The Selectice Service card photo

[Tom Scully]

David, thank you for your very reasonable and detailed reply. I read it all and then reread it more slowly and particularly noted the points you emphasized in bolded text. I hope this ten page article I've linked to,written by Dick Russell possibly more than 30 years ago, is new to you. Russell's position on the reliability of key points of Nagell's claims seem closer to yours than to mine, but the information Russell shares does help explain why Nagell's claims have never become a "game changer".

As to the questions you began with, we can fully agree there were certain items found and taken by arresting officers from the trunk of Nagell's car and from other places "on him." The photocopy of the ID card was entered
into Nagell's lawyer's file at some unknown date, presumed to have been mailed to the lawyers office. The detail in the photocopy of the ID card includes what you describe, but your question about the ink marks/stamps does not
strike me as proof or disproof of anything, considering the poor quality of the photocopy. I hope you agree that the
ink marks on the Oswald ID don't eliminate the possibility that an DPD evidence photo of the Oswald card was the foundation of a fabrication of what is represented in the photocopy.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%...m%2020.pdf

The points you made in your reply help me to understand your research approach and your mindset, and I hope you better understand mine, after our exchange here. Possibly I am too cautious, or you are not cautious enough. Dick Russell was a young man when he first encountered Nagell. I wonder if he would have devoted as much time on Nagell and his claims if he began today, at Russell's current age, than the attention he has devoted to Nagell related research and writing?

If I knew today that I would be limited to reaching the age Gary Mack reached, vs. the age Harold Weisberg reached, how would that knowledge influence my research interests and priorities? I am open to criticism of the sort Mr. Doyle and Mr. Hargrove have posted in recent days. I want to be remembered for asking questions that
the likes of Bush and sons and Priscilla McMillan will pretend were never asked, but I want to influence them to wonder if the details in those questions will be a component of their epitaphs/legacies.

[Drew Phipps]

So neither the Dept. of Def. ID, nor the Selective Service card, appear in the Dallas inventory list? Did this stuff appear in the inventory after it was returned from the FBI to Dallas, or at some point subsequent to that?

I notice that the list you had there is dated 11/26?

[David Josephs]

David, thank you for your very reasonable and detailed reply. I read it all and then reread it more slowly and particularly noted the points you emphasized in bolded text. I hope this ten page article I've linked to,written by Dick Russell possibly more than 30 years ago, is new to you. Russell's position on the reliability of key points of Nagell's claims seem closer to yours than to mine, but the information Russell shares does help explain why Nagell's claims have never become a "game changer".

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%...m%2020.pdf

The points you made in your reply help me to understand your research approach and your mindset, and I hope you better understand mine, after our exchange here. Possibly I am too cautious, or you are not cautious enough. Dick Russell was a young man when he first encountered Nagell. I wonder if he would have devoted as much time on Nagell and his claims if he began today, at Russell's current age, than the attention he has devoted to Nagell related research and writing?

If I knew today that I would be limited to reaching the age Gary Mack reached, vs. the age Harold Weisberg reached, how would that knowledge influence my research interests and priorities? I am open to criticism of the sort Mr. Doyle and Mr. Hargrove have posted in recent days. I want to be remembered for asking questions that
the likes of Bush and sons and Priscilla McMillan will pretend were never asked, but I want to influence them to wonder if the details in those questions will be a component of their epitaphs/legacies.

I had not seen that article and will take time to read thru carefully. Thanks.


I proceed under the assumption that as a conspiracy, EVERYTHING related to the incrimination of Oswald is suspect. The hiding of the real murder as well as the ancillary operations that needed hiding leads me to conclude that what we are offered as Evidence pertains more to the cover-up of info and was therefore "created/improved/altered" for that reason.

That the DoD card may have not been in Nagell's possessions means it was either added to the pile later to connect the men, or that the evidence to prove the connection (of which so many of these connections were severed once the Commie Conspiracy became the Lone Nut) was made to disappear so it would be harder to prove the Nagell/Oswald connection...
or it was done for reasons we simply cannot comprehend at this point.


As I have been taking much deeper looks at key issues I come to find the evidence in total is simply inauthentic... Corroborating sources does not corroborate the conclusions, and in most cases refute the conclusions.

I've moved on in my studies to focus on what was said, offered, left behind as the Evidence of the crimes and to show how this Evidence is the essence of the Conspiracy, not a solution to the puzzle of the crimes.

I can't address the "why's or how's" of this Evidence since I truly do not think we can know the planning or thinking that went into some of it.

That this COPY of the DoD card exists and is associated with Nagell is much more important to me then where it was found and/or who said what about it being discovered as I already assume they are lying about it... but that doesn't change what they offered as an explanation or what the implication is regardless of its provenance. Everything about that card is strange... yet as you say, it's not a game changer.

----------------------
Moving to what Dick writes about what Nagell says about Mexico... The Mexican Tourist Visa for example... Sept 17th an application is filled out and a visa is granted for a 15 day stay in Mexico.
Except the application which is reproduced 1) does not show the entire application at once and 2) is not for an FM-8 but an FM-5

1) on one image of the application in CE2481 we get the top without the signature, in the other the bottom without the NO and SERIE.

2) the man in the transcripts is worried about getting out of Mexico before his visa expires - which he thinks was 15 days from PURCHASE date or October 2nd - again, an indication to me that these items and the people using them are not necessarily the same or even connected. Finally, Oswald does not have a birth certificate but only a confirmation of birth recorded yet he seems able to use this in a number of locations and it is accepted...

It's a minor detail for sure Tom, but a detail none the less and one that causes some concerns over the authenticity of such a document...

The SSS card is a fake, the DoD possibly... are we not going to consider that his visa and the other Mexico city evidence is also created with the sole purpose to incriminate until it can be authenticated?
I tried, and found that the evidence WAS created and WAS funneled thru a singular FBI Gobernacion Asset who did add his own "info" to the evidence for "clarity"...

I see no reason why stating that the STORY is that the El Paso Police and FBI did find a notebook and did find a page with this info on it...
the STORY in Evidence is that the DoD card came from Nagell at some point or was attributed to him...

Whether Nagell's entire story is authentic seems unknowable given the lack of corroboration... although the old adage of "Never believe anything until it is officially denied" goes right along with the FBI stating they never got the letter from him to Hoover...

Hopefully not too long winded Tom... I do know I feel better with you here being able to look over my shoulder and keep speculation from going to far afield
DJ

[David Josephs]

So neither the Dept. of Def. ID, nor the Selective Service card, appear in the Dallas inventory list? Did this stuff appear in the inventory after it was returned from the FBI to Dallas, or at some point subsequent to that?

I notice that the list you had there is dated 11/26?

11/26 was when the FBI came back after returning the items on the 24th to "officially" take all the evidence from the DPD - even though they had hidden the fact they had taken ALL the evidence with them on 11/22.

I believe these were items taken on 11/22 but not returned by the FBI at all and items the FBI added to Oswald's inventory which made it's way to the WCR.

I have not looked thru every one of the DPD/FBI numbered 455 item inventory sheets, but since we have images of these items they were entered into evidence at some point.

When John Armstroing was at the Archive in the 90's he says they let him touch and turn over the evidence when he checked for the DPD initials... these among many items did not have these initials which suggests they were added after the items had been at the FBI... You can only look of photos of these items now, and only the fronts....

DJ

[Tom Scully]

So neither the Dept. of Def. ID, nor the Selective Service card, appear in the Dallas inventory list? Did this stuff appear in the inventory after it was returned from the FBI to Dallas, or at some point subsequent to that?

I notice that the list you had there is dated 11/26?

Drew, I've studied the chain of custody of Hidell ID allegedly "found on Oswald," at length. For a while, I could find no official reporting of it in the record..... who recovered it, when and where, until Bentley was asked in the course of the WC investigation, in April, 1964, I think it was. I'll come back and fill in the citations.

Update: It was actually not until June 11, 1964, and identified from photos of the evidence, and SA Bookout, who
was not an independent and uninterested party, as far as that particular evidence, "was pulling Bentley's strings".

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/j...e_2011.pdf .pdf page 11 :

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/on-thi...ent-436613
Tom Scully April 21, 2014 at 11:15 pm
No member of Dallas DPD filed a timely report describing recovery of a wallet from suspect Oswald's person. Various DPD officers made conflicting statments about recovery of a wallet from Oswald's person. DPD Paul Bentley and an Hidell ID recovered in a wallet alongside Oswald ID from Oswald's person was not recorded until Hill's tetsimony on April 8,1964.
Bentley himself had not mentioned Hidell ID in his TV interview, nor in any filed report. He was not on the record until June 11,1964.:
https://www.google.com/#q=%22june+11%2C+...ley+hidell

FBI Agent Clements filed a report describing Hidell ID he did not link the wallet to a DPD officer.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/clements.htm
Mr. CLEMENTS. "…he was being taken out for a lineup. While he was gone I examined the contents of his wallet which was there on the desk, and identified to me as Oswald's wallet. "
Images of this 23 Nov. FBI report:


In contrast, unimportant billfolds found at the Paine home by DPD were properly numbered and placed on a timely filed evidence list.: CE2003, #114 (brown) and #382 (red). "The" wallet went out of Dallas with with no evidence number in the dead of night (27 Nov.) : (Links to supporting docs, below) :

Some believe the 27 Nov. wallet was secretly sent to the FBI lab in DC days earlier, and then back to Dallas.

Since there is no timely chain of custody related to discovery anywhere of
an Oswald wallet containing dual ID, this Tippit wallet seems a distraction.

FBI 62-109060 JFK HQ File, Section 14 pg 90
Found in: FBI JFK Assassination File (62-109060)
(fourteen separate items ASAC Kyle G Clark has telephonically advised that the Police Department failed to photograph the contents of the wallet before turning it over to our Dallas Office and requested....

How does a WC apologist explain the contradictions of photos taken by the Dallas police of the arrest wallet in November, 1963, aft er the FBI claimed it did not happen?
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/m...6863/m1/1/ = wallet - image
Dallas (Tex.). Police Dept.. [Items from Wallet, Photograph #4], Photograph, November 1963; ...
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth346763/ = items claimed to have been found in wallet - image

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...lPageId=82

The attached list is a correct and actual count of the items received from the Dallas office .... this list differs from
and supersedes the inventory list submitted by the Dallas office. The items listed have been checked against
the film submitted by Dallas and against the items themselves since the film was not complete.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...lPageId=85
...Item #114 Brown billfold with Marine corps group photo.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...PageId=100
...Item #382 Red billfold; one scrap of white paper ....

https://www.google.com/#q=ce2003+billfold
Warren Commission, Volume XIV: CE 2003 - Dallas Police ...
www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/.../WH24_CE_2003.pd...


FBI neither photographed arrest wallet nor listed it in the "revised true and accurate inventory."

Can anyone post the CE # of the arrest wallet?

In the meantime, Bentley's fellow detectives told contradictory accounts of finding Oswald's wallet and what was found to be in it, as you probably know. There has been recent talk about the local TV station video indicating a wallet handled at the Tippit murder scene and Westbrook taking it on over to the Texas Theater and its disappearance after that, along with the descriptions related to that "stuff" by a former FBI agent at the Tippit murder scene, supported by a retired DPD officer.

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_...pter6.html
............
One aspect of the Tippit case has fascinated me since it was revealed by FBI agent Jim Hosty in 1996. Hosty revealed that FBI agent Robert Barrett said that a wallet containing identification for Oswald and his purported alias Alek James Hidell was left at the scene of Tippit's shooting and found by police captain W. R. Westbrook near a puddle of blood.

The two sets of identification for Oswald and Hidell being found in one wallet was particularly damaging to Oswald, as Oswald denied during the afternoon of November 22 that he was the owner of the rifle......

Then, Tim Nickerson pointed this "first" out to me, and I dug deeper and found more after that. The chain of custody is a mess.......

Frtiz's notes, (no authoritive determination of legitimacy, AFAIK, described as from an anonymous source after
Fritz's death.)

"B.O." may be SA Bookout.....

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/clements.htm
The testimony of Manning C. Clements was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964,
..............
Mr. STERN. I understand that you participated in an interrogation of Oswald. Would you tell me about that?
Mr. CLEMENTS. Sometime during the evening I did go to the homicide bureau office for some purpose I don't immediately recall, and there I saw one of our other agents, James Bookhout, and I asked him if anyone had, to his knowledge, taken a detailed physical description and detailed background information from Oswald. He told me that such description and background data had not been obtained, and suggested that I do it. I learned from Bookhout, as I recall, that Oswald was, at the time, in a small office, the door of which was closed.
I sought out Captain Fritz, in charge of the-homicide bureau, or one of high ranking officers and asked if there was any objection to my interviewing Oswald in the regard mentioned.
I was told there was no objection. I entered this room and found that Oswald was in the room, and being guarded by two officers who I presumed to be members of the Dallas Police Department, but whom I did not personally know.
Mr. STERN. They were not interrogating him?
Mr. CLEMENTS. No; they were apparently just sitting on guard duty.
Mr. STERN. Then what happened?
Mr. CLEMENTS. I introduced myself to the officers whose names I do not believe that I got, and also introduced myself to Oswald Exhibited my credentials and told him that I would like to obtain from him some physical description, background, biographical data. He was agreeable, and I began my interview with him.
Mr. STERN. Can you approximate the time of day that this occurred--roughly?
Mr. CLEMENTS. I would say the interview began roughly at 10 p.m.
Mr. STERN. How long did it last? And was it interrupted?
Mr. CLEMENTS. I estimate the overall interview was approximately 30 or 35 minutes. I was interrupted twice, perhaps, during the interview, being informed that he was being taken out for a lineup. While he was gone I examined the contents of his wallet which was there on the desk, and identified to me as Oswald's wallet. When he returned I continued the interview.
Mr. STERN. Approximately how long was he gone?
Mr. CLEMENTS. I would estimate 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. STERN. So, that the total amount of time that you spent with him was something like 20 minutes?
Mr. CLEMENTS. That would be a rough estimate.
Mr. STERN. Did you see him again after that interview?
Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes; I saw him next at a time which I estimate was 11:30 p.m., the 22d. It was at a time when he was being taken to the basement of the city hall to a press conference. I saw him as he was being taken to the third floor from the offices of the homicide bureau, and I went to the basement myself arriving there before he did, and I saw him as he was being brought into the room where the press conference was held, and during the course of the press conference.
Mr. STERN. Did you see him again at any time after that press conference?
Mr. CLEMENTS. No........

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bookhout.htm
The testimony of James W. Bookhout was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964,

.....Mr. STERN - How long had the interview gone on before you were present?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Very shortly. I would give a rough estimate of not more than 5 to 10 minutes at the most.
Mr. STERN - How long did that first interview last?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - A little under an hour.
Mr. STERN - Was it interrupted at any point, if you remember?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Well, what I am thinking, we have got several interviews here. I know from time to time I can't recall whether it was this interview, or subsequent interviews Captain Fritz would have to leave the office for a second or two. By "office," I mean the immediate office that the interview was being conducted in, but still within the homicide and robbery office.
Mr. STERN - Did the interviewing continue when he was out of the room, or did you wait for his return?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - No; it would continue.
Mr. STERN - By whom was the interview conducted?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Primarily it was conducted by Captain Fritz and then before he would leave from one point to another he would ask if there was anything we wanted to ask him particularly on that point.
Mr. STERN - By "we," you mean Agent Hosty and yourself?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Right.
Mr. STERN - What was Oswald's demeanor in the course of this interview? Did he seem in control of himself, excited, or calm? Can you describe his conduct?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - He was very arrogant and argumentative. That is about the extent of the comment on that.
Mr. STERN - Is this as to you and Hosty, or also Captain Fritz? Did he differentiate in his conduct between Captain Fritz and the two of you?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Now--no; that would apply to everyone present.
Mr. STERN - Did he answer all questions put to him or did he refuse to answer the questions?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - No; there would be certain questions that he refused to comment about.
Mr. STERN - When this happened was the question pressed, or another question asked?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Anyone asking the another question would be asked.
Mr. STERN - What sort of question would he refuse to answer? Was there any pattern to his refusing?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Well, now, I am not certain whether this would apply then to this particular interview, the first interview or not, in answering this, but I recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about the Selective Service card which he had in the name of Hidell, and he admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit that he wrote the signature of Hidell on the card, and at that point stated that he refused to discuss the matter further. I think generally you might say anytime that you asked a question that would be pertinent to the investigation, that would be the type of question he would refuse to discuss. .......

I find no description of post Texas Theater arrest, wallet recovery with contents descriptions in the written reports of any of the officers accompanying LHO in the car leaving the Theater, or by any other DPD officer, except Fritz, who was reporting second hand accounts in a December report to Curry that was forwarded to Waggoner Carr.
[URL="https://books.google.com/books?id=YXEhAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT84&dq=1:00+am+hosty+signed+for+billfold&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAGoVChMIrMehuIjexgIVy24-Ch3OqA_K#v=onepage&q=1%3A00%20am%20hosty%20signed%20for%20billfold&f=false"]
[/URL]Assignment: Oswald By James P. Hosty, Thomas Hosty




[URL="http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm"]
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm[/URL]
45. Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by J. W. Fritz. Report to Chief Curry listing pieces of evidence, (Original), 12/23/63. 00001512 5 pages 05 (Use of the descriptive nouns, "purse" and "billfold" helped to obscure this.)

page 3 of 5 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1512-003.gif :

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/on-thi...ime-scene/
Who found Oswald's wallet?
Bill Simpich
............
For the FBI man, Barrett said the wallet made the case against Oswald a "slam dunk."
Yet the Dallas authorities never wrote a report about any wallet found at the Tippit murder scene. Perhaps that was oversight. Perhaps not.
FBI Man: Dallas cop lied
After 50 years, an FBI agent on the scene believes that the Dallas officer who brought Oswald to the police station is lying about finding the wallet in Oswald's possession.
Barrett attacked Bentley's claim that he found Oswald's wallet for the first time in a WFAA news story last November. "They said they took the wallet out of his pocket in the car? That's so much hogwash. That wallet was in (Captain) Westbrook's hand."
Why did Barrett wait 50 years to accuse Bentley of lying and obstruction of justice?
It was not a fight he cared to pick. Bentley had been Dallas's chief polygraph examiner during 1963. It would have been professionally hazardous for Barrett to challenge Bentley before his death in 2008.
So what does the story of the wallet tell us?
It was not public knowledge that Oswald's wallet was found at the Tippit murder scene until 1996. FBI agent Jim Hosty, who had responsibility for watching Oswald, wrote that a wallet containing identification for both Oswald and "Alek Hidell" was found near a pool of blood. Again, no witness ever saw the wallet on the ground. A second witness, patrolman Leonard Jez, told a conference in 1999 that the wallet was identified at the murder scene as belonging to Oswald.
Rookstool told WFAA that the testimony of Barrett and Croy, Tippit's billfold, and the WFAA film prove that Oswald's wallet was at the scene of the policeman's murder.
Rookstool's finding is contested by researcher Dale Myers. On his website, Myers argues that the wallet seen on the videotape is thinner and has a straight flap rather than the rounded flap of the arrest wallet. Whether Myers's contention is correct or not, Myers has also spent years publicizing Barrett's story that the wallet at the murder scene contained identification for both Lee Harvey Oswald and Alek Hidell.
The best evidence indicates that an unknown person brought Lee Harvey Oswald's wallet to the scene of Tippit's murder.......

...............

[URL="http://tomscully.com"]http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/on-this-date/oswalds-wallet-planted-at-the-tippit-crime-scene/#comment-436613
Tom Scully[/URL] May 8, 2014 at 10:31 pm
Again….Jean, as I have asked all who take your position, who of the DPD, FBI, or SS, filed a timely incident report stating what employee of any of those three law enforcement organizations, or any other similiar org., recovered any Hidell ID from a wallet found on Oswald's person. No first person, written report of a discoverer of said ID was filed. Fritz testified he kept no interrogation notes, and the testimony of Harry D Holmes reinforced this. Holmes testified he and Fritz knew better than to keep notes,mindful they would be surrendered to trial defense in discovery. The FBI agent's report you linked to describes the FBI SA simply seeing a wallet on Fritz's desk, prompted by an unidentified DPD officer as to the wallet's contents. Jean, Oswald was killed in DPD custody in their HQ. Are you at all curious as to why the alleged discoverer/recoverer of Hidell ID from a wallet in Oswald's possession on 22 November is not himself on record on this matter until June, 1964? Are you using the same standard of skepticism you might use if your son was accused by unidentified police of possessing an incriminating item not decribed in a timely, or even a late written report filed by the discoverer or anyone in his company at the time of said discovery, and then your son was murdered while in the custody of this LEO in their HQ, less than 48 hours later?
What on earth, given these actual facts, influences you to post in such enthusiastic acceptance of disturbingly compromised LEO procedure and transparency?
Reply

Jean Davison

May 10, 2014 at 12:26 am
Tom,
The FBI agent's report doesn't simply describe the wallet. It says that when Oswald was questioned about the Hidell card he "declined to explain his possession" of it:
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archi...PageId=638
The next pages in that link list the contents of the wallet about a dozen different cards, plus photos. Did Bentley or anyone else go through all this carefully on 11/22 and write it up? Evidently not. But Kelley, Bookhout, and Fritz all reported that Oswald was asked about the Hidell card the following day. E.g., last paragraph here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archi...PageId=651
How do you explain the frame-up crew's actions, planting a card that Oswald could've vehemently denied was his (but didn't, according to the record)?
Do you think that every scrap of evidence against Oswald, every action he took that made him look guilty, can be explained some other way (other than the obvious conclusion that he's guilty)? I'd like to hear that story sometime, showing how the frame-up crew might have done it step by step. Should be a doozy.
You and many others see Oswald as a victim. I see him as the guy who blew Kennedy's brains out....

(It took time (about a year, off and on....) and effort to track all of this down, and it seems it was intended by DPD and FBI, and probably Army Intel, CIA, ONI for it to be an obscure "evidence" chain.)

[Tom Scully]

[URL="http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box7.htm"]
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box7.htm[/URL]

No More Silence: An Oral History of the Assassination of

Larry A. Sneed copyright 1998
Paul Bentley:
.....Shortly after we left the theater I took Oswald's wallet out of his left rear pocket which contained two or three
There were definitely two names, and maybe a third. When asked his real identity, his response was, "You find out the best you can!" We gave the dispatcher the names and were advised that this was a suspect in the assassination of President Kennedy and for us to bring him directly to Captain Will Fritz's office. That was the first that we knew that he was a suspect in the assassination. Oswald kept his head bowed and did not say anything on the way back. When we were told that he was a suspect in the assassination of the President, I don't remember if I asked him or if it was Jerry Hill if he actually had shot the if he actually had shot the President, and he just shook his head "no" and didn't say anymore......

https://texas2011sixthfloor.pbworks.com/...201994.pdf
Paul Bentley February 16, 1994
By Wes Wise with Bob Porter
Researchers Note: Mr. Bentley recorded a follow-up
videotaped interview
on 1/22/2008. In addition, he has participated in
videotaped public programs
at The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza on 4/18/2007, 9/14/2007,
and 5/16/2008.
Researchers Note: Mr. Bentley passed away on 7/21/2008
..... Wes: Was that crowd belligerent in any way towa
rd Oswald?
Paul: Not there, as we proceeded down Zangs Str
eet and got to I think it was Zangs
and Bishop...if I'm not mistaken, Zangs and Claridon
we heard several people rolling their windows
down and saying, "Kill that S.O.B. Kill that S.O.B
." And at this particular time, as we were going i
n,
we were not aware that we had arrested the person w
ho had assassinated President Kennedy and
wounded Governor Connally. We knew that we had arre
sted the person that had shot officer Tippit, but
we radioed the dispatcher...advised the dispatcher th
at we had a suspect in the shooting of Officer
Tippet. The dispatcher asked us for the name of the
suspect, and I had taken his wallet out of his lef
t
rear pocket and had taken several cards out of his
wallet and it contained several different names.
Hidell, Oswald, and I think a couple other alias an
d I gave this all to the dispatcher.
Wes: Let's stop right there for a second.
Bob: Let's detail that because in some of the books they claim these things were
planted on him and so forth.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm - Box 2 Folder 7
Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by P. L. Bentley. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000636 2 pages 02 07 004 0636-001.gif and:

Wes: (taking photograph from Paul and putting it
down) OK, let's put this down for
the time being. That's a good idea, Bob. Go ahead
and explain. Now, how many identifications did
you see? Do you recall offhand?
Paul: I think I saw three, and if I'm not mista
ken it was Hidell...Alex Hidell, Oswald,
and one other...I don't recall what it was off hand r
ight now. I have all that all written down, but I'm
not sure what it was. I took out of his wallet quit
e a bit of "Freedom for Cuba" cards, various differ
ent
things that I took out of his wallet and went looki
ng for other alias that we might identify him with.
And when I advised...I think it was Sergeant Hill who
was talking to the dispatcher and we gave him
the names that we had gotten out of his wallet. The
dispatcher advised us then that we were to bring
this suspect directly to Captain Fritz's office tha
t he was a prime suspect in the assassination of
President Kennedy and the wounding of Governor Conn
ally.
Wes: That's the first you knew of it?
Paul: (0:19:54) That's the first, and I turned to
him and I said, "Did you shoot President
Kennedy?" And he said, "You find out for yourself."

.......

......Wes: Those were his exact words? Paul: "You find out for yourself," and then lat
er on, as we were going on, Walker
asked him a question, and he said, "I didn't shoot
anybody."
Wes: He said that to whom?
Paul: He said that to Walker...no, the other offi
cer. I'm sorry, I mean Lyons, K.K.
Lyons was sitting on his right, and I was on his le
ft, and he said, "I didn't shoot anybody."
Wes: Is there any way and Bob, help me with thi
s, if you remember anything specific
from one of the books, is there any way that any on
e could have slipped any identification into his
wallet before between the time you had it and the t
ime you brought it to the police bureau?
Paul: His wallet was never out of his pocket un
til I took it out of his pocket. I turned
his wallet over to Lieutenant Baker when we brought
him to Captain Fritz. His wallet was never out of
my sight or my possession until I turned it over to
Lieutenant Baker.
Wes: So there's no way any one could have tampe
red with the wallet?
Paul: No way. Nobody did tamper with his walle
t when I had it in my possession, and
then it was turned over to Lieutenant Baker and of
course, I'm sure nobody did tamper with it when it
was turned over to Lieutenant Baker.
Bob: Well, obviously, if you saw those identifi
cations immediately that others said
were...
Paul: Could you turn that off for just a second
?
<break in tape>
Bob: OK, now you've got some documents that you
are going to show.
Wes: Yeah, we went off camera to give you time to
get these photographs. These are
documents?
Paul: These are photographs or copies of the it
ems that were taken out of Lee Harvey
Oswald's wallet. (holding up small photograph).......

Wes: OK. So, there we are talking Lee H. Oswald
?
Paul: Here we have a Selective Service notice of
classification, and it has Lee Harvey
Oswald's picture on it...but it has the name of Alex
James Hidell, along with the Certificate of Service
stating, "This is to certify Alex James Hidell, Uni
ted States Marine Core," but it has Lee Harvey
Oswald's picture at the bottom. That's one of the a
liases he was using.
Wes: But he's listed here...Can you read the Alex
James Hidell?
Bob: Yeah.
Paul: Alex James Hidell.
Wes: O.K. go ahead.
Paul: (holding up copy of card) This is just a c
opy, again, of a notice of classification
of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Wes: (taking copy) Selective Service System class
ification card. .....

Buried in Dallas D.A. Wade's office safe for how many years???

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box12.htm
Box 12, Folder 15
1. Photograph, by an unknown author. Split image photograph of Certification of Service U. S. M. C. Alek James Hidell/Selective Service Certificate to Alek James Hidell, negative number 91-001/155 and 91-001/338, (Photographic Image: Size 3" X 5"), date unknown. 00004104 4 pages 12 15 001 4104-001.gif 4104-002.gif 4104-003.gif 4104-004.gif

[Drew Phipps]

Ok, so we know that Bentley's story is a lie. We know that because Fritz has consistently maintained that Oswald was already sitting in his interrogation room, when Fritz returned from the TSBD with his new information naming Oswald as a "missing employee." When Fritz mentioned Oswald's name to someone, (IIRC it was to send someone to Oswald's address) that officer said, "There he sits!" That was the first time that anyone at DPD headquarters legitimately connected Oswald to JFK.

So the story about the dispatcher naming Oswald already being a suspect in JFK, before Oswald arrives at DPD, must simply be a lie.

Of course, this was only about 15 minutes before Hoover himself wrote the memo about Oswald being the shooter and in custody.

We also know that nobody actually interviews Oswald about the fake names until mid morning 11/23 (since the FBI mentions questioning him about it on that day, not the 22nd)...which apparently is hours after the FBI has diligently located the A.J. Hidell money order from Klein's for c2766.

Is the intervening period of time between the discovery of the Klein's money order, and the renewed questioning by the FBI in the morning, enough time for someone to crop the photo from the (probably fake) DoD ID, and forge a Selective Service card with the alias name, and deliver it to DPD?

[Tom Scully]

Clements' report is dated 22 November and dictated on the 23rd. But he does not name who of the DPD informed
him that it was LHO's wallet. He claims he took a peek inside and then asked his questions.:



What is consistent is that no one of the DPD wants to be associated with Hidell ID in the billfold, purse, wallet,
at least in any paper record, until sometime in mid-December, but the FBI, in their own internal reporting, went all in beginning with Clements' report dated the 22nd and the 1:00 am, 27 November handoff to Hosty of 16 cards and a billfold. It still does not say Hidell, and neither does this.:


and the Hedel reference on Fritz's notes page, which is an unauthenticated document and he testified he did not
put notes on paper until sometime after the interviews, and this was supported by Harry Holmes.

So, the image below is the first DPD mention in the record that I have been able to locate, and of course, the FBI could conceal its own report and put it all on the DPD if a Hidell fabrication was ever discovered. So it is easy to understand why there is a demonstrable reluctance for DPD to timely mention a Hidell SS ID card recovered from LHO's billfold, purse, wallet by DPD office so and so, and it seems, they did not mention it concisely in 1963.
But....in 1994, Bentley is carrying around photos of the ID cards.



Larry Hancock :

Posted 10 September 2004 - 03:16 PM

Greg, not that it solves anything, but a couple of observations...

First, in Col. Jones interview he makes it clear that the 112th records do not
list Hidel as an actual alias for Oswald. There is discussion that the files
contain information that Lee Oswald was in possession of an FPCC membership
card signed by A.J. Hidell and of a statement made by Oswald to the FBI that
Hidel had recruited Oswald in August asking him to distruibute literature.

...which I suppose explains why Oswald was not immediately felt to
be using an alias in New Orleans, as I recall Hosty goes into length on this
point in his book developing why it took the New Orelans agents some two
months or so to come to the conclusion that there was no real AJ Hidell and that it the FPCC in N.O. was a one man game.

Jones goes on to say that on Nov. 22 he received information from Dallas that an individual had been arrested carrying identification with both the names A.J. Hidell (Selective Service Card) and Oswald. Jones seemed proud of the fact that a quick check of their files allowed him to reply to Dallas that the individual was Lee Oswald and that the name Hidell had been used before in association with Oswald. It's pretty apparent that he feels he figured out Hidell was Oswald - which does make him considerably faster than the FBI in New Orleans. It is sort of humorus that in his testimony, Jones still qualifies though ans says that "I am of the opinion that A.J. Hidell and Lee Harvey Oswald are one and the same"....because he is being questioned on whether it was at all possible there was a real A.J. Hidell.

-- Larry

Bill Kelly, seven years later:

Col. Robert Jones on the Oswald Dossier

HISTORY MATTERS

http://www.history-m...jones_0002a.htm

EXECUTIVE SESSION
THURSDAY, APRIL 20, 1978 US House of Representatives
Subcommitee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy of theSelect Committee on Assassinations. Washington D.C. Room 1310, Longworth House Office Building.
Counsel for HSCA: B. Genzmen, H. Goldsmith;
Representatives Dodd, Fithian and Sawyer.

Highlights of the HSCA Executive Session Testimony of COL. ROBERT JONES:

MR. JONES: Upon my assignment to 112, I was appointed the operations officer for the entire group. The 112 MI group had seven regions under its operational control which encompassed a five-state area: Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, New Mexico and Oklahoma.

I was directly responsible for all counterintelligence, operations background investigations, domestic intelligence and any special operations in this area.

I directed the operations for seven regions and reported, through my group commander, to the Security Division of Fourth Army, Deputy Chief of Staff Intelligence.

We had a domestic intelligence function there that we collected information from various local, state and county law enforcement agencies or intelligence divisions. We maintained filings and built an index card file on individuals who may have been going into Mexicoand coming back.

HSCA COUNSEL: When did the name Lee Harvey Oswald first come to your attention?

MR. JONES: I would estimate the middle of 1963. I cannot be specific, though. Mr. Chairman, because I spent too many years, but I would believe it was the middle of 1963 when he was arrested in New Orleans, and I had liaison with the New Orleans police and through our regional office in New Orleans, they provided me with his arrest, his activities and we carded him under both the name of A. J. Hidell and Lee Harvey Oswald.

HSCA: Based on this information, what actions did you take?

MR. JONES: Well, he was of interest to us because of theanti-U.S. government position he was taking, his pro-Cuban activities as far as passing out literature and making speeches on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee,and I think we also had an interest in local agencies to get any information we could develop, to get information on a place of residence.

Additionally, we requested a file, or availability of afile, from the Central Records facility. This file was forwarded to us an wecompleted our dossier from information from the Central Records facility and from the local agency check and from the activities of his while he was in New Orleans.

HSCA: Are you saying that you maintained a file on LeeHarvey Oswald?

MR. JONES: Yes. I did have a file on Lee Harvey Oswald.

HSCA: Did this file contain a personality profile on Oswald?

MR. JONES: The personality profile, as I call it, is as much information as we have to develop on an individual, or without doing a comprehensive background investigation, and from this Central Records facilityfile, local agency check and from his activities, we considered that thepersonality profile.

HSCA: Were you personally responsible for the maintenance ofthe file, or were you personally involved in collecting any of this information?

MR. JONES: My position, as Chief of Operations, or Operations Officer for the Group, all reports would come over my desk and Iwould read them and indicate disposition of the documents.

Under my supervision, we had a domestic intelligence officer who would continue to screen the files and prepare the dossiers and the necessary cards and file them in his section, which was called domestic intelligence, or DI.

HSCA: Did the file on Oswald ever contain a summary report?

MR. JONES: The file only contained information that I just have given you. His activities in New Orleans.

HSCA: Let me rephrase the question, Colonel Jones. Did you,at any time, ever write a summary report or and "after action" report on LeeHarvey Oswald?

MR. JONES: Yes. I do not refer to a summary report. After the assassination of President Kennedy, I did write an after action report which covered all of the report, the actions that I took, the people that I notified, the time and so forth, and it was prepared as an after action report, and maintained in the Lee Harvey Oswald file.

HSCA: Based upon the information that you gathered on LeeHarvey Oswald, what conclusions did you reach as to this individual?

MR. JONES: As to the individual's character, as to his trustworthiness? I considered the man as a possible security risk or as a person that we should have an interest in from the review of his dossier. The fact that he had defected, gone to Russia,had traveled in Russia, and according to the file, had married a Russian national, and was permitted to return to the United States.That was sufficient enough for him to be of interest to any intelligence operating agency.

HSCA: Would you characterize Oswald as a possible counter-intelligence threat?

MR. JONES: I considered him to be a counter-intelligence threat at any time that he would have been in the area that I was responsible for operations.

HSCA: On the basis of your experience and knowledge of theLee Harvey Oswald file, would you say that the other American intelligenceagencies would have had an interest in Oswald and would have characterized himas a possible security or counter-intelligence threat?

MR. JONES: I would not speak for any intelligence agency as a factual report to this committee, but if I were assigned an operation in any intelligence agency, I would think that a man who had traveled to Russia would certainly be debriefed and be a potential source of information and based upon an investigation that we might conduct on the findings of this and the people considered reliable or targets in areas that we had an interest, he would be a potential source.

HSCA: Based on your expertise and intelligence experience, could you tell us which agency would have debriefed Oswald upon his return from the Soviet Union, if, in fact, that were ever done?

MR. JONES: From my experience, the CIA wouldhave debriefed him at one time and, upon return to the United States, the internal security division ofthe FBI would probably debrief him.

HSCA: To your knowledge, did the CIA ever debrief Lee Harvey Oswald?

MR. JONES: I have no personal knowledge of it.

HSCA: To your knowledge, did Military Intelligence ever debrief Lee Harvey Oswald?

MR. JONES: The Military Intelligence of my group did not debrief him.

HSCA: Based upon the information which you gathered on Oswald and also based on your experience, would you say that Lee Oswald's file was the type of file which should have been destroyed at some point in time.

MR. JONES: The Oswald file, since it pertained to theassassination of the President of the United States, in my opinion, should have been retained for reference or for historical purposes.

HSCA: If you were still Operations Officer in charge of theOswald file at a time when destruction of these types of files was being considered, under what circumstances would the file have been destroyed?

MR. JONES: I think I would have made a strong case to retain the file with my superiors and then if I were directed to destroy the file, I would have asked them to direct me to do so in writing so that it would be amatter of record.

HSCA: Colonel Jones, I next would like to ask you about the liaison operations between military intelligence and the Secret Service.

MR. JONES: At any time that the President, or Vice President, or anyone at the Secret Service had responsible for physical protection, would be scheduled to arrive in the area, they would contact our Group Headquarters or our Regional Headquarters and we would augment their force, if necessary, to provide some type of physical coverage, that is, a manon the street, or an observation of people, vehicles, communications, or any other information or support that we could provide.

But in every case, to my knowledge, our people were under the control and supervision of the Secret Service. We never assume responsibility for the President's protection.

HSCA: Would you characterize these operations as supplementing the manpower of the Secret Service

MR. JONES: Yes, I would.

HSCA: With specific reference to President Kennedy's trip toTexas, would you relate to the committee your connection with liaison operations with the Secret Service?

MR. JONES: We provided a small force I do not recall how many, but I would estimate between eight and twelve during the President's visit to San Antonio, Texas; and then the following day, on his visit to Dallas, the regions also provided additional people to assist, that is additional people from Region 2.

HSCA: Did these people which you provided include sources who were in contact with various local law enforcement agencies?

MR. JONES: The people who were in contact with either the intelligence division or the State Police or the Police Department or the FBI or Secret Service, were reporting either directly to me or to the Regional Operations officers.

The information would be provided to the Secret Service if necessary, or to the FBI, but it was normally channels through the region or to the group headquarters. This information would then be made available to the requesting investigating agency.

For More:

http://jfkcountercou...houston_05.html
Edited by William Kelly, 05 February 2011 - 01:32 PM.

Robert Howard Posted 06 February 2011

Home/Archive/Documents/JFK Assassination Documents/House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA)/HSCA Segregated CIA Collection (staff notes)
180-10147-10166
Mr. Jones believes that one person with whom he would have spoken to was FBI Special Agent In Charge J Gordon Shanklin. He may have talked with the Dallas
FBI office more than one time that day......
In addition Jones believes that this "after action report" included information obtained from reports filed by the eight to twelve military agents
who performed liason functions with the Secret Service in Dallas on the day of the assassination.
http://www.maryferre...3&relPageId=104


FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File Section 1
At 3:15 p.m. November 22, 1963, Lt. Colonel Robert E. Jones,
Operations Officer 112th INCT Group, San Antonio, advised
that through news broadcasts they had learned that Lee Harvey
Oswald had been arrested after killing a Police Officer in a theater
and that Oswald was a suspect in President Kennedy's death.
Jones stated Oswald reportedly is married to a Russian woman
and has traveled extensively in Russia. When arrested today
in Dallas, according to information Col. Jones has,
Oswald was carrying a selective service card bearing the name
of Alex Hidell. Jones stated that INTC records here reflect reference
to an A. J. Hidell who reportedly has been distributing "Hands Off
Cuba" literature.
Records of INCT in New Orleans reflect that Oswald has been arrested
in New Orleans for distributing pro-Cuban literature.
The records of the Corpus Christi INTC Group contained the following
newspaper articles:
Corpus Christi Caller 1 November 1959
"EX-MARINE DEFECTS TO RUSSIA
"Texan Asks Russia to Become Citizen
"Moscow A.P.
"An ex-Marine from Texas told the U.S. Embassy
Saturday, that he was applying for Soviet citizenship.
"'I have made up my mind, I'm through' said Lee
Harvey Oswald, 20, of Fort Worth, Texas slapping his passport
on the desk.
http://www.maryferre...0&relPageId=185
the 105-82555 document continues to at least the page/URL below.
http://www.maryferre...0&relPageId=188

And Marina's perjury is interesting, although David Lifton would probably blame her translator or her poor english.

Miles Scull February 22, 2012

MARINA & "HIDELL"

On the topic of when she first learned of the name "Hidell", Marina told three different stories.



STORY # 1

Commission Exhibit 1789 is an interview that the Secret Service conducted with Marina Oswald on December 10, 1963.

On page 2 of that document, she was asked specifically if her husband used the name "Hidell" and she, according to the report, "replied in the negative".



STORY # 2

Just two months later, in her February 1964 testimony before the Warren Commission, she said that she learned about the fictitious "Hidell" from Oswald's radio debate in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever heard that he used the fictitious name Hidell?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he used such a name?

Mrs. Oswald. In New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that?

Mrs. Oswald. When he was interviewed by some anti-Cubans, he used this name and spoke of an organization.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you discover it, then?

Mrs. Oswald. I already said that when I listened to the radio, they spoke of that name, and I asked him who, and he said that it was he.

( 1 H 64 )

But the name "Hidell" was never mentioned during the radio debate, as one can see by examining a transcript of that broadcast ( Stuckey Exhibit 3 )

In addition to the non-mention of "Hidell" during the broadcast, Lt. Frank Martello of the New Orleans Police appeared before the Commission on April 7 & 8, 1964 and testified that when he interviewed Oswald, he asked Oswald for identification and Oswald produced his wallet. Martello asked him to empty the wallet and examined the contents of it. Among the contents was:

4. Card for the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in name of LEE HARVEY Oswald signed by A. J. HIDELL, Chapter President, issued June 6, 1963." ( 10 H 54 )

This was a signature on the card that Marina had signed and was seen by Martello before THE RADIO BROADCAST.

And Martello wasn't the only one who saw it.

FBI agent John Quigley interviewed Oswald at the time of his New Orleans arrest and testified on May 5, 1964 that he also SAW the FPCC membership card signed by "Hidell".

Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the membership cards in his possession at that time?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; he did, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You saw them?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; I did, sir. I think the last you will notice, in that last sentence he had in his possession both cards and exhibited both of them.

Mr. McCLOY. Right. One of them was, at least one of them, was signed A. Hidell?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; that is correct.

( 4 H 434 )

SO THERE ARE TWO WITNESSES WHO PROVE THAT MARINA'S # 2 STORY IS A LIE. SHE SIGNED THAT CARD before THE RADIO BROADCAST.



STORY # 3

Because of these developments, Marina Oswald was invited back to give testimony and appeared before the Commission on June 11, 1964. At that time she admitted signing the FPCC card as "A.J. Hidell" and said that Oswald threatened to beat her if she didn't sign the card.

If story # 3 was the truth, then the first two stories were lies.

She was never questioned about why she lied to the SS in December 1963 or why she lied under oath to the Commission in February 1964. The Commission just accepted her latest version of events as the truth because her latest version satisfied its preconceived notions.

"Oswald's membership card in the "New Orleans chapter" of the committee carried the signature of "A. J. Hidell," purportedly the president of the chapter, but there is no evidence that an "A. J. Hidell" existed and.....there is conclusive evidence that the name was an alias which Oswald used on various occasions. Marina Oswald herself wrote the name "Hidell" on the membership card at her husband's insistence." ( Report, pg. 292 )

Ed Butler could have verified Marina's claim of hearing the name Hidell on the radio show, but his name is not
on the witness list.: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/stuckey.htm
The testimony of William Kirk Stuckey was taken at 9:35 a.m., on June 6, 1964
............
Mr. JENNER. Had he again distributed hand, bills?
Mr. STUCKEY. To my knowledge; no. He may have. He may have. But, of course, I had no particular interest in it, and the papers were not carrying stories about it, and I, well, just had no contact with him at all.
I did not meet him until August 17, at which time I went by his house on Magazine Street to ask him to appear on my program. This was early in the morning, about 8 o'clock. I went early because I wanted to get him before he left.
Mr. JENNER. This was a Saturday?
Mr. STUCKEY. It is a Saturday. I knocked on the door, and this young fellow came out, without a shirt. He had a pair of Marine Corps fatigue trousers on. I asked him, "Are you Lee Oswald ?" And he said, "Yes."
I introduced myself and I told him I would like to have him on my program that night. So he asked me in on the porch. This was a screened porch, and I had a very brief chat. He said he would ask me inside for some coffee but that his wife and his baby were sleeping so we had better talk on the porch.
Mr. JENNER. Describe this Magazine Street place. Were you able to find it easily?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; no problem. It was on the side of the house or the entrance was on the side.
Mr. JENNER. Was on the side and somewhat back from the front?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it was facing the street; it wasn't facing the side of the property, but it was off set, to the rear.
Mr. JENNER. Frame house?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it was a frame house, as well as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. So we had a few cursory remarks there about the organization. He showed me his membership card to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which was interesting, and .it identified him as the secretary of the New Orleans chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and it was signed by A. Hidell, president.
Mr. JENNER. Was that president or secretary?
Mr. STUCKEY. President, A. Hidell. He was identified on the card. as I recall, as the secretary.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald?
Mr. STUCKEY. Oswald; yes. It was a card on which there was a handwritten--it said "Mr." and then a blank, and a handwritten name "Lee Oswald" was in the center of the card. In the lower right-hand corner it was signed by A. Hidell, president.
Mr. JENNER. Was this name familiar to you?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; as a matter of fact, I would like to explain this, that the name meant nothing to me at all, and the name never occurred to me again, I never thought of the name again, until after the assassination when Mr. Henry Wade of Dallas on television on a Sunday, I believe, mentioned that Oswald purchased a rifle from a Chicago mail-order house and had used the name A. Hidell in purchasing the rifle. When he said "A. Hidell" it hit me like, it was like a light bulb over my head, I recalled the name. Otherwise I would never have remembered the name. Oswald gave me some pieces of literature at this time. There were several-- I will mention them if you would like.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would.........

[Drew Phipps]

According to FBI report (below), they receive notice of the alias Hidell from Jones of the 112th at 3:15 PM on 11/22. The FBI left Klein's at 5:00 AM CST on 11/23 with the microfilm. Oswald's interviews at DPD begin again around 10:00 CST, so that is a 5 hour window of time in which to accomplish a forgery of the Selective Service card with the information necessary to link Oswald and the purchase of the rifle. I assume that is enough time.

In summary, then, borrowing from Tom...

Jones of the 112th says:

Jones goes on to say that on Nov. 22 he received information from Dallas that an individual had been arrested carrying identification with both the names A.J. Hidell (Selective Service Card) and Oswald.

Yet that fact isn't in the officers' own original reports or used publicly till Sunday 11/24/63. Later:

HSCA: To your knowledge, did Military Intelligence ever debrief Lee Harvey Oswald?

MR. JONES: The Military Intelligence of my group did not debrief him.

An interesting evasion, but there's more:

MR. JONES: My position, as Chief of Operations, or Operations Officer for the Group, all reports would come over my desk and I would read them and indicate disposition of the documents.

Under my supervision, we had a domestic intelligence officer who would continue to screen the files and prepare the dossiers and the necessary cards and file them in his section, which was called domestic intelligence, or DI.

HSCA: Did the file on Oswald ever contain a summary report?

MR. JONES: The file only contained information that I just have given you. His activities in New Orleans.

And yet the FBI says Jones told them something different:

Jones stated that INTC records here reflect reference to an A. J. Hidell who reportedly has been distributing "Hands Off Cuba" literature. Records of INCT in New Orleans reflect that Oswald has been arrested in New Orleans for distributing pro-Cuban literature. The records of the Corpus Christi INTC Group contained the following newspaper articles:

Corpus Christi Caller 1 November 1959 "EX-MARINE DEFECTS TO RUSSIA "Texan Asks Russia to Become Citizen "Moscow A.P. "An ex-Marine from Texas told the U.S. Embassy Saturday, that he was applying for Soviet citizenship. "'I have made up my mind, I'm through' said Lee Harvey Oswald, 20, of Fort Worth, Texas slapping his passport on the desk.

So Jones is being disingenuous with the HSCA. It is rather astounding to think that Jones could have become familiar with the contents of intelligence files in three different cities in two different states within an hour and fifteen minutes after Oswald's arrest for the Tippet murder, and in no time at all after Fritz reports Oswald's name at DPD Headquarters as a suspect for JFK..

Edit: Clement's report is dictated after the discovery of the Kleins records.

[Tom Scully]

Jim,

I would not keep putting this out, BWDIK ? I'm mentioning it because of the way you prefaced it, in this instance- "My review of the (much better) second edition of The Man Who Knew too Much"
I see a contradiction.... is the second edition "much better" because it is more precise? If that is the reason, how do you accurately consider this example? How do you want to influence your readers?

http://www.ctka.net/2009/russell_review_2.html
....
Russell explains why right at the start. A most compelling piece of evidence that Nagell had at the time of his arrest in September of 1963 was a near duplicate of Oswald's Uniformed Services Identification and Privileges Card. (See p. xvii) As Russell notes, it had the picture and the apparent signature of Oswald on it. Russell did not recall this card in the Warren Commission volumes. Neither did two other researchers he consulted with at the time. (ibid) The only other place the card had appeared was in an obscure book by Judy Bonner called Investigation of a Homicide. Bonner had gotten the card from the Dallas Police. But there is something even more interesting about the mystery. In the card seized by the Dallas Police, there is an overstamp that appears which says "October 1963". In the version that Nagell had, the imprint does not appear. Why? Because Nagell was in jail after September 20, 1963. Also, the photo of Oswald in the Nagell version is different. That photo is from a different ID card. And on that card, Oswald used his Alex J. Hidell alias. As Russell notes, this second card is believed to have been fabricated by Oswald himself, including the added picture. In other words, Nagell had to have been very close to Oswald prior to his September 1963 arrest. For he actually had access to Oswald's identification cards. Some versed in espionage would say that this indicates Nagell might have been either a "control agent" or a "surveillance operative" for Oswald. (The cards are pictured in the photo section of this book.)
From this information in the Preface, Russell cuts to chapter one of the text....

...........

Dick Russell 2003

Tom...

---------------

I agree with you about the manner in which the information is shared. No, we are not 100% sure this card was in that trunk or on his person at the time and I should have made mention of that... so thanks for catching that. I will continue to "embrace at my own risk" - I can appreciate you not accepting it as 100% conclusive, yet until something else turns up there is nothing which disassociates the card from Nagell...
right?
....................