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Well this will be awkward. I'm putting it here until it becomes clear what is happening. In any case it will probably be the end of Malaysian Airlines as a business. Two planes lost in very odd circumstances.
Quote: Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live
A Malaysia Airlines passenger plane has reportedly crashed in Ukraine, on the border with Russia. All the latest details here
![[Image: malaysia_crash01_2978340b.jpg]](http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02978/malaysia_crash01_2978340b.jpg) Malaysian Airlines Boeing777 has crashed on Ukraine-Russian border Photo: RilekOne Corner/ YouTube
![[Image: harriet-alexander_2838459j.jpg]](http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02838/harriet-alexander_2838459j.jpg)
By Harriet Alexander, and Roland Oliphant
4:34PM BST 17 Jul 2014
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Interfax reports that a Malaysian plane has crashed in Ukraine
The plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur
295 people were on board
Reports that the plane could have been shot down
16.42 The Ukrainian interior ministry adviser, quoted by Interfax, says there are no survivors.
16.38 More footage is emerging of the scene, minute by minute.
This is the latest from YouTube
16.36 Our Washington correspondent, Raf Sanchez, has the following observation:
![[Image: Raf-Sanchez_60_1932308a.jpg]](http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01932/Raf-Sanchez_60_1932308a.jpg) It's still not clear what happened to today's Malaysia Airlines flight but last night, as the US announced new sanctions on Russia, American officials suggested Russian weapons were behind the downing of a Ukrainian transport aircraft on Monday. Here's what they had to say:
"On July 14th, Ukrainians lost an An-26 transport jet, which was shot down from an altitude of 21,000 feet, with eight crew on board. And only very sophisticated weapons systems would be able to reach this height."
16.35 <noframe>Twitter: Sky News Newsdesk - Update - Interfax news agency reports Malaysian passenger airliner with 295 people on board was shot down at altitude</noframe>
16.34 Interfax are saying that the plane was shot down.
16.28 Initial reports suggested that the flight could have been Malaysia Airlines MH17, which left Amsterdam at 12.14.
It was due to arrive in Kuala Lumpur at 06.09.
16.27 Unconfirmed reports on Twitter showed YouTube footage of a large pall of smoke in fields near Shaktersk.
The footage could not be verified.
16.20 The plane is thought to have crashed near Shaktersk.
16.15 Interfax news agency are claiming that a Malaysian passenger plane has crashed in Ukraine, near the Russian border.
"A Boeing Malaysian Airlines that was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur began to descend about 50km before entering Russian airspace, and was subsequently found burning on the ground in Ukraine," an aviation source told Interfax.
Interfax said that 295 people were on board at the time.
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17-07-2014, 04:56 PM
(This post was last modified: 17-07-2014, 05:14 PM by Peter Lemkin.)
Cue in the Twilight Zone music........::lilgreenman:::  :::trenchcoatspy::
A Boeing 777 full of passengers - but it doesn't really make sense....in the 'usual sense', as an airline would be flying at high altitude and easily identifiable as a civilian airline.....while ground to air missiles can reach such altitudes, those that can reach such heights are built to differentiate foes from 'friends' [including civilian aircraft]. 295 dead!!!! - and a hell of a lot of commercial planes fly in that HUGE area - will any dare to fly there now?!!? I'll bet not...one can 'fly around', but that will add cost and a few hours to a flight...and make some flights totally impossible in the immediate area. All three sides are pointing fingers at the others - 'they did it, and we did not'...:  : Despite the fact that a civilian airliner flying at high altitude [cruising altitude usually between 30,000 to 39,000 feet] should be safe, it is quite insane to fly over an active combat area - and it seems it was shot down in just the most contested area on the Ukraine/Russian border.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
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I will note that the Russian earlier today were denying the downing of the Ukrainian military transport plane that crashed this morning or last night.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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Also this plane would have been cruising at top altitude on its way from Kuala Lumour to Amsterdam. It wouldn't be like the Ukrainian military planes swooping on the eastern anti-junta militias when they drop their bombs on them. And who would confuse the 2 very different types of planes? Only some completely one blind.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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Unconfirmed, but it is now being stated that it was shot down by a BUK Russian-made missile. Time will tell. Any side could have such..... Again, I believe such a system would be able to recognize a civilian from a military plane....if one knew how to use it and if one wanted to discriminate. Also, it is possible the passenger plane might unknowingly have flown over a military plane - and the missile changed target. Or - someone wanted to bring down a civilian plane not involved in the conflict...but I doubt it....all sides now will be very circumspect to try other shoot downs, I hope.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
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Ah, sorry Peter I didn't see your post above until now.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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It is a minor issue, but yes, Malaysian Airlines, which has been struggling since the disappearance of their plane is soon to be bankrupt and gone.....due to this. Experts are saying that a determination of who actually fired the missile is limited to the USA and Russia only, via spy satellites....and don't be surprised if the two do not agree. Besides the tragic loss of life, this could potentially bring the US and Russia very near a stand-down, if not played very carefully!
In fact, as I write this it was just announced that Putin and Obama have spoken to prevent any nervous trigger fingers towards more serious 'things'.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
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Peter Lemkin Wrote:It is a minor issue, but yes, Malaysian Airlines, which has been struggling since the disappearance of their plane is soon to be bankrupt and gone.....due to this. Experts are saying that a determination of who actually fired the missile is limited to the USA and Russia only, via spy satellites....and don't be surprised if the two do not agree. Besides the tragic loss of life, this could potentially bring the US and Russia very near a stand-down, if not played very carefully!
Yes indeed! I note how quick Ukraine was to point fingers at rebels and to collect the wreckage too. May have just fallen down because of poor maintenance though.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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Notice again what the debris fields of real airliners looks like when they go down, unlike Pennsylvania/Pentagon on 9/11.
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Today is the 18th anniversary of the missile shootdown of TWA 800.
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