seems impossible now with the passing of Ms. Hine, it would be all over for the Warren Commission.

So, what are we to believe? Is Groden a dedicated researcher who has cracked the case, or is he, as maintained by many, a disinfo agent with a "new" piece of evidence designed to discredit the whole "Prayer Man" story? Try as I might, I can't see how it would further the LN case by removing Oswald from the front steps, at the time of the shooting, and placing him on the 2nd floor with Geneva Hine.

Sometimes, a person doesn't know just what to believe. Is this "their" intention?

At the very least, I apologize to Albert.

[Drew Phipps]

Who would you rather be right, Groden or Fetzer?

Survey time?

[Bob Prudhomme]

Who would you rather be right, Groden or Fetzer?

Survey time?

Good question, Drew. Jim Fetzer is an interesting man. Some of his theories are a bit "out there" but the thing I admire about him is that he is unafraid to ask the uncomfortable questions that most people, out of fear of derision, stay away from.

A perfect example of this is the yet to be explained mystery of Motorcycle Patrolman Chaney allegedly passing JFK's limo after the head shot and racing ahead to inform Chief of Police Jesse Curry of the assassination. Of course, there is no evidence of this in the Zapruder film, yet we have confirmation of this from Chief Curry, Secret Service Agents Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels and Motorcycle Patrolmen Bobby Hargis, James Chaney and Marrion Baker. This alone is, to me, at least, one of the most compelling arguments for alteration of the Z film.

[Jim DiEugenio]

If one looks at Baker's first day affidavit, there is no mention of it at all. Period. And what makes that even harder to understand is this: When Baker filled out the affidavit with no mention at all of this incident, Oswald was sitting right across from him in the room.

I thought Baker's first DPD report/affidavit was that his encounter with a unnamed TSBD employee (who was vouched for by Truly) was on the third or fourth floor...which would have been much better for the official story. Oswald was sitting right there in the station at that point as well, and he is not named in that statement. Why wouldn't a post-assassination frame up use that version of events, as opposed to having to settle for the far more problematic lunchroom story?

I must say that the Geneva Hines WC testimony is the best evidence I've seen so far supporting the idea that Oswald was on the first floor the entire time of the assassination. Since she was facing the door out and didn't see him leave the second floor. She was busy on the phone, though.

Because in this scenario:

1.) It leaves open the possibility of unnamed conspirators.

2.) And this then matches up with Worrell saying he saw a man escaping out the back of the TSBD.



I actually think that may be right. Although Sean thinks the hit team escaped on the freight elevator.

[Jim DiEugenio]

From my review of Absolute Proof:

"For at least the last 3-4 years Groden has trumpeted a new witness who he says gives Oswald an absolutely airtight alibi. This reviewer actually heard the author talk about this person at the COPA Conference in Dallas three years ago. He again discusses this witness in Chapter 2 of Absolute Proof. Here, he calls this witness Geraldine Reid.
He begins his discussion by saying that Mrs. Robert Reid, who the Warren Commission interviewed, was named Delores Reid. He then says there was a second Mrs. Reid who also worked on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository and her name was Geraldine Reid. (Groden, p. 20) It is important to detail from his book the importance that Groden gives Geraldine Reid. He writes that the Commission "avoided mentioning this Mrs. Reid like the plague." Why? Because she was flown to Washington and interrogated by the Commission but her testimony "was so devastating to their preconceived conclusions of Oswald's guilt that they buried all references to her." (ibid) Referring to an interview he did with her, Groden writes, "I was threatened to keep my mouth shut, or else." He then says that the Commission tried to keep Geraldine a secret and concealed the fact there were actually two Mrs. Reids. He then quotes more fully from his interview with the second Mrs. Reid which took place before she passed away relatively recently.
There were some unusual circumstances to the interview Groden did with this woman. For instance, no tapes were permitted, and Groden was not allowed to refer to her testimony before she passed away. Reid told Groden that about one minute before the shots rang out, Oswald walked into the office on the second floor across from the snack room. He needed some change for the soda machine. He went to Geraldine and gave her a dollar and asked her for change. At that moment they both heard the sound of gunshots. But, oddly, neither of them said anything about the sounds. She continued giving him change and he walked toward the snack room. She concluded her story with, "That's the last time I saw him until he passed by me a few minutes later as he was leaving the building." (Groden, p. 21) By this time she had learned what happened and told him that Kennedy had been shot.
Groden then says he was introduced to Geraldine Reid and her story by a man names David Thiess, a former investigator for the Office of Naval Intelligence. Thiess told him he knew she had been interviewed by the Commission and they had suppressed her story and wiped her out of the record. But further, he had seen the concealed documents about her. Both Reid and Theiss died, Theiss asAbsolute Proof was going to press. (ibid)
After the book was published, Richard Gilbride talked about the Geraldine Reid story at Greg Parker's fine forum, Reopen Kennedy Case. As the reader can see by reading this fascinating review of the facts, it appears that, to begin with, Groden got some of the details wrong. There was no Delores Reid working in the Depository Building. The Mrs. Robert Reid Groden refers to was first named Geraldean (at times spelled Jeraldean). And she passed away in 1973. So it turns out that there was no Geraldine Reid also, at least with his exact spelling.
What appears to have happened is that in an FBI report made on November 24th, a Mrs. Sanders talked about Geraldean Reid but the FBI agent incorrectly spelled it as "Geraldine". But the giveaway is that Sanders gave the agents the phone number of Mrs. Geraldine/Jeraldean Reid, a key point Groden apparently missed. So they were talking about the same person. Obviously, if this was the only Geraldean/Geraldine Reid at the Depository, and she died in 1973, then this could not be the person that Groden talked to several years ago, and who died relatively recently.
What appears to have happened here is that Mr. Theiss, who conveniently died right before the book came out, somehow concocted a hoax to play on the research community. This is a problem that has plagued the community since 1964. And Groden did not do the proper follow-up to prevent himself from falling for the phony "Geraldine Reid" playlet. We owe thanks to Greg Parker and the frequenters of his forum for correcting the record on this issue."

[Albert Doyle]

That's good to know. The question then is who did Groden interview? If Groden got taken then it's his responsibility as a dedicated researcher to expose it before more people quote it. It's understandable to fall for a tempting story. It's less so to not expose it once it becomes questionable.

If this story is bogus it still has value because it shows the desperation of the conspirators to throw truth-seekers off their trail. If it was disinformation designed to discredit researchers Groden can still salvage the fact he was played by the guilty parties. He should then try to research how whoever he interviewed was induced to tell a false story. I personally would like to know more about who exactly Groden interviewed and what their agenda was. If Parker exposed a disinformation plot he didn't go far enough. There's still a story there.


From what I've seen of the Reopen The Kennedy Case site it appears to be a juvenile name-calling site. I cringe when I hear a conspiracy exposing author like DiEugenio refer positively to a site where a victim like Ralph Yates is denied by some real garbage arguments while they take credit for it and abuse people who stand up for him. The assassination community must be bored because a new sport has arisen where pecksniffs like Lee Farley and Martin Hay think they are going to gain fame by attacking the veracity of main assassination victims like Commander Pitzer and others. This has led to an ill-inspired momentum where authors like Peter Janney are put through the mill by overzealous researchers cynically questioning their material while missing the obvious. While selling themselves as pruners of bad branches they have lopped off some serious fruit-bearing limbs of assassination evidence. Those misguided researchers tend to not come back and argue the finer details.