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Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live

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Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live
Lauren Johnson Offline
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#21
17-07-2014, 11:14 PM
The Saker has this to say:

Quote:I am very sorry to have to tell you all that it is too early to conclude that the Novorussian forces did not shoot down the Malaysian airliners. Though most Novorussian air defense systems are man-portable, the Resistance forces did get their hands on some 9K37 Buk missile systems which are quite capable of hitting a civilian airliner at normal cruising speed and altitude.

I am not, repeat, NOT saying that the Novorussians did it. Furthermore, at least one Russian military expert, Igor Korochenko, has declared that the Ukrainian side had officially declared that the Ukrainian soldiers had managed to disable these systems before they fell into the Novorussian hands. But even that is hardly proof of anything. First, I have seen no such Ukrainian official statement. Second, the Ukrainians soldiers could have lied to cover their collective read ends. Third, the Novorusssians could have fixed these systems. So unless the Novorussians have some solid proof that their Buks were inoperable, they have to be included in a list of possible suspects.

There are already speculations about a false flag, about Ukie military aircraft seen flying next to the Malaysian aircraft, even about some parachutes seen near the place were the plane was shot down. I have even seen some speculations about Putin's official aircraft looking like the Malaysian one and that this could have been an attempt to shoot it down. Clearly the rumor mill is blasting at full power.

Still, the Ukies have already immensely benefited from this incident: now that all the media is completely focused on what happened to this Malaysian airliner, nobody is informed of the catastrophic failure of Poroshenko "surprise" offensive. Right there we already have the first cui bono going to the junta. Second, since no matter what happened the western regimes and media will blame the Russians for this incident, the Ukies will use it in their propaganda campaign (they apparently have already asked NATO for "help" whatever that means). So that is a second cui bono for the junta. As for the Novorussians and Russia, this incident is really the last thing they need.

For whatever it's worth, and without wanting to give anybody false hopes, I personally think that it is extremely unlikely that the Russians did it because they have a fully integrated, multi layered, advance air defense systems staffed only by specialists. In contrast, the Ukies have an old, decrepit, non-integrated air defense "system" staffed by underpaid, demoralized and poorly trained conscripts. And since the Kremlin likes to maintain the illusion that it does not control the Novorussians, even if there is proof that the latter are responsible for this catastrophe, this will not directly implicate Russia (which would have been the worst option). I hope that the Russians will be able to prove that the Novorussians did not do it by, for example, finding key parts of the missile(s) which hit MH17 or by showing all the Resistance missiles "unshot", right there in the hangars were they were found.

Another thing which has not been done is a careful calculation of the exact flight envelope of the missiles in Novorussian hands. In the real world, you cannot just say that a missile can shoot a target going at speed X and altitude Y. You need to calculate an exact flight envelope and compare it against the exact flight characteristics of the target supposedly hit. In other words, until somebody makes such an analysis, there is no proof that the Novorussian Buks could have shot down this aircraft.

Then, let's see what the black boxes show. Apparently, those were found by the good guys and sent to Moscow. Also, the Russian Air Defenses have the exact flight parameters of the Malaysian aircraft and of any missile(s) which could have hit him. If the Ukies did it, chances are pretty good that the Russians will be able to prove it. Alas, if the Novorussians did it, the Russians will probably also provide the evidence as covering up for it would be foolish.

For the time being, let's not run after each rumor and let's just wait for 48 hours or so, when at least we will have some facts to look at. And let's pray that this was not a mistake by the Novorussians.
"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I

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R.K. Locke Offline
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#22
17-07-2014, 11:15 PM
Peter Lemkin Wrote:
Albert Doyle Wrote:Today is the 18th anniversary of the missile shootdown of TWA 800.

It is oddly also the 17th anniversary, to the day, of the first flight of the 777!



Loren Coleman has posted a blog about some of these coincidences/synchronicities:

http://copycateffect.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/MH17.html
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#23
18-07-2014, 12:20 AM
I saw a tweet that a Spanish speaking ATC in Ukraine said it was the Ukrainian military shot it down. I'll see if I can find it but it was last night and might be lost in the avalanche of subsequent tweets. I have seen the Spanish speaking ACT comment on other Ukrainian matters and he is a known entity.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

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#24
18-07-2014, 12:49 AM
I asked The Saker about the "transcript," and he said:

Quote:Frankly, I wish I did not have to, but here is what I can say. I have no idea whether this is truly a transcript, or a US-provided doctored recording. I sure hope it's not real if only because if it is, it shows some major lack of operational security on the Novorussian/Russian side. I will say this though: the recording claims that "Cossacks from a checkpoint shot down the plane" now that sounds really wrong and makes me thing that this is a doctored tape based on a conversation of another shooting down, possibly of an An-26. I just don't see a Buk at a checkpoint manned by Cossacks shooting 10km in the sky to shoot down a plane flying so far away from it. Just doesn't sound right to me.
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#25
18-07-2014, 01:11 AM
I would love to see the transcript of Putin and Obama's conversation which happened just after it crashed. Apparenty Obama was on his AF1 when he called Putin. News came in about the Malaysian crash as they were talking. Whitehouse isn't releasing the transcript.

Quote:

Obama Was Speaking To Putin When The Malaysia Passenger Plane Crashed In Ukraine

Brett LoGiurato Today at 3:05 AM
In this June 17, 2013, file photo, President Barack Obama meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Enniskillen, Northern Ireland.

President Barack Obama spoke to Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday at the Kremlin's request, a conversation in which they briefly discussed reports that a Malaysia Airlines passenger plane carrying nearly 300 people had been reportedly shot down near the Ukrainian border.
"President Putin near the end of the call with Obama noted the early reports of a downed passenger jet near the Russia-Ukraine border," a White House pool report said, reading out comments from White House press secretary Josh Earnest aboard Air Force One.
The Kremlin also provided a readout on its website: "The Russian leader informed the U.S. president of the report from air traffic controllers that the Malaysian plane had crashed on Ukrainian territory, which had arrived immediately before the phone call."
There were no survivors of the crash. An adviser to Ukraine's Interior Minister has said 23 U.S. citizens were among those on board who were killed in the crash.
Earnest told reporters the Kremlin requested the call to discuss new sanctions leveled by the United States on Russia Wednesday. The Kremlin said the leaders "discussed in detail the acute crisis in Ukraine."
"Putin reiterated the need for the immediate and unconditional cessation of hostilities by both parties in the south-east of Ukraine, [which] has led to numerous deaths and forced hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians to seek refuge in Russia," the Kremlin said in its readout, according to a Google translation.
The Kremlin also noted Putin expressed "serious disappointment" over the U.S.'s decision to impose new sanctions on Russia.
The White House has not provided a full readout of the call.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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#26
18-07-2014, 02:44 AM
Tracy Riddle Wrote:Notice again what the debris fields of real airliners looks like when they go down, unlike Pennsylvania/Pentagon on 9/11.
Or Malaysia 370 even in water!
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Magda Hassan Offline
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#27
18-07-2014, 03:03 AM
Found it. I've google translated it but this is his Twitter feed from yesterday starting at the beginning.

[QUOTE]
View translation Retweeted by ✈ Carlos.
[Image: 498ffb4e5fa43b2a9fffd218f3ca0abe_normal.png] CNN in Spanish @ CNNEE · 2h

What kind of weapon could have shot down the plane of Malaysia Airlines? http://cnn.it/WlmSwJ

#MH17 pic.twitter.com/fmOVUVcgTB
[Image: BsyCQNaCAAEUwOz.jpg:large]



View more photos and videos





View translation Retweeted by ✈ Carlos.
[Image: twitterProfilePhoto_normal.jpg] Mexican policy @ politicosmex · 3h

# CNN obtained video where the flight # [B]MH17 has a wing on fire before crashing pic.twitter.com/tbPd6WLlUN[/B]

Malaysia Airlines [Image: Bsxs_HACIAAzk1H.png:large]



View more photos and videos


[B][/B]
[B][/B]
[B][/B]
View translation Retweeted by ✈ Carlos.
[Image: default_profile_2_normal.png] We Razh @ mirazh1000 · 2h

@ spainbuca as if you were the best expert on what is going on therehttp:// inosmi.ru/world/20140718 / 221741366.html ...

View conversation





Retweeted by ✈ Carlos.
[Image: georgeredtie_normal.jpg] George Hatcher Sr. @ George Hatcher · 2h

We cannot verify these #MH17 pix shared with us pic.twitter.com/19T8O7dpuI

[Image: Bsx8j9-IUAAdYQb.png:large]



View more photos and videos





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 3h

I was not part of this conflict, as 80/100 citizens here who just want to live in peace, pro and one other pro





✈ Carlos. followed itxaP and Alberto Gorki

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itxaP

@itxaP
Journalist freelance in Middle East - Isabel P. HispanTV - http://www.eldiario.es/
- http:// diagonalperiodico.net




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Alberto Gorky

@Alberto_Gorki
Antifascist








View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 3h

Unfortunately all are confirmed, unfortunately, I do not care personally who launched the missile, there are 290 people dead





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 3h

Some reviews are devastating, tw q what is data, like it or not, only data on my last tw is my opinion I have the right q





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

The military report, picks up where the missile was launched, saying that no one knows is false





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

Our response was, these radars do not collect launching missiles, the military if there were no doubts





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

Such is the decline that accompanied the military foreigners who came first came to us asking us to tell your version





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

The face of the soldiers who came later saying but you have cast, I keep doubts





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

How to take the control tower minutes after knowing all the details, fast made us think that they were





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

290 dead innocent people. What a useless war, where patriotism is bought with money





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

If military commanders and other superiors knew not,





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

Military commanders here (ATC) control tower, confirm that the missile is the army of ukraine,





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

The soldiers under the orders of Interior Minister knew at all times what happened.





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

For those who do not know, say so, there are military orders of the defense minister and military orders of Interior Minister





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h

The military high command did not order the release of the missile, he was someone's hand on behalf of ukraine





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 5h

Military radar data collected if missile launched the plane, no civilian radar





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 5h

The report indicates where the missile left open, and is specified is not of the self in rebel areas





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 5h

The official report signed by the military authorities in Kiev already control the government has,,,, downed





View translation Retweeted by ✈ Carlos.
[Image: rt_sepa_mas_normal.png] In Spanish RT @ ActualidadRT · 5h

LAST TIME Driver Air: The Boeing 777 "Volos escorted by two Ukrainian fighters" before disappearing # MH17 http://es.rt.com/yW7

View summary





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 5h

Control delivers military now officially the plane was shot down by missile





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 6h

Airspace is closed over demolition for fear





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 6h

Closes airspace





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 7h

The fighters flew about 777, up to 3 minutes before disappearing from the radar, just 3 minutes





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 7h

Days ago I said here, kiev military wanted to rise against the current president, this may be a way to timoshenko orders





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 7h

Military ukraine confirm that he was, but still does not know where the order came





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 7h

Interior Minister if he knew that the fighters were in the area, the defense minister not.





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 7h

Here the military commanders who manage and support to other military orders, could be, but no, the pro-Russian





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 7h

In radar this all collected, for unbelievers, brought down by kiev, here we know and military air traffic control also





✈ Carlos. followed Carolina Ocampo, Manu Abu Carlos, John Müller and 3 others

[Image: cf1724907a5a63fa4db1d70f10a70d2f_bigger.jpeg] User Actions
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Carolina Ocampo

@ carito_ocampo
International Journalist channel NTN24





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Manu Abu Carlos

@Manu_Abu_Carlos
#[B]SOSPalestina







[/B]
View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 8h

At 7:00 minutes the demolition was notified later the tower was taken with our foreign staff still here q





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 8h

Just disappear aircraft B 777 Malaysia Airlines kiev military authority informed us of the demolition, as you know?





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 8h

Yes kiev authorities want to tell the truth, I picked this 2 fighters flew very close minutes before, not shooting down a fighter





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 8h

The plane flew B 777 escorted by two fighter ukraine until minutes before disappearing from the radar,





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 9h

When possible I keep writing





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 9h

Expatriate staff makes kiev authorities in the tower? Gathering all the information





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 9h

We have confirmation. Downed aircraft, the authority of Kiev, already has the information down, we are calm now





View translation Retweeted by ✈ Carlos.
[Image: moscu_ricardomarquina007_normal.jpg] Ricardo Marquina @ RusiaSeMueve · 10h

I fear that this has NOT been an accident. Here is someone has gone too far and I hope to pay, no matter who is





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 10h

Before I remove the tlf or I break the head, flattened by kiev





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 10h

We will remove our tel and others at any moment





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 10h

An accident is not just average, are not threatening in the same tower of Kiev airport





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 10h

Kiev, is what I wanted, I said in the first tw, kiev is responsible @ [B]ActualidadRT


[B]

[/B][/B]
View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 10h

Plane shot down, shot down, shot down no accident





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 10h

The Malaysia Airlines B777 aircraft disappeared from the radar, there was no communication of any anomaly, confirmed





View translation Retweeted by ✈ Carlos.
[Image: rt_sepa_mas_normal.png] In Spanish RT @ ActualidadRT · 11h

# [B]URGENT : The Boeing 777 with 280 passengers disappeared from radar when it was at 10,000 m in heighthttp://es.rt.com/yVE

View summary


[B]

[/B][/B]
View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 11h

Retake control tower in kiev





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 11h

I care! Kiev has what you want





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 11h

Eye! That may be a demolition Malaysia Airlines B777 in ukraine, 280 passengers





View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 11h

Authorities kiev, trying to make may seem an attack by pro-Russian





Retweeted by ✈ Carlos.
[Image: EfhMLN6G_normal.jpeg] Jason Rabinowitz @AirlineFlyer · 11h

Here's a route map of @[B]MAS #[B]MH17, which @[B]flightaware lost track of right at the Ukraine/Poland border pic.twitter.com/IGvQJnkU7B[/B][/B]
[B][/B]
[B][B] [Image: BswWlzrCUAAf08F.jpg:large]



View more photos and videos

[B][B][/B]
[B][B][/B][/B]
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View translation [Image: yEw0Nd9M_normal.png] ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca [B] · 11h ...
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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Magda Hassan Offline
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#28
18-07-2014, 03:08 AM
Here is his Twitter feed in Spanish
https://twitter.com/spainbuca

Also forgot to mention it starts at the bottom not top. Top is most recent.

IIRC I think I found Carlos during the Morales plane grounding when the US and their lackeys were hoping to find Snowden on board.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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Magda Hassan Offline
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#29
18-07-2014, 03:21 AM
Here is some generic video of a BUK-M2 SAM in action. Note how it has a bloody big contrail behind it? Note also that nothing like that is seen in the Ukrainian sky on videos taken by the locals where the plane crashed? At least from none of the videos I have seen.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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Peter Lemkin Offline
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#30
18-07-2014, 04:25 AM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2014, 04:45 AM by Peter Lemkin.)
Magda Hassan Wrote:Here is some generic video of a BUK-M2 SAM in action. Note how it has a bloody big contrail behind it? Note also that nothing like that is seen in the Ukrainian sky on videos taken by the locals where the plane crashed? At least from none of the videos I have seen.

Fair enough point - the contrail of the missile - if there was a missile - could likely have been seen; on the other hand, these missiles have a range of about 45km (depending on version) and can be fired from an isolated area. Much longer range SAMs, of course, exist - meaning it could have been fired from most anywhere. Likely the US, Ukraine and Russia have radar and other means of knowing and seeing missiles, as well as planes in their area. For the US and Russia, they basically have satellites and radar planes that cover the entire planet. I was just listening to the news and it is almost funny that 'experts' were stating categorically that it was X who must have done it; and another expert saying it was Y or Z. NO ONE wants to be held responsible for this and so, someone who is will lie...and it may be that one's allegiances will determine who one believes - rather than hard evidence as will surely be 'presented' by all sides. Another possibility is an air to air missile fired from a plane. Even there, I have heard experts say the separatists do and do not have any aircraft under their control. Certainly Ukraine, NATO, and Russia do. I guess it is even possible, although not likely, that more sophisticated weapons were involved. The wreckage would tell. Honest radar or satellite readings would, as well. To cover all possibilities, whoever it was, it could have been intentional - or it could have been a mistake. With all that said, the fog of war will be very thick, I believe.

I have NO idea if it is true, but a NEW factor has been injected now. RT is claiming they have evidence that just before it was brought down the MAL plane significantly deviated from its planned course - something that would be very odd and somewhat hard to believe, in fact.
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