Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

[Albert Doyle]

And there is also Pauline Sanders' FBI statement from March 19th 1964 which states that sheleft the lunch room at approximately 12:20! Yet her Nov 24th statement, which I personally
regard as a fixed' statement, states she left at 11:25 AM, an hour before the motorcade was
expected to pass by the TSBD!
2-is the observation brought forward of Oswald sitting down and eating lunch in that
particular lunch room.

Kamp never stops to consider that Pauline Sanders' Nov 24th statement corroborated Carolyn Arnold's 12:25 time and the fixing he suspects was FBI changing it to 11:25 instead. When they couldn't control her testimony in March '64 she said 12:20.

The second floor lunchroom was for office staff and management only. The labourers only had
access to this lunch room to grab a drink quickly and to get out and eat their lunch outside or
downstairs on the first floor in the Domino Room.

Irrelevant. Carolyn Arnold was a witness who was there and was firm about what she witnessed. Kamp is just a nervy ROKC evidence hacker with the hubris to place himself and his transparent contrivances before a real witness. If anything, being a CIA operative, Oswald knew he had nothing to fear from this and enjoyed a Depository status well beyond any of the others. Besides, everyone was out front and no one would know the difference. Kamp is so used to looking through his narrow lens that he misses the bigger picture. If Kamp were a better detective he might realize that maybe Oswald lied and said he was downstairs in the Domino Room in order to avoid any laborer in the lunchroom issues.

Roy Edward Lewis confirmed this in Larry
Sneed's No More Silence and Billy Lovelady was another one who stated he had gotten a drink
for his lunch from that very same lunch room on the second floor and made his way down and
eventually consumed his beverage and his lunch on the front steps.
Furthermore if Oswald had been sitting there, other office employees who had lunch before
they went downstairs would have noticed and mentioned this. Yet no one did.

If Kamp were a better detective he would realize that the others went downstairs before Oswald and would therefore be much more likely to have seen Oswald at 12:15 than 12:25.


Kamp is dishonestly trying to say Carolyn Arnold said she saw Oswald in the foyer when she left the building but didn't want to get involved when Golz interviewed her in 1978. The truth is Carolyn Arnold was adamant that she did not see Oswald in the lobby and FBI must have added that.

[LR Trotter]

My fellow comrades, friends, allies and foes, as well as my secret admire enemies. Who really gives a shit where Oswald was? Front porch, first floor, second floor coke room, witness room or in the bathroom taking a dump after he ate his lunch. Bottom-line, Oswald was NOT on the sixth floor at the time of shooting.

Argument settled now?

The End,

I wish you had included fellow posters in your specified groups. At least then I would be confident as to where I belong. In any event Mr Kaiser, I am confident that LeeHarveyOswald was on the TSBD building 2nd floor at or near the soft drink machine when encountered, according to testimony/statements, at about 12:32pm CST, 11/22/'63. Apparently, there appears to be a story line that needs the encounter to have not occurred, in order to remove LHO from the 2nd floor at the time, and place him "somewhere else", in order to increase the likelihood of him being "another place" at about 12:30pm CST, and/or as the JFK Motorcade drove past the TSBD and the fatal wounding of JFK, and serious wounding of JBC, took place. However, "somewhere else", and "another place", are separate locations, which is important. In any event, I do not believe the 2nd floor encounter, which indicates LHO was already there and therefor decreases the time between the shooting and his 2nd floor presence, in any way enhances the theory that he was a LoneGunmanAssassin. Further stated, LHO's presence on the 2nd floor would most likely be at least 30 seconds prior to the encounter, and that itself decreases any supposed possibility for him to be a LGA.

[Albert Doyle]

Further stated, LHO's presence on the 2nd floor would most likely be at least 30 seconds prior to the encounter, and that itself decreases any supposed possibility for him to be a LGA.

It makes better detective sense that Oswald was seen with a Coke and candy bar in hand and that those two items would have taken at least 30 seconds to fish the change out of a pocket, count it, and deposit it in to the particular machines. Kamp knows this, which is why he avoids mentioning it.


It would be seriously remiss to not consider these evidentiary clues and how they affect any investigation of the lunchroom encounter. Jim fails to realize that Baker's motivation in avoiding the particulars of the lunchroom encounter in his affidavit is not because it didn't happen, instead it is because those particulars, when truthfully related, were so damning to the official supposition that Oswald was the shooter that they had to be omitted...

[LR Trotter]

Further stated, LHO's presence on the 2nd floor would most likely be at least 30 seconds prior to the encounter, and that itself decreases any supposed possibility for him to be a LGA.

It makes better detective sense that Oswald was seen with a Coke and candy bar in hand and that those two items would have taken at least 30 seconds to fish the change out of a pocket, count it, and deposit it in to the particular machines. Kamp knows this, which is why he avoids mentioning it.


It would be seriously remiss to not consider these evidentiary clues and how they affect any investigation of the lunchroom encounter. Jim fails to realize that Baker's motivation in avoiding the particulars of the lunchroom encounter in his affidavit is not because it didn't happen, instead it is because those particulars, when truthfully related, were so damning to the official supposition that Oswald was the shooter that they had to be omitted...

Evidence is evidence, whether processed or ignored. My point about the additional time required for LHO's arrival at the soft drink machine matches your response.

As for being included as evidentiary clues, I allow for some perceived value at play relative to said particulars being related along with the substance of the encounter. Just maybe those particulars seemed unimportant to the account as reported by MLB at the time. Do I know for sure? Of course not, but I allow for the possibility.

[Albert Doyle]

Just maybe those particulars seemed unimportant to the account as reported by MLB at the time. Do I know for sure? Of course not, but I allow for the possibility.

I think Baker would be aware of Dallas Police procedure and not wanting to give an alibi for a suspect he knew was being preferred at the time.



It makes eminent sense that Oswald was where Carolyn Arnold saw him the whole time. Fritz said Oswald told him he was eating a cheese sandwich and Coke in the 2nd floor lunchroom during the shots. I speculate Oswald never went to the 1st floor Domino Room with his lunch because it doesn't make sense for him to get up from where Carolyn Arnold saw him and carry the whole thing downstairs. I would guess his other claim that he ate on the 1st floor was just to get him out of any laborer eating in the management lunchroom issues. The interviewer of Fritz tried to get him to confirm Oswald came upstairs to get a Coke. Fritz didn't agree with that and only agreed that Oswald had a Coke in the 2nd floor lunchroom. That right there tells me Oswald told Fritz he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom as Fritz confirmed in his previous answer. This matches Carolyn Arnold, so common sense tells you it bridges over and Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom.

[Lauren Johnson]

It is now very clear that it is possible to say that LHO was on the first floor at the time of the killing of JFK without having to say that LHO was the Prayer Individual. And that is all that Jim DiEugenio is arguing. He adopts one portion of Kamp's work without having to agree with him regarding LHO. Furthermore, any mention of Bart Kamp or ROKC will be viewed in the same light. I will simply delete these posts.

Therefore, there will be no more trolling of Jim on this matter. None.

[Jim DiEugenio]

That is not what I said.

You are deliberately misquoting what I did with the excerpt to fulfill your own bizarre agenda.

Three sentences out of a 124 pages is enough for you to jump up and scream in your best Cohn/McCarthy imitation: "You sir are not worthy to be wearing that uniform of an officer."

Anyway, for anyone else who is not so afflicted, I advise you to read the excerpt, and then if it interests you, go ahead and click through tot he long version.

It will be interesting for most objective people, like Larry Hancock. It would seem to me that Bart makes the case Oswald was on the first floor.

The next part of this Bart will take on is the interrogation of Oswald. That should be interesting also.

Finally, Bart is scheduled to be on Len Osanic's Black Op Radio this week.

Thanks, Jim. Looking forward to Bart's turn on BOR. Fascinating conclusions/speculations.

Mark, thanks. And I hope that in all the huffing and puffing the point of the issue is not lost. When I wrote Reclaiming Parkland, way back over four years ago, I talked about this on BOR. I said that the more I contemplated it, the reason the second floor lunchroom incident was fabricated was two fold:

1.) To detract from the guy Baker said he saw in his affidavit--who might be the guy Worrell said he saw running out the back of the TSBD, and

2.) To transfer Oswald from the first floor to the second. It was hard enough to buy the fact that Oswald flew down from the sixth floor to the second in such a short time. But to think he went all the way down to the first floor? See, and that would make it easier to understand why no one saw him get a coke--if he did such a thing. Because he could have gone up the stairway that went only from the first to the second floor. Therefore, if you were framing Oswald, this would be an important step, since it was a twofer.

This is why I think Kamp's work is important. And all this mindless venom being passed around detracts from this important evidence. And probable conclusions. Which I suspected to be the case back in 2013.

[Albert Doyle]

He adopts one portion of Kamp's work without having to agree with him regarding LHO.

Lauren,



If this is true then it is perfectly fair to ask Jim to answer for Carolyn Arnold's witnessing and, more importantly, Kamp's deliberate distortion of it. I don't see why it was deleted because this does not violate any of your restrictions. It is something Jim does every day with other people.



It's a perfectly reasonable evidence-backed simple point. Why the harsh moderation?

[Lauren Johnson]

Why the harsh moderation?

Because you have proved to the Moderators and Founders that you are a joke. And that is being complimentary.

::gtfo::

[LR Trotter]

That is not what I said.

You are deliberately misquoting what I did with the excerpt to fulfill your own bizarre agenda.

Three sentences out of a 124 pages is enough for you to jump up and scream in your best Cohn/McCarthy imitation: "You sir are not worthy to be wearing that uniform of an officer."

Anyway, for anyone else who is not so afflicted, I advise you to read the excerpt, and then if it interests you, go ahead and click through tot he long version.

It will be interesting for most objective people, like Larry Hancock. It would seem to me that Bart makes the case Oswald was on the first floor.

The next part of this Bart will take on is the interrogation of Oswald. That should be interesting also.

Finally, Bart is scheduled to be on Len Osanic's Black Op Radio this week.

Thanks, Jim. Looking forward to Bart's turn on BOR. Fascinating conclusions/speculations.

Mark, thanks. And I hope that in all the huffing and puffing the point of the issue is not lost. When I wrote Reclaiming Parkland, way back over four years ago, I talked about this on BOR. I said that the more I contemplated it, the reason the second floor lunchroom incident was fabricated was two fold:

1.) To detract from the guy Baker said he saw in his affidavit--who might be the guy Worrell said he saw running out the back of the TSBD, and

2.) To transfer Oswald from the first floor to the second. It was hard enough to buy the fact that Oswald flew down from the sixth floor to the second in such a short time. But to think he went all the way down to the first floor? See, and that would make it easier to understand why no one saw him get a coke--if he did such a thing. Because he could have gone up the stairway that went only from the first to the second floor. Therefore, if you were framing Oswald, this would be an important step, since it was a twofer.

This is why I think Kamp's work is important. And all this mindless venom being passed around detracts from this important evidence. And probable conclusions. Which I suspected to the the case back in 2013.

​Excuse me Mr DiEugenio, but I do not consider anything I have posted to be "huffing and puffing", nor do I believe my comments qualify as "mindless venom being passed around"! If any of my expressed thoughts and/or opinions are proven wrong, so be it, and I gladly take that chance. However, my disagreeing with you does not justify your comments. I try to be, and hopefully am successful at being, polite and respectful when posting, and much prefer to not post anything that I would not express verbally and in person.