Alan Ford Wrote:On the move, with Dallas Deputy Sheriff John Wiseman (I've taken the liberty of inserting time/timing elements for each stage of his actions. They aren't slanted to favor an outcome as much as produce a reasonable element of time given his words & actions until he reaches the LOCKED roof. For now, let's just take his full statement in its entirety ---->
COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
Name of Compainant
Assassination Of President Kennedy
Offense
John Wiseman, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.
Date Nov 23, 1963
I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office at 505 Main Street, Dallas when the President passed and the car went around the corner and a few more cars had passed when I heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots ran out. I ran on across Houston Street, then across the park to where a policeman was having trouble with his motorcycle and I saw a man laying on the grass. This man laying on the grass said the shots came from the building and he was pointing to the old Sexton Building. I talked to Marilyn Sitzman, 202 S. Lancaster who said her boss, Abraham Zaprutes, RI 8 6071, had movies of the shooting. She said the shots came from that way and she pointed at the old Sexton Building. I ran at once to the Sexton Building and went in. I askes some woman how many doors lead out of the building and she said 4. I left the building and found some DPD patrolmen and we came back to the building. I ran up the stairs and the patrolman started trying to get more help to search the building. I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch. I stopped and started back down the stairs taking a quick look on each floor. I met more officers on the 2nd floor and then in a few minutes the place had maybe 50 officers in it. A better search was started floor by floor. About the time we got started on the 5th floor, Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney found some spent hulls. An officer of the Dallas Police Department told us all to get on one side of the room and make one clean sweep of the entire floor to see if we could find the rifle. As we worked our way across the room which was filled with boxes, we got to the front stairway when Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boon said, "here is the gun". It was about 4 feet in front of me in the aisle in which I was working. Deputy Boone stayed at one end of the aisle where the gun was spotted and I stayed at the other end of the aisle so that nothing would be touched. Officer Day of the DPD Crime Lab came and took pictures of the gun in its hiding spot behind the boxes and then moved it from this spot. I then left the building and came back to the Sheriff's Office to talk with witnesses. A Mrs. Mary Moorman was in the office with a picture of the President getting shot.
Okay, now I'll share his statement while also interjecting time elements to demonstrate that he found the LOCKED roof locked way before the lying tandem could have ever come down from it, IF they were really upon it in the first place. Whether they stayed, quote, "Over 5 minutes", or even longer amid Roy Truly's revised lie about an extended stay, quote, "time delay and back", the honest Dallas Deputy-Sheriff should not have found the roof LOCKED IF they really were up there.
On the move, with Dallas Deputy Sheriff John Wiseman. Let's begin ---->
COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
Name of Compainant
Assassination Of President Kennedy
Offense
John Wiseman, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.
Date Nov 23, 1963
I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office at 505 Main Street, Dallas when the President passed and the car went around the corner and a few more cars had passed when I heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots ran out.
So, far no more than 10 seconds have elapsed, and at this point in time even Marrion Bakerper his own testimonyis still riding his motorcycle on Houston about 60 feet shy of the corner of Houston & Elm.
I ran on across Houston Street, then across the park to where a policeman was having trouble with his motorcycle and I saw a man laying on the grass. This man laying on the grass said the shots came from the building and he was pointing to the old Sexton Building.
At this point, a racing/sprinting Wiseman (John) has already crossed Elm Street onto the other side of the park, now on the knoll 15-20 yards shy of Marilyn Stizman's position atop the knoll. Marrion Baker--not to be confused w/the motorcycle officer near Mr. Wiseman-- has parked his own motorcycle by now and is on foot, sprinting towards the sidewalk near the TSBD. Though he and Roy Truly claim they went up the entrance stairs and entered the TSBD together, not a single photo-amid all of the camera bulbs flashing that afternoonconfirm this, nor does the testimony of two honest people (Buell Wesley Frazier and Joe Molina) standing at the entrance door, but I'll give the lying tandem a free pass here as we continue along our timeline.
I talked to Marilyn Sitzman, 202 S. Lancaster who said her boss, Abraham Zaprutes, RI 8 6071, had movies of the shooting. She said the shots came from that way and she pointed at the old Sexton Building. I ran at once to the Sexton Building
Taking into account his conversation with Marilyn Stizman in her position in close proximity to the building, he consumes 35-40 seconds. At this point in time, Roy Truly & Marrion Baker, now having made their readjustmentsafter bumping into each other at the swinging door contraption near the entrance areaper their own testimonythe tandem are now at a, quoting Marrion Baker here ---->
Mr. BAKER - We finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the Building
picking up again w/Mr. Wiseman ---->
and went in. I askes some woman how many doors lead out of the building and she said 4.
After asking either Sandra Styles or Victoria Elizabeth Adams this (take your pick because per Adams' testimony they are the only women in that time sequence to be able to encounter Mr. Wiseman) in that particular position.
I left the building and found some DPD patrolmen… and we came back to the building.
Lucky for Mr. Wiseman, DPD patrolman Welcome Barnett (see his testimony) was near that location in the same time frame. At this point, since he is unaware of what's happening inside the building, Mr. Wiseman does not see the lying tandem calling up for an elevator, nor does he see them abandon their wait for an elevator moments later, and decide to take the stairs instead...spend 30 seconds with the wrongly accused in the lunchroom, or so they say, then retrace their steps back across the floor to the stairs to climb several more floors before hopping the East elevator to the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Floor, then teleporting themselves through an otherwise LOCKED roof (they are lying again but, Oh, well, I'll give them another free pass here as well to make even the Serpent in the Garden of Eden blush).
Now, Returning to Mr. Wiseman
and we came back to the building
then, per his own testimony, DPD's Welcome Barnett shares that he makes the choice to return to the front of the building…
simultaneously , now picking back up w/Mr. Wiseman ---->
I ran up the stairs and the patrolman started trying to get more help to search the building. I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch. I stopped and started back down the stairs taking a quick look on each floor.
We'll end here at the LOCKED roof. Again, whether the lying tandem stayed upon the roof for, quote, "Over 5 minutes, or even longer amid Roy Truly's newly revised lie @ time delay and back, somebody's lying and it is not the wrongly accused (Mr. Lee Oswald).
Now, What did you really do that afternoon, Roy Truly ? ----->
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.
Pleading the 5th?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.
Stopwatch anyone? Actually, yes! At least on occasion!
DPD Officer ML Baker's Affidavit/Warren Commision-08/11/'64:
02-02-2018, 07:17 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2018, 08:48 PM by Alan Ford.)
A fair challenge here, Mr. Trotter, IF you feel strongly enough about introducing the notion of a stop-watch into this debate, perhaps you can demonstrate for those reading along here a definitive timeline as oppose to generic references to a stop-watch. I await your decision, indecision, or outright refusal. It's your choice.
As we await your definitive stop-watch timeline, hopefully--in fairness & truth-- it begins with Baker's motorcycle 60-90 feet away from the corner of Elm & Houston, and ends at the precise time your stop-watch puts them on the scene of their initial engagement of the locked roof.
Then perhaps you can explain how Roy Truly uses his trusty key to that lock, and somehow was able to re-lock the same while on the other side :hock::
explaining Why, and How, he took such an action would be just as interesting, care to humour us?
I caution you though, that IF you do decide to share irrefutable stop-watch specifics here, don't forget I still have in reserve five (5) others who found the roof also inaccessible. Three (3) of them, as was the case w/Dallas Deputy Sheriff John "An Honest To Goodness Lawman" Wiseman, was also right on the heels of the tall-tale tandem. Hint. One of them even experienced a power outage when riding a freight elevator, which places him even closer to the unfolding action. The other Two (2) --not necessarily on the heels but w/pertinent information regarding the LOCKED roof--will add an exclamation point upon the LOCKED roof as well.
Just so we are clear here, I personally don't believe any stop-watches ultilied, err, utilized by the WC in order to hone in on establishing the "truth" of a hastily contrived script concocted to frame an innocent party; however, though I'm adopting a Missouri (The Show Me State attitude), go ahead, make your stop-watch case. Will it stand the test of time?
While we await your decision to introduce the irrefutable evidence of your stop-watch, Am just wondering aloud why Roy Truly was over in the sniper's nest before the authorities ---->
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.
Alan Ford Wrote:A fair challenge here, Mr. Trotter, IF you feel strongly enough about introducing the notion of a stop-watch into this debate, perhaps you can demonstrate for those reading along here a definitive timeline as oppose to generic references to a stop-watch. I await your decision, indecision, or outright refusal. It's your choice.
As we await your definitive stop-watch timeline, hopefully--in fairness & truth-- it begins with Baker's motorcycle 60-90 feet away from the corner of Elm & Houston, and ends at the precise time your stop-watch puts them on the scene of their initial engagement of the locked roof.
Then perhaps you can explain how Roy Truly uses his trusty key to that lock, and somehow was able to re-lock the same while on the other side :hock::
explaining Why, and How, he took such an action would be just as interesting, care to humour us?
I caution you though, that IF you do decide to share irrefutable stop-watch specifics here, don't forget I still have in reserve five (5) others who found the roof also inaccessible. Three (3) of them, as was the case w/Dallas Deputy Sheriff John "An Honest To Goodness Lawman" Wiseman, was also right on the heels of the tall-tale tandem. Hint. One of them even experienced a power outage when riding a freight elevator, which places him even closer to the unfolding action. The other Two (2) --not necessarily on the heels but w/pertinent information regarding the LOCKED roof--will add an exclamation point upon the LOCKED roof as well.
Just so we are clear here, I personally don't believe any stop-watches ultilied, err, utilized by the WC in order to hone in on establishing the "truth" of a hastily contrived script concocted to frame an innocent party; however, though I'm adopting a Missouri (The Show Me State attitude), go ahead, make your stop-watch case. Will it stand the test of time?
While we await your decision to introduce the irrefutable evidence of your stop-watch, Am just wondering aloud why Roy Truly was over in the sniper's nest before the authorities ---->
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.
As per a timed re-enactment on March 20, 1964, DPD MotorcyclePatrolOfficer MarrionLewisBaker reached the TSBD Building entrance fifteen seconds after the simulated shot.
I tend to wonder, as I wander, if AlanFord can deal with the March 20, 1964 re-enactment establishing OfficerBaker's "fifteen seconds after the simulated shot" arrival at the entrance doorway at the TSBD Building, instead of demanding additional stopwatch evidence for other occurrences associated with November 22, 1963? Possibly, he can present stopwatch evidence to back up his timing assertions that contradict eyewitnesses andinvestigators' sworn statements/testimony. Can he?
Just maybe, AlanFord can present evidence, aside from calling eyewitnesses to the assassination "liars", as well as calling assassination investigators and/or reaction eyewitnesses "liars". Can he?
Especially, maybe AlanFord can present evidence that the TSBD Building 7th floor roof access door was "locked with a key lock", instead of a hook latch, removable by hand, as testimony indicates. Can he?
Also, maybe AlanFord can present evidence that firmly disputes timing estimates furnished by TSBD BuildingSuperintendent RoySansomTruly, regarding when he returned to the 6th floor, southeast corner. Can he?
And again, maybe AlanFord can present evidence that DCS Deputy JohnW Wiseman moved at superhuman speed on foot, from Houston St near Main St, after the last shot, go across "the park" to see DPD Motorcycle Officer BobbyHargis having difficulty with his motorcycle, on the south side of Elm St, then speak to a man on the ground, and then speak with AbrahamZapruter's Assistant MarilynSitzman concerning the origin of the shots, then proceed to the TSBD, fka TheSextonBuilding, enter the building, question a lady about the number of doors to the building, then leave the building to find additional officers to assist in a building search, then re-enter the building to begin a search, and be on the heels of OfficerBaker and SuperintendentTruly. Can he?
It is my wish to offer an apology to RichardGillbride, as this thread seems to have veered away from any direct connection to the Holmes' Testimony. That said, I was posting in response to assertions being posted that appear to me to be void of fact. And, if I feel a response is needed, I may continue to post in response.
I do hope, however, that any additional assertions not directly related to the Holmes' Testimony be placed in a more appropriate thread.
Chris Davidson Wrote:A better representation of Baker's time from third shot response to the TSBD curb can be attained by a few film syncs.
The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the head shot, until the Hester sync = 21seconds.
Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.
Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his run down the knoll.
Gerda's dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.
There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.
Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to Baker before we see him in Gerda's dual-sync.
Baker's run to the curb equals 4 seconds.
This total = approx 29.8 seconds.
Well done, Mr. Davidson, appreciate your fair evaluation/assessment of the total time elapsed.
The timing element here is essential to the truth. Two thumbs up to Gerda, yayaaa!
That said, within in the space of time & sequence the script-readers (Roy Truly & Marrion Baker) parrot back their "truth" amid a broken record of "Discussions off the record"), three other honest to goodness lawmen also found the roof inaccessible (three others aside from Dallas Deputy Sheriff John "Made of Honour" Wiseman), who found the roof LOCKED.
Moreover, whether one chooses to use Roy Truly's initial lie or his newly revised one (time delay and back off the roof) alie is still a lie. There is not a single photo depicting him or Marrion doing any of the actions/activity(ies) they claim upon the roof. Two things here: Not a single image--in spite of all the camera bulbs flashing that afternoon, given the nature of what is unfolding, confirms their actions/activity(ies) up there, let alone NOT a single person in Dealey Plaza that afternoon is extending his or her arms frantically while pointing their index fingers to the roof while yelling out the position of the claimants. The lack of interest is very telling. Their propensity for lying is very telling as well.
Back tomorrow with a photo--that--IF true--will leave no question that the tall tales of Roy Truly and Marrion Baker are nothing more than a hastily contrived script concocted to FRAME an innocent party.
Addendum:
Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at me
now the Freudian slip ---->
Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.
How was that again? ----->
sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.
What did Roy Truly really do that afternoon?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer.
Can't or WON't?
Cat got your tongue?
Pleading the 5th?
*Self-reminder: Take Mr. Davidson's timing elements to compile a tweaked Mr. Wiseman's run, and the runs of the other three honest to goodness lawman who also found the roof inaccessible.
Somebody is lying here, and it is not the wrongly accused (Mr. Lee Oswald).
Assuming Mr Davidson's analysis was done using timing estimates from unaltered/unedited films, it appears that approximately 14.8 seconds, depending on the estimated relative time of the last shot versus the re-enactment simulated shot, has been added to Officer Baker's arrival time at the TSBD entrance.
Maybe, a similar analysis can be done using timing estimates from unaltered/unedited films, to establish the time of each entrance to the TSBD by Deputy Wiseman, after the last shot. His own report indicates he was on Main St at Houston St when he heard the last shot fired.
In any event, I stand by my comments as posted.
And, I will continue to avoid claiming deceased eyewitnesses are "liars".
06-02-2018, 07:25 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2018, 09:23 PM by Alan Ford.)
Which Lie Is It, Roy Truly?
Not the ones you've already told about the otherwise LOCKED roof @ quote Over 5 minutes upon the roof but no more than 9:59:59 secs, Or your newly revised one of the same @ quote, time delay and back, to fit a coerced timeline after the fact, but the following new lies (take your pick Truly...somewhere Pinocchio is blushing) ---->
Q - Can you confirm me whether the Warren Commission questioned you or not? I did not see your name among the people listed on the Warren Commission Hearings? If it did not ask you to report what you saw that is very regrettable and incomprehensible.
A -- No, the Warren Commission did not question me or ask for my deposition. Yes, if they had questioned me, it would definitely have affected their report. Tom Alyea, WFAA's newsman w/what should have been the scoop of his lifetime, but to his dismay ---->
"The lies," Alyea said. "The lies bother me. The historical record is not accurate."
Speaking of lying, let's return to the tall-tale tandem's exploits that afternoon, and include an Alyea photo. When we take into consideration that in his own personal account of his activities that afternoon, Tom Alyea, spends 99% of his time inside the Texas School Book Depository on the upper floors filming the unfolding action around him, especially upon the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] floor where shell casings and the rifle were found.
There was an instance though, after he witnessed Captain Fritz pull the bolt back on the rifle and a live round came out, that he went down to the first floor to toss his film out the front door, because according to him, the authorities weren't letting him out or any other media in. For time & sequence sake, the rifle was officially found at 1:22PM, so some time after that, Mr. Alyea left to toss his film out the front door to Ron Reiland.
That established, the photo to follow will either mean Roy Truly & Marrion Baker lied about charging up the backstairs before 12:35PM (Alyea's arrival timecamera rollingas he enters the building from the front entrance), Or, the tandem lied about immediately separating upon their exploits upon an otherwise LOCKED roof and their subsequent ride back down to the first floor ---->
Mr. BAKER - We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.
Mr. BELIN - All right. You got off the elevator then?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?
Mr. BAKER - I left Mr. Truly there.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade.
Which lie is it, Roy Truly? Already charging up the backstairs prior to this snapshot at 12:35PM ---->
Or, in spite of Baker's lie about an immediate separation, huddling up and getting your hastily contrived script in order to FRAME an innocent party?
Nevertheless, a lie is a lie no matter how and when the liar(s) spun it.
"The lies," Alyea said. "The lies bother me. The historical record is not accurate."
Above photo courtesy of an exceptional website, authored by an award winning researcher in the JFK research community.
Addendum (A) ---->
Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at me
(B): Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.
How was that again? ----->
sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases.
Chris Davidson Wrote:A better representation of Baker's time from third shot response to the TSBD curb can be attained by a few film syncs.
The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the head shot, until the Hester sync = 21seconds.
Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.
Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his run down the knoll.
Gerda's dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.
There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.
Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to Baker before we see him in Gerda's dual-sync.
Baker's run to the curb equals 4 seconds.
This total = approx 29.8 seconds.
DPD Solo Motorcycle Officer ML Baker's sworn statement/testimony as he recalled the JF KennedySr Assassination and CriticalWounding of JB ConnallyJr, and accompanying events, including his own reaction and activities relative to said events.
07-02-2018, 04:38 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2018, 06:48 PM by Chris Davidson.)
Baker appears in the Hughes film trailing the first blue impala convertible as it makes the turn onto Houston from Main St and travels a short distance before the film cuts.
In the background at extant Z232,the front end of the first blue impala convertible aligns with the last wall hole, plotted from Zapruders LOS. At that point, it has traveled 96.5ft from the Main/Houston St corner. Baker in Hughes is actually trailing the 1st blue impala convertible by approx 5ft. The blue impala is 17.5ft in length. At Z232, Baker is approx 96.25ft - 17.5ft - 5ft = 73.75ft down Houston St.
The average motorcade speed down Houston is 9.3mph At Z232, Baker is 81 frames until extant Z313 (4.42seconds) @ 13.671ft per sec (9.3mph) = 60.42ft At extantZ313, Baker is 134.17ft (73.75 + 60.42ft) down Houston St. Houston St. building corner to building corner = 200ft
At extant Z313, Baker needs to travel 200 - 134.17ft= 65.83ft to hit the corner of Houston and Elm St.
An assumption that he remained on the outside of the motorcade as he traveled to his final parking spot is being made, as I have never heard of him weaving between the motorcade to get to his parking spot.
This assumption puts his Elm St radius travel at a distance of 87.5 ft.
His total distance traveled from extant Z313 = 65.83 + 87.5 = 153.33ft.
153.33ft/13.671ft per sec (9.3mph) = 11.21 seconds
Mr. BELIN - All right. After the [size=12]third shot,[/SIZE] then, what did you do? Mr. BAKER - Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots. Mr. BELIN - What distance did you state? What we did on Friday afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the [size=12]first shot[/SIZE] to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced off to how much? Mr. BAKER - From 180 to 200 feet. Mr. BELIN - That is where you parked the motorcycle?
After a shot at extant z232, Baker would have been approx 214ft from his parking spot. After a shot at extant z313, Baker would have been approx 153.3ft from his parking spot.
hock::