Quote:Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building? Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in. Mr. BALL. Where were you standing? Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door. Mr. BALL. Outside the front door? Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me. Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps? Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step. Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go Mr. MOLINA. Yeah. Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots? Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
There's no doubt Molina is indicating that Truly went in 20-30 seconds after the shots. If we look at the Dunkel Film we see Truly outside the portal on the street. If you observe closely you can see him turn towards Baker and start to lift his leg just as Darnell pans away. I don't think you realize Ball has phrased his questioning in order to establish that he is talking about the 30 second time point.
Quote:Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before you saw Truly go in? Mr. MOLINA. No. Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. Mr. BALL. What did she say? Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.
Having established he was referring to the 30 second time point Ball then refers to Gloria Calvery under the presumption he has established that time point as the period during which these events occurred. If you were a more clever detective (and more honest) you would see the clues for this in the phrasing Ball uses. For one thing Ball says "Did Gloria come up?" Calvery was coming up the stairs and in. Ball was clearly referring to Calvery coming in the front door when he said "Did Gloria come up?" You also would have noticed that Molina said "She came in". Coming in is what they are talking about with Truly and is clearly also the assumed context they are talking about with Calvery. Clearly. Again, a better detective would notice that Molina said "She came in with this other girl". Gloria would not have come back from her office with another girl. She'd be more likely to return alone. Molina is clearly talking about all the people seen in Darnell coming in through the front door.
But I already pointed out for Molina to be referring to Calvery coming back from her office to the lobby 3-4 minutes later that would mean of all the people who were out there and even heard Calvery shouting Kennedy had been shot that none of them mentioned anything and it wasn't until Calvery returned to the lobby 4 minutes later that Molina first heard it. Not likely considering how many people went in to the lobby and what they would have been talking about. When I make a good point like this Bob you never answer it. Molina is clearly referring to Calvery's entry to the lobby from the steps. She was telling people on the way that JFK had been shot and continued to do so when entering the building. It doesn't matter if Molina spells it out directly or not it is clearly the context in which he is speaking.
When you apply this true and correct context to the events seen in Dunkel it creates a calibrated timeline by which to determine those events.
What's your game her Bob? Why are you trying to twist things against the obvious?
Molina said he was OUTSIDE the door when Truly (NOT Baker) entered the TSBD and that he was INSIDE the lobby when Gloria Calvery entered the TSBD.
How do you feel about this "minor" detail, Albert?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:I'll tell you what, Albert. I'm going to do something I really shouldn't do but, I've decided the truth is more important than winning debates, and after studying the whole Shelley/Calvery/Baker thing for many years, I've reached a rather startling conclusion. I'm going to share it with you now.
For a long time now, researchers have desperately tried to peg Running Woman as Gloria Calvery, despite the fact there is not a shred of evidence to indicate this is who Running Woman is.
Shelley and Lovelady could have left the steps, walked down the middle of the Elm St. extension and looked back to see Truly and Baker enter the TSBD.
THEN, Shelley and Lovelady could have kept walking a few more feet and met Gloria Calvery crying at the corner of the park (just west of the concrete island) where she told them about the assassination. Following that, they could have walked to the rail yard.
You guys have spent years trying to get Gloria Calvery running up Baker's butt, and for what?
Don't say I never gave you anything.
You don't seem to fathom your theory doesn't necessarily conflict with what is seen in Dunkel. The statement made by Shelley that he ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into Calvery doesn't necessarily conflict with what you see in Dunkel/Darnell/Couch.
What you are doing is like having a security camera video of a bank robbery that shows the hold up and then going to testimony to show why what you are seeing on film isn't what you are seeing. It doesn't make sense and you have it backwards. Film is the impartial objective witness. You don't use testimony to correct film, you use film to correct or contextualize testimony. The woman seen running up in Darnell/Couch is Calvery. When you correctly interpret Molina's timeline the woman seen running up in Darnell/Couch arrives exactly at the 20-30 second time point told of by Molina.
Also, if you observe Dunkel you'll see Lovelady and Shelley are headed up the Extension to go check out the rail yard. They aren't headed to the Knoll park as far as I can see. A good detective knows Calvery is running because she would have to in order to make it from seeing Kennedy shot from 15 feet away to making it to Molina in 30 seconds.
So, Albert, what did Molina do, run in behind Baker just in time to be in the lobby when Calvery entered? ::face.palm::
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
He had to if you follow the evidence. I believe Piper and West. Truly came in with a cop. And we know Calvery went to her office. In order to do that she would have to have gone in behind Molina.
The only reason ROKC promotes the falseness of the lunchroom encounter is because they are trying to squeeze their Prayer Man claim in no matter how much they deny it.
08-03-2017, 06:45 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2017, 07:06 PM by Bob Prudhomme.)
Albert Doyle Wrote:He had to if you follow the evidence. I believe Piper and West. Truly came in with a cop. And we know Calvery went to her office. In order to do that she would have to have gone in behind Molina.
The only reason ROKC promotes the falseness of the lunchroom encounter is because they are trying to squeeze their Prayer Man claim in no matter how much they deny it.
That prick Gordon moderates for spite.
"[FONT=&]Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary? [/FONT] [FONT=&]Mr. MOLINA. Yes. [/FONT] [FONT=&]Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? [/FONT] [FONT=&]Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl."
[/FONT]According to you, Gloria Calvery was Running Woman, and she ran into the TSBD directly on the heels of Officer Baker; leaving VERY little time and space for Molina to enter the TSBD and be in the lobby when Calvery entered. Yet, he tells Ball "[FONT=&]I was in the lobby standing there....". Sorry, Albert, it sounds as if he was in the lobby for a while before Calvery entered.
[/FONT]However, Molina tells us something else that is interesting.
"[FONT=&]Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? [/FONT] [FONT=&]Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked. [/FONT] [FONT=&]Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything? [/FONT] [FONT=&]Mr. MOLINA. Yes. [/FONT] [FONT=&]Mr. BALL. Yes, this fellow come to me---Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain[/FONT][FONT=&]
371
[/FONT][FONT=&]by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to .think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that."
[/FONT]So, if Molina was in the lobby and saw Calvery enter the TSBD, did he go back outside so he could go down "[FONT=&]to where the grassy slope is..."? How many times did Molina enter the TSBD?
What is far more likely is that Molina saw Truly enter the TSBD BY HIMSELF, 20-30 seconds after the last shot, then Molina went down to "where the grassy slope is...", then returned to the TSBD and was standing in the lobby when Gloria Calvery entered the TSBD.
Do you believe these are photos of Gloria Calvery?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Photo on left is woman ID'ed on Elm St. sidewalk as Gloria Calvery.
[/FONT][FONT=&]
[/FONT]
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
If you look at the current Education Forum Prayer Man thread Miller is taking crap from the usual Murphy knuckleheads like Ray Mitcham on Baker's first day affidavit. What you guys do is put extreme qualification on statements when they work against you but then demand precise literal interpretation on other statements. The Murphy-ites are trying to force Baker's statement to mean precisely the 3rd or 4th floor and force that to mean he changed his story. Of course no one considers that the evidence was under the control of the plotters who were actively framing Oswald as the events unfolded from the Depository to the Texas Theater. When you guys desperately need something to work in favor of Murphy this corruption suddenly disappears and everything is on the up and up in testimony and must be taken on its face. I don't know why Baker didn't detail the lunchroom in his 1st day affidavit. I suspect he misjudged the floor plan and thought the front steps went from the first floor to the second. Therefore the encounter happened on the 3rd floor in his mind. And maybe he stretched it to 4th floor in order to place Oswald closer to the Sniper's Nest. This could be the reason why Baker, a part of the notoriously-corrupted Dallas Police who were framing Oswald and possibly helped murder him, did not help Oswald's alibi by mentioning the lunchroom specifically. To the Murphy-ites Baker's affidavit is solid proof of no lunchroom encounter, but in reality it is easily explained and doesn't really mean anything. Meanwhile it has already been told to the Murphy-ites that Roy Truly went home and told his wife of the lunchroom encounter that night. In their attack on Miller the Education Forum Murphy-ites fail to mention this. What probably happened is Oswald and Baker told people he was in the lunchroom and the conspiracists realized they wouldn't get away with it and Baker was allowed to admit it.
In that same Education Forum Prayer Man thread Andrej Stancak posted an "Overlay" image that juxtaposed an image of the empty portal with Darnell. Stancak's overlay showed exactly what I had been explaining verbally. In that image Stancak created a cartoon graphic for Frazier but he didn't place one for Prayer Man. You see my verbal descriptions of the portal were quite accurate. So accurate in fact that when Stancak created that overlay it showed exactly what I had been describing. It became immediately apparent to me that the reason Stancak did not place a cartoon graphic over Prayer Man was because the overlay made it too apparent that it didn't fit and actually showed what I was saying. That Prayer Man was on the landing (which he is). While Gordon has prevented me from posting there is not one Education Forum member who has the decency or honesty to ask Stancak why he didn't place a graphic image over Prayer Man. The reason they don't is because they are not arguing honestly. They are only trying to desperately force any kind of pro-Murphy evidence while ignoring that which refutes it (with Gordon's crooked aid). It is very obvious to me that Stancak did put a cartoon graphic for Prayer Man over Prayer Man in his overlay and when he did it became immediately apparent that it didn't fit because, as I had been explaining, the body proportion ratios prove he can't be standing with one leg down on the step (as do the sun and shadow). It is also obvious to me that the reason I have been crookedly banned from the Education Forum is because the crook Gordon knows I am capable of taking down his favored posters with this evidence. There's not one honest or decent member that will point this out to Stancak. They're willing to trade the entire credibility of the Education Forum to desperately force Murphy and retain their clique.
Albert Doyle Wrote:If you look at the current Education Forum Prayer Man thread Miller is taking crap from the usual Murphy knuckleheads like Ray Mitcham on Baker's first day affidavit. What you guys do is put extreme qualification on statements when they work against you but then demand precise literal interpretation on other statements. The Murphy-ites are trying to force Baker's statement to mean precisely the 3rd or 4th floor and force that to mean he changed his story. Of course no one considers that the evidence was under the control of the plotters who were actively framing Oswald as the events unfolded from the Depository to the Texas Theater. When you guys desperately need something to work in favor of Murphy this corruption suddenly disappears and everything is on the up and up in testimony and must be taken on its face. I don't know why Baker didn't detail the lunchroom in his 1st day affidavit. I suspect he misjudged the floor plan and thought the front steps went from the first floor to the second. Therefore the encounter happened on the 3rd floor in his mind. And maybe he stretched it to 4th floor in order to place Oswald closer to the Sniper's Nest. This could be the reason why Baker, a part of the notoriously-corrupted Dallas Police who were framing Oswald and possibly helped murder him, did not help Oswald's alibi by mentioning the lunchroom specifically. To the Murphy-ites Baker's affidavit is solid proof of no lunchroom encounter, but in reality it is easily explained and doesn't really mean anything. Meanwhile it has already been told to the Murphy-ites that Roy Truly went home and told his wife of the lunchroom encounter that night. In their attack on Miller the Education Forum Murphy-ites fail to mention this. What probably happened is Oswald and Baker told people he was in the lunchroom and the conspiracists realized they wouldn't get away with it and Baker was allowed to admit it.
In that same Education Forum Prayer Man thread Andrej Stancak posted an "Overlay" image that juxtaposed an image of the empty portal with Darnell. Stancak's overlay showed exactly what I had been explaining verbally. In that image Stancak created a cartoon graphic for Frazier but he didn't place one for Prayer Man. You see my verbal descriptions of the portal were quite accurate. So accurate in fact that when Stancak created that overlay it showed exactly what I had been describing. It became immediately apparent to me that the reason Stancak did not place a cartoon graphic over Prayer Man was because the overlay made it too apparent that it didn't fit and actually showed what I was saying. That Prayer Man was on the landing (which he is). While Gordon has prevented me from posting there is not one Education Forum member who has the decency or honesty to ask Stancak why he didn't place a graphic image over Prayer Man. The reason they don't is because they are not arguing honestly. They are only trying to desperately force any kind of pro-Murphy evidence while ignoring that which refutes it (with Gordon's crooked aid). It is very obvious to me that Stancak did put a cartoon graphic for Prayer Man over Prayer Man in his overlay and when he did it became immediately apparent that it didn't fit because, as I had been explaining, the body proportion ratios prove he can't be standing with one leg down on the step (as do the sun and shadow). It is also obvious to me that the reason I have been crookedly banned from the Education Forum is because the crook Gordon knows I am capable of taking down his favored posters with this evidence. There's not one honest or decent member that will point this out to Stancak. They're willing to trade the entire credibility of the Education Forum to desperately force Murphy and retain their clique.
You're rambling, Albert. Try to stay focused and answer my questions, if you can.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:[FONT=&]
[/FONT]According to you, Gloria Calvery was Running Woman, and she ran into the TSBD directly on the heels of Officer Baker; leaving VERY little time and space or Molina to enter the TSBD and be in the lobby when Calvery entered. Yet, he tells Ball "[FONT=&]I was in the lobby standing there....". Sorry, Alber, it sounds as if he was in the lobby for a while before Calvery entered.
[/FONT]However, Molina ells us something else tha is interesting.
"[FONT=&]Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? [/FONT] [FONT=&]Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked. [/FONT] [FONT=&]Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything? [/FONT] [FONT=&]Mr. MOLINA. Yes. [/FONT] [FONT=&]Mr. BALL. Yes, this fellow come to me---Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain[/FONT][FONT=&]
371
[/FONT][FONT=&]by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to .think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that."
[/FONT]So, if Molina was in the lobby and saw Calvery enter the TSBD, did he go back outside so he could go down "[FONT=&]to where the grassy slope is..."? How many times did Molina enter the TSBD?
What is far more likely is that Molina saw Truly enter the TSBD BY HIMSELF, 20-30 seconds after the last shot, then Molina went down to "where the grassy slope is...", then returned to the TSBD and was standing in the lobby when Gloria Calvery entered the TSBD.
Do you believe this is a photo of Gloria Calvery?
[/FONT]
You're cherry picking Bob. I've asked you several times if you think that in the 3 to 4 minutes that Calvery took to get back to the lobby if you think no one mentioned JFK being shot? You know as well as I do that is very unlikely to the point of impossible. Your scenario involves all the people seen in Darnell headed to the Depository, who just had Calvery running past them shouting Kennedy had been shot, not saying anything and Molina not hearing about it until Calvery came back to the lobby 3-4 minutes later. An observation of your argument style is you deliberately shield yourself from evidence you don't want to hear in order to preserve your stretched interpretations. Meanwhile the testimony makes it clear Molina heard this from Calvery as she entered the building, as both the statements and common sense dictate.
Gloria Calvery is obviously running woman because she fits the timing perfectly as well as obviously being seen running and telling people Kennedy had been shot.
You're ignoring the evidence Bob. It's right in front of you in the film. You are also ignoring that I have qualified Molina's standing there. You are trying to get away with ignoring Molina's testimony to Ball where he says right there I was just outside the door and stepped in. What this means Bob is your desperate attempt to get around the obvious evidence is refuted by Molina whose statement you are ignoring right next to the material you are quoting. If you bothered to correctly read the testimony it describes exactly why Molina could not be in the lobby a long time.
No Bob, you are ignoring as a function of your arguments. You can't do that. It isn't playing fair. If you look at my previous posts you'll see we have defined how Ball is predicating the time period in question to being that of Truly entry 20-30 seconds after the shots. The specific words "up" and "in" designate that Ball is referring to Calvery's first entry into the lobby from outside.
You can't use your word tricks with me Bob. I'm too smart.
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:You're rambling, Albert. Try to stay focused and answer my questions, if you can.
I understand that my reasonable explanation of Baker's affidavit makes sense and you can't honestly answer it if you are going to maintain your gratuitous doubt.
So you're not going to ask Stancak why he didn't add the Prayer Man graphic to his overlay?
I have answered your disingenuous questions. You're ignoring the answers.
It would have to be the person next to Millican because she doesn't have a scarf. But this is immaterial and regressive because we can see Calvery running up in Dunkel.
![[Image: post-5057-0-11084000-1440711332.jpg]](http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-5057-0-11084000-1440711332.jpg)