Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live

[Peter Lemkin]

Oh please....if this isn't an invention for one of many reasons, they could have lost blood with the depressurization of the plane. Everyone saw them get on the plane fine and the pilots certainly weren't dead nor flying a hearse.

I wouldn't be quite so dismissive. This direct from yesterday's Strelkov briefing:

July 18, 2014 Information Regarding the Boeing from Igor Strelkov - regarding Boeing 777, Flight MH17:
Igor Strelkov: According to the information received from the people who collected the corpses, a large number of the corpses are "not fresh" these are people who died a few days ago. I cannot vouch for complete accuracy of this information of course, we will have to wait for conclusions from forensic specialists.
- "Somebody of course must have been piloting this plane, which, to boot, would be impossible to leave. The theory that the plane was full of dead people is, of course, breathtaking; however, it does not seem to make sense."
Igor Strelkov: First of all, not all the people in the plane were dead prior to the fall.
Second, a large quantity of medication, including blood serum and so forth, was found in the airplane, which is not characteristic of a regular airliner. It looks like there was some kind of special medical cargo on board.
Third, I do not insist on anything (for now). It's just that only moments ago I spoke with two individuals who personally gathered the corpses after the crash (both of them are from Shakhtersk and arrived at the scene less than half an hour after the catastrophe). I am writing exactly what they told me. They emphasized that a large number of the corpses were "completely bloodless" it's as if their blood clotted long before the catastrophe. They also remarked that there was an overwhelming putrid corpse stench, which was also noted by many locals a smell like that could not have formed in half an hour in any weather, let alone in the cloudy, temperate weather we had yesterday.
Fourth, while I am usually very suspicious of any "conspiracy theories" myself, but the 18 of our fighters that were poisoned with chemical weapons at their positions in Semyonovka, the executions of the militiamen's family members and all other "small joys of Ukie patriots" have convinced me that the Ukrainian government is capable of any villainy.
The pilots were, of course, perfectly alive the entire cabin (and the front part is well preserved) was literally bathed in their blood.

Source

I have followed Strelkov's briefings closely for months now and know him as a man to be reckoned with. His words are always calm and measured - not unlike Putin's actually.

As he makes clear, it is too early to be definitive about what it really means but it looks like there really were a significant number of corpses present on board that plane.

For an even more bizarre speculation about what it DOES mean, try this from Yoichi Shimatsu , who turned out to pretty accurate about Edward Snowden's real status and how he ended up in Moscow.

How would that explain that just moments before the plane was boarded, friends and relatives saw those on the plane alive - unless there was a plane 'switch'...which starts to get into very complex false-flag and the kinds of mysteries as in 911 of if plane switches, what happened to the passengers..... I'll wait, but find this very, very unlikely. Rapid depressurization at high altitude could explain the strange bloodless/fluidless bodies, and other changes to them. IF it is true that blood was only in the cabin, they may have seen the missile or after the strike have put on oxygen masks. The cabin is only slightly differently pressurized - the door not being built to be a pressure door - only a security door. Of course anything is possible - but......

[Danny Jarman]

Oh please....if this isn't an invention for one of many reasons, they could have lost blood with the depressurization of the plane. Everyone saw them get on the plane fine and the pilots certainly weren't dead nor flying a hearse.

I wouldn't be quite so dismissive. This direct from yesterday's Strelkov briefing:

July 18, 2014 Information Regarding the Boeing from Igor Strelkov - regarding Boeing 777, Flight MH17:
Igor Strelkov: According to the information received from the people who collected the corpses, a large number of the corpses are "not fresh" these are people who died a few days ago. I cannot vouch for complete accuracy of this information of course, we will have to wait for conclusions from forensic specialists.
- "Somebody of course must have been piloting this plane, which, to boot, would be impossible to leave. The theory that the plane was full of dead people is, of course, breathtaking; however, it does not seem to make sense."
Igor Strelkov: First of all, not all the people in the plane were dead prior to the fall.
Second, a large quantity of medication, including blood serum and so forth, was found in the airplane, which is not characteristic of a regular airliner. It looks like there was some kind of special medical cargo on board.
Third, I do not insist on anything (for now). It's just that only moments ago I spoke with two individuals who personally gathered the corpses after the crash (both of them are from Shakhtersk and arrived at the scene less than half an hour after the catastrophe). I am writing exactly what they told me. They emphasized that a large number of the corpses were "completely bloodless" it's as if their blood clotted long before the catastrophe. They also remarked that there was an overwhelming putrid corpse stench, which was also noted by many locals a smell like that could not have formed in half an hour in any weather, let alone in the cloudy, temperate weather we had yesterday.
Fourth, while I am usually very suspicious of any "conspiracy theories" myself, but the 18 of our fighters that were poisoned with chemical weapons at their positions in Semyonovka, the executions of the militiamen's family members and all other "small joys of Ukie patriots" have convinced me that the Ukrainian government is capable of any villainy.
The pilots were, of course, perfectly alive the entire cabin (and the front part is well preserved) was literally bathed in their blood.

Source

I have followed Strelkov's briefings closely for months now and know him as a man to be reckoned with. His words are always calm and measured - not unlike Putin's actually.

As he makes clear, it is too early to be definitive about what it really means but it looks like there really were a significant number of corpses present on board that plane.

For an even more bizarre speculation about what it DOES mean, try this from Yoichi Shimatsu , who turned out to pretty accurate about Edward Snowden's real status and how he ended up in Moscow.

How would that explain that just moments before the plane was boarded, friends and relatives saw those on the plane alive - unless there was a plane 'switch'...which starts to get into very complex false-flag and the kinds of mysteries as in 911 of if plane switches, what happened to the passengers..... I'll wait, but find this very, very unlikely. Rapid depressurization at high altitude could explain the strange bloodless/fluidless bodies, and other changes to them. IF it is true that blood was only in the cabin, they may have seen the missile or after the strike have put on oxygen masks. The cabin is only slightly differently pressurized - the door not being built to be a pressure door - only a security door. Of course anything is possible - but......

Uhm, Peter, Igor Strelkov is just relaying what was reported to him, he himself, said it does not seem to make sense. Lets see what comes of these body's.

[Peter Presland]

How would that explain that just moments before the plane was boarded, friends and relatives saw those on the plane alive -

Read it again Peter. No one is saying that the plane did not have its full complement of normal, live healthy passengers and crew; just that, in addition there were a significant number (dozens?) of corpses being transported in the cargo hold as well.

Strelkov, as is his wont, does not speculate about what that means. Shimatsu does.

As ever, I keep an open mind.

[Magda Hassan]

I don't give the video any credence at all since it was made and uploaded at least a day before the plane went down. Why would the Ukrainian 'government' use You Tube as the vehicle to show this video and not their own official websites (which look as if they haven't been maintained in months by the way) The video is convincing for the Murdoch sheep because they don't know they are being herded.

The black boxes have to be sent to Moscow. Ukraine is a member of the International Aviation Committee (MAK) which is responsible for accident investigations in most of ex-USSR member stages. But understand Lavrov is not going to accept them and wants an independent international investigation.

I will also mention since it hasn't made it to the MSM (surprise!)

14 July 2014
Ukraine's cabinet of ministers has a "completely new attitude" towards nuclear power and supports the idea of building new reactors using technology "of Western design", Energoatom president Yuri Nedashkovskiy has said.
Ukrainian prime minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk formed a new government after protests that began in 2013 and culminated in the dismissal of President Viktor Yanukovych in February. Energy minister Eduard Stavytsky was among the ministers who lost their posts the same month. Nedashkovsiy himself has been appointed the head of Energoatom five times.

http://world-nuclear-news.org/NP-Energoa...71401.html
ion
Obviously to limit their dependence on Russian gas but also shows the influence of western players (US Westinghouse? since France is pretty tight with Russia now) in locking in the Ukraine into dependency on the western infrastructure and corporatins.

[David Guyatt]

Oh please....if this isn't an invention for one of many reasons, they could have lost blood with the depressurization of the plane. Everyone saw them get on the plane fine and the pilots certainly weren't dead nor flying a hearse.

I wouldn't be quite so dismissive. This direct from yesterday's Strelkov briefing:

July 18, 2014 Information Regarding the Boeing from Igor Strelkov - regarding Boeing 777, Flight MH17:
Igor Strelkov: According to the information received from the people who collected the corpses, a large number of the corpses are "not fresh" these are people who died a few days ago. I cannot vouch for complete accuracy of this information of course, we will have to wait for conclusions from forensic specialists.
- "Somebody of course must have been piloting this plane, which, to boot, would be impossible to leave. The theory that the plane was full of dead people is, of course, breathtaking; however, it does not seem to make sense."
Igor Strelkov: First of all, not all the people in the plane were dead prior to the fall.
Second, a large quantity of medication, including blood serum and so forth, was found in the airplane, which is not characteristic of a regular airliner. It looks like there was some kind of special medical cargo on board.
Third, I do not insist on anything (for now). It's just that only moments ago I spoke with two individuals who personally gathered the corpses after the crash (both of them are from Shakhtersk and arrived at the scene less than half an hour after the catastrophe). I am writing exactly what they told me. They emphasized that a large number of the corpses were "completely bloodless" it's as if their blood clotted long before the catastrophe. They also remarked that there was an overwhelming putrid corpse stench, which was also noted by many locals a smell like that could not have formed in half an hour in any weather, let alone in the cloudy, temperate weather we had yesterday.
Fourth, while I am usually very suspicious of any "conspiracy theories" myself, but the 18 of our fighters that were poisoned with chemical weapons at their positions in Semyonovka, the executions of the militiamen's family members and all other "small joys of Ukie patriots" have convinced me that the Ukrainian government is capable of any villainy.
The pilots were, of course, perfectly alive the entire cabin (and the front part is well preserved) was literally bathed in their blood.

Source

I have followed Strelkov's briefings closely for months now and know him as a man to be reckoned with. His words are always calm and measured - not unlike Putin's actually.

As he makes clear, it is too early to be definitive about what it really means but it looks like there really were a significant number of corpses present on board that plane.

For an even more bizarre speculation about what it DOES mean, try this from Yoichi Shimatsu , who turned out to pretty accurate about Edward Snowden's real status and how he ended up in Moscow.

How would that explain that just moments before the plane was boarded, friends and relatives saw those on the plane alive - unless there was a plane 'switch'...which starts to get into very complex false-flag and the kinds of mysteries as in 911 of if plane switches, what happened to the passengers..... I'll wait, but find this very, very unlikely. Rapid depressurization at high altitude could explain the strange bloodless/fluidless bodies, and other changes to them. IF it is true that blood was only in the cabin, they may have seen the missile or after the strike have put on oxygen masks. The cabin is only slightly differently pressurized - the door not being built to be a pressure door - only a security door. Of course anything is possible - but......

Uhm, Peter, Igor Strelkov is just relaying what was reported to him, he himself, said it does not seem to make sense. Lets see what comes of these body's.

I know and worked with Yoichi Shimatsu years ago, and always regarded him as a competent and reliable journalist. But we'll wait and see where this line of argument goes...

[Drew Phipps]

Might I suggest we inquire about the cargo manifest and see if it mentions corpses or "medical supplies"?

[Peter Lemkin]

Might I suggest we inquire about the cargo manifest and see if it mentions corpses or "medical supplies"?

The cargo manifest was available via a hyperlink on the now voluminous thread here.
I didn't look at it, to be clear, but the transport of bodies long dead for burial or re-burial and/or medical corpses destined for medical schools or for other purposes is not that rare an event. I'll wait, as I said...but somethings just seem, on the face of it, too strange to be considered, without some serious evidence. There are now again some inspectors on the crash site [denied to move their vehicles with various equipment in them up to the crash], lets see what comes of this. :tampfeet:: ::peaceflag::

[Peter Lemkin]

Everyone involved has some damning evidence against them....for example this which came from a standard Russian news source....[but was denied by the Ukrainians!] I wouldn't trust any of the many sides on this...this need INDEPENDENT investigation. Now, as well, there are reports that the separatists are removing some evidence and some bodies - and reports they AGAIN sent the OSCE inspectors packing today - and told them there were some areas of crash they couldn't inspect! [yesterday they allowed 75 min; today a few hours]. Reports are just reports.....but there is too much finger pointing, spun information, and only a little hard evidence on any of this.......[tons of fog of war!]

NB [addendum] The OSCE chief inspector just gave a very very brief news conference. They are NOT there to investigate the crash at all - only to report back on the status of the crash site, security situation, size of crash site and to observe what is happening there. They will report back and then [maybe] a crash investigation team will be sent..... Also, what looks like first-responders [not troops nor irregular troops] are putting bodies in body bags and moving them...somewhere. This is not according to protocol, but perhaps <somewhat> understandable in the power/control vacuum - as the bodies are rotting and being eaten by animals, at this point, in the summer heat. This will NOT be a picture-perfect investigation, under the best of circumstances.

SEPARATISTS MAY HAVE CAPTURED MORE THAN 100 MISSILES



by JAMES DELINGPOLE 18 Jul 2014

The situation in Ukraine may be even more dangerous and unstable than we feared. According to this report from the Russian media, the separatists widely blamed for shooting down Malaysia Airlines MH17 are in control not just of one Buk missile launcher but a whole regiment of them.

The self-defense forces of Donetsk People's Republic seized control of a Ukrainian anti-air military installation, RIA Novosti reports.
"The forces of Donetsk People's Republic assumed control of A-1402 military base," the militia's representative said. According to him, it is an anti-aircraft missile forces facility equipped with Buk mobile surface-to-air missile systems.
During the last several days the militia took control of two internal security troops' installations in eastern Ukraine.

This report, from the end of last month, has had little play in the Western media, which has preferred to focus on reports from security sources that the rocket launchers (and tanks and APCs) used by the separatists were supplied by the Putin regime.
But if it is correct, then it would seem that the Russian separatists had by the end of June already captured more than enough missiles to wreak havoc. According to defence analystRichard North, we can assume that the anti-air installation comprised at least three batteries, each with four mobile launchers carrying four missiles, which means a minimum of 48 missiles even before allowing for replenishments that could bring the total stock to more than 100.

[Drew Phipps]

Here a link to the manifest:

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html

attached are the 4 pages. Some of them are hard to read.

Well, they aren't attaching for some reason.

I'm not expert at reading cargo manifests. But I see nothing marked "corpse", although I see live animals, birds, and something called "shipment of pot."

[Peter Lemkin]

Here a link to the manifest:

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html

attached are the 4 pages. Some of them are hard to read.

Well, they aren't attaching for some reason.

I'm not expert at reading cargo manifests. But I see nothing marked "corpse", although I see live animals, birds, and something called "shipment of pot."

I didn't see anything odd in the manifest - only that many animals, as well as all the humans, died. Regular mail as well as diplomatic mail was on board. The rest looks fairly harmless and not suspicious....some aviation parts; some scientific test equipment; some 'consolidated freight' which is not enumerated.