Quote:Hill's WC testimony about his movements is worthless. He conspicuously omits the stop at 12th & Beckley with "a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect," reported at 1:26, rattling off nonsense in its place. Witness statements are easy to manipulate, radio logs much more difficult, and Hill sought to pre-empt discussion of undesirable subject matter by (in 21st century terms) spamming the threads, with eventual burial
And who would that man be?
He's at 12th & Beckley at 1:26 with a TIPPIT WITNESS already in his car...
Look at this map... Why 12th and Beckley?
And do we notice that Hill's route takes him right past 1026 N Beckley, 500 N Beckley, 10th & Patton before going to 12th and Beckley... but as you said... his testimony contradicts these transcripts... and while I agree that statements are easy to manipulate, the TRANSCRIPTS as opposed to the actual dictabelt or tapes can - and were - altered to change the timeline so Tippit occurs 10-12 minutes later.
I'm still working on this but have 1 more thing I'd like you to comment upon...
The 2 men in car #91 who patrol the part of Oak Cliff where Tippit was killed were never called to leave their area... only "downtown units" were asked to report to Elm/Houston.
They are the first patrolmen to call in their availability at 12:30, are ignored, and repeat it
[TABLE="width: 856"] [TR] [TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"][/TD] [TD="class: xl70, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]noise for 3 minutes, 11 seconds on this tape.[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30[/TD] [TD="class: xl67, width: 220, bgcolor: transparent"]1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry)[/TD] [TD="class: xl69, width: 236, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]603 (ambulance)[/TD] [TD="class: xl70, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]603 out.[/TD] [TD="class: xl72, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30[/TD] [TD="class: xl73, width: 220, bgcolor: transparent"]1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry)[/TD] [TD="class: xl74, width: 236, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"][/TD] [TD="class: xl70, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]noise for 34 seconds on this tape.[/TD] [TD="class: xl72, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30[/TD] [TD="class: xl73, width: 220, bgcolor: transparent"]1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry)[/TD] [TD="class: xl75, width: 236, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]Have Parkland stand by.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]91 (Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson)[/TD] [TD="class: xl70, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]91 clear.[/TD] [TD="class: xl72, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30[/TD] [TD="class: xl73, width: 220, bgcolor: transparent"]Dallas 1 (Sheriff J.E. "Bill" Decker)[/TD] [TD="class: xl74, width: 236, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]I am sure it's going to take some time to get your man in there. Pull every one of my men in there.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl68, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD] [TD="class: xl70, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]531, testing: 1 2 3 4.[/TD] [TD="class: xl72, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:30[/TD] [TD="class: xl73, width: 220, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD] [TD="class: xl74, width: 236, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]Dallas 1, repeat, I didn't get all of it. I didn't quite understand all of it.[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
until the EXACT TIME TIPPIT IS KILLED with a 3 minute gap - are we to believe that there was radio silence for 3 minutes in the midst of all this?
Of course not... (it's even worse from 1:26 to 1:32 where once again there is radio silence on Ch 1)
When a unit calls in their # and "CLEAR" they are usually somewhere in their assigned patrol area...
But the fact remains... at 12:30 and again at 1:04 it APPEARS as if #91 is in Oak Cliff...
There is no broadcast to #91 prior to 12:54 instructing them to go anywhere.... so they SHOULD be in OAK CLIFF and therefore
no reason to order TIPPIT into the area at 12:45, or even check if he's there at 12:54...
Unless you are coordinating a meeting of some sort...
#91 is then ordered to an accident at 817 W Davis... 1 mile from 10th and Patton and obviously in the #91 Patrol district.... for they surely wouldn't send a man from the TSBD way out there... right?
Well, not so fast... remember that NELSON was ordered to OAK CLIFF with Tippit... Except at a crucial time when he may have been able to help TIPPIT, he's inexplicably at Elm/Houston...
With 4340 W Davis being a 7 mile trip whereas there were still patrolmen, at the very least #91 who is already out on W Davis, who can go...
I realize not much as been researched but what about NELSON, MENTZEL and COURSON???
[TABLE="width: 454"] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:19[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]87[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:19[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]87[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:19[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]I'm in my car here at Elm and Houston. Do you want me over there?[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:19[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]87, report to 4340 West Davis at the service station for information regarding suspect on this Signal 19 of the President.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]1:19[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]4340[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
::throwbomb::
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Quote:He's at 12th & Beckley at 1:26 with a TIPPIT WITNESS already in his car...
Look at this map... Why 12th and Beckley?
Possibly because it's the location of the sheriff's substation.
Quote:And do we notice that Hill's route takes him right past 1026 N Beckley, 500 N Beckley, 10th & Patton before going to 12th and Beckley... but as you said... his testimony contradicts these transcripts... and while I agree that statements are easy to manipulate, the TRANSCRIPTS as opposed to the actual dictabelt or tapes can - and were - altered to change the timeline so Tippit occurs 10-12 minutes later.
Yes, the times are problematical. Do you have a link to complete audio files?
Quote:I'm still working on this but have 1 more thing I'd like you to comment upon...
The 2 men in car #91 who patrol the part of Oak Cliff where Tippit was killed were never called to leave their area... only "downtown units" were asked to report to Elm/Houston. They are the first patrolmen to call in their availability at 12:30, are ignored, and repeat it
Problem here. CE 1974 does not have these messages. Around 12:30 channel one transmissions were garbled. What transcript are you using?
BTW Mentzel rode alone at this time. Courson was not with him. McBride obtained important information about Mentzel's activities from Tippit's father, described in his rebuttal of the hatchet job Myers fecklessly attempted to inflict on Into the Nightmare. https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kenne...j-d-tippit
I'm still trying to wrap my head around a timeline that works... from the evidence we have the only thing we can tell is what DIDN'T happen based on what they said DID happen...
The Evidence IS the Conspiracy...
DJ
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
09-11-2018, 10:33 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2018, 10:48 AM by Milo Reech.)
Quote:That's a "for sure" on the sub-station? thanks for the info... makes 500 N Beckley and the EL CHICO even more interesting
Yes, still a county office building & sheriff substation. See attachment.
Thanks for the pdf & aerial view. I tried to send a private message, clicked submit message, but nothing shows in the sent folder. Is there a built-in delay?
Update -- never mind -- a matter of changing the account setting.
Murray Jackson is asked why Tippit was out of his area and he replies because Oak Cliff was drained of men and someone needed to cover the area...
If you read thru the transcripts you see that Tippit is the only car Jackson checks up on to insure he is where he was told to go, Oak Cliff in case any emergency arises....
This begs the questions... who back filled in Tippit's now empty area? And why is he the only person checked on to cover all of Oak Cliff when multiple units do so normally?
There are vicinities N S E W that we're drained of men... Yet only Oak Cliff is covered?
And then why is Nelson at Elm n Houston first, then is sent to 4340 Davis, like 7 miles away, when car 91 Mentzel, is already at 817 W. Davis on a call... there is no indication that Mentzel is at the TSBD or even comes that way... have you found any?
So why is the DPD covering for what Tippit was doing?
The Top Ten Records visit is to maybe check on his instructions since Ozzie was not on the bus?
With the 2nd patrol car in the driveway does Tippit stop to talk with them or deal with the pedestrian cause their being at that spot indicates advance knowledge of the location..
Right?
Thx for dealing with all the questions..lol.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
It's easy to confirm that much is missing from CE 1974 (the FBI transcript) --
If one looks at the transcript carefully, and compares it to the actual recorded radio transmissions, the accuracy and completeness of the FBI's July 1964 transcript comes into serious question.
Of the last 144 actual transmissions on belt 4, only 28 (19%) were transcribed by the FBI. The final transcribed transmission on belt 4 occurred between 11:50 and 11:51, and the first transmission transcribed from belt 5 does not actually occur until 12:06 almost 180 transmissions later. It is therefore impossible to accurately establish whether belt 4 ended at 11:50 or 12:06, with the result that the discrepancy between the FBI and the HSCA start/end times cannot be resolved. To further emphasise the inadequacy of the FBI transcript, analysis of the number of actual transmissions and the number of transcribed entries reveals that only 15% of the transmissions on belt 5 (approximately 100 out of 600 transmissions) were transcribed.
No way to proceed with this line of inquiry without audio files, still looking without success despite the proliferation of copies described in the article.
What can be determined is that four DPD officers were already there or soon to arrive when Tippit & Nelson were ordered to "move into Central Oak Cliff area" at 12:45.
The above depiction is by far the clearest I have ever seen as it explains Oswald's path as he was fleeing and the relationship of the DPD cars and the landmarks.
That just shows that persistence can eventually put this whole big jigsaw puzzle together without help from CIA classified records (which we will never see, even if they still exist). Keep up the fascinating and valuable work on this. Thanx.
Milo Reech Wrote:It's easy to confirm that much is missing from CE 1974 (the FBI transcript) --
If one looks at the transcript carefully, and compares it to the actual recorded radio transmissions, the accuracy and completeness of the FBI's July 1964 transcript comes into serious question.
Of the last 144 actual transmissions on belt 4, only 28 (19%) were transcribed by the FBI. The final transcribed transmission on belt 4 occurred between 11:50 and 11:51, and the first transmission transcribed from belt 5 does not actually occur until 12:06 almost 180 transmissions later. It is therefore impossible to accurately establish whether belt 4 ended at 11:50 or 12:06, with the result that the discrepancy between the FBI and the HSCA start/end times cannot be resolved. To further emphasise the inadequacy of the FBI transcript, analysis of the number of actual transmissions and the number of transcribed entries reveals that only 15% of the transmissions on belt 5 (approximately 100 out of 600 transmissions) were transcribed.
No way to proceed with this line of inquiry without audio files, still looking without success despite the proliferation of copies described in the article.
What can be determined is that four DPD officers were already there or soon to arrive when Tippit & Nelson were ordered to "move into Central Oak Cliff area" at 12:45.
Does an hour earlier really tell us much about 12:30 thru 1:30 ??
The FACT that there was a 2nd police car in the driveway EXACTLY at the spot where Tippit stops and the murder occurs, when as we have shown and show below, Oak Cliff was emptied out of DPD personnel and after the Top Ten record call Tippit travels directly to that spot.... one of the problems with CROY's evidence is that HOLAN tells us the 2nd car drove away with both men... CROY claims to have had his own car.... but then again CROY is so full of it it's hard to tell what's right....
Did Westbrook/Croy take the assassin with them to 10th & Patton?
Is VAGANOV worth serious consideration?
What was the extra police shirt doing in the back of Tippit's car?
Quote:What can be determined is that four DPD officers were already there
By "THERE" I assume you mean Oak Cliff....
What was so special about Oak Cliff besides the existence and potential movement about of some of the key conspirators.... El CHICO, Harlendale, Back of 1026 Beckley, Neely, Elsbeth, Ruby, Vaganov, NAGY (lived at 600 Ft Worth)
William Mentzel (out to lunch)
Harry Olsen (on leave)
W. P. Parker ("East Jefferson" 12:41)
J.M. Lewis ("105 Corinth" 12:47)
out to lunch... yet still in car - alone as you said - answering to call sign #91. Nothing indicates he left Oak Cliff
(See transmissions at bottom of post)
Olsen claims to have been working at "the Estate" which may have just been a large plot with a house on it...
Do we think he is ;lying about this?
Mr SPECTER. Where was that estate located? Mr OLSEN. On 8th Street in Dallas. Mr SPECTER. Do you recall the specific address or the cross street on which it was located? Mr OLSEN. It's in the Oak Cliff area, it's approximately two blocks off of Stemmons. Mr SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the police department on the day President Kennedy was in town? Mr OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they needed me to work that day and they said no.
What is LEWIS doing in Oak Cliff? when his patrol area is miles north? 105 Corinth is by E 8th St on the other side of Stemmons (this would be the area OLSEN's Estate would have been)
The Oak Cliff patrol districts are 91 thru 97 (97 is out by the 4340 W Davis call that Nelson #87 was sent on from Elm/Houston)
I have found no transmissions from Patrol area #92, #94 or #96
[TABLE="width: 454"] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:45[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]93 (Ptm. H.M. Ashcraft)[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]I'm 531. Where do you want me to go?[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:45[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: transparent"]Report to the old School Book Depository around the Elm and Houston area.[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 454"] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:47[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]95 (Ptm. M.N. McDonald and T.R. Gregory)[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]95[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:47[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]95[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:47[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]95 (Ptm. M.N. McDonald and Ptm. T.R. Gregory)[/TD] [TD="class: xl68, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]What's going on?[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="class: xl67, width: 80, bgcolor: transparent"]12:47[/TD] [TD="class: xl65, width: 189, bgcolor: transparent"]Dispatcher[/TD] [TD="class: xl69, width: 336, bgcolor: #FFCC99"]Signal 19, involving the President. Suspect: white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches, one hundred sixty-five pounds, believed to have used 30 caliber rifle. Believed to be in the old School Book Depository, Elm and Houston, at this time.[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
Now this seems odd... Nelson (below) was ordered into Oak Cliff yet is at Elm/Houston when asked and then ordered 7 miles away to West Davis...
Meanwhile... The Tippit and Nelson patrol areas are left vacant and basically it is only Tippit, Mentzel, Parker and Lewis (who shouldn't be there at all) in Oak Cliff
except for the 2nd police car which Mrs. HOLAN saw from directly across the street....
Quote:Does an hour earlier really tell us much about 12:30 thru 1:30 ??
Belt five ends at 12:40, no point in speculating on what might be the complete contents of belt six.
Quote:Did Westbrook/Croy take the assassin with them to 10th & Patton?
No, per Clemons two men left on foot in different directions. One took the alley to Crawford. The other took Patton to Jefferson.
Quote:Is VAGANOV worth serious consideration?
Yes, his was the red Ford seen by Benavides, after Benavides arrived at the scene as observed by Guinyard, if he saw one at all.
Quote:Olsen claims to have been working at "the Estate" which may have just been a large plot with a house on it...
Do we think he is lying about this?
I'm certain of it. Harry lied his head off. Specter's WC interrogation was so insipid the only point of interest is who in his entourage carried the paper bag.
