If the Tippit murder were not planned in advance, then why would Oswald carefully mail order BOTH A RIFLE AND A PISTOL?
The rifle and the pistol were bought in identical and parallel processes from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago and Seaport Trading in LA.
The pistol was bored for a different caliber than the bullets so that the bullets could not be matched to the Oswald pistol. And you're maintaining that the Tippit murder was planned on the fly? I just can't see that.
Incredibly, it seems like Senator Dodd (who investigated the weapons dealers involved as early as January, 1963) had both the JFK and the Tippit murders on the drawing boards for 11 months in advance.
It's easy to see why. If Oswald was to be a patsy, then there obviously would not be any evidence for which to arrest him in the JFK hit. So you needed another crime to bust him for.
This need for another crime would have been obvious from the beginning. The fact that a Dallas policeman would be sacrificed tells me all by itself that the Dallas Police did not think of the Tippit murder on the fly. Even if they all hated JFK, they wouldn't target one of their own.
If they were planning it on the fly, they would have targeted a civilian. Why not? There were plenty of civilians around 10th and Patton. And deal civilians like dead Dallas policemen TELL NO TALES!
James Lateer Wrote:Mr. Reech---In the picture in pasted on my prior reply, it looks like Oswald was walking or traveling north on Beckley Avenue which eventually led him to a block or two west of the Texas Theater. He had to turn right and east to the Texas Theater from his North Beckley path.
The murder scene of Tippit was 10th and Patton which was about three blocks to the West of Oswald's path which was heading LHO north on Beckley going toward the Texas Theater.
Why would Oswald go west three blocks to the murder scene of Tippit, and then go the same three blocks back to North Beckley and go north again a few blocks and finally turn east toward the Texas Theater?
If Oswald's path was straight North along Beckley toward the Texas Theater, it looks like the murder of Tippit was deliberately planned THREE BLOCKS WEST OF NORTH BECKLEY so it could happen NEAR TO OSWALD'S PATH, yet far enough west of his flight path so as to assure Oswald did not actually pass near to the Tippit murder.
(When I say "north", it might be just turned around since I assumed the top of the picture was north. It was more likely south, with the Tippit murder to the east of Beckley).
In other words, Tippit was murdered close enough to allege that Oswald did it, yet three blocks west of his flight path so Oswald didn't actually encounter Tippit or the "witnesses" (not!!).
The only rational explanation I can see is that Oswald was headed as planned to the Texas Theater along North Beckley. The Tippit murder was not on his path. So it was carried out NOT IN THE PRESENCE OF OSWALD.
If I'm wrong about this, please set me straight.
James Lateer
The aerial shows Hill's route, not Oswald's.
You are right -- LHO was not present at Tippit's murder.
James Lateer Wrote:If the Tippit murder were not planned in advance, then why would Oswald carefully mail order BOTH A RIFLE AND A PISTOL?
The rifle and the pistol were bought in identical and parallel processes from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago and Seaport Trading in LA.
The pistol was bored for a different caliber than the bullets so that the bullets could not be matched to the Oswald pistol. And you're maintaining that the Tippit murder was planned on the fly? I just can't see that.
Incredibly, it seems like Senator Dodd (who investigated the weapons dealers involved as early as January, 1963) had both the JFK and the Tippit murders on the drawing boards for 11 months in advance.
It's easy to see why. If Oswald was to be a patsy, then there obviously would not be any evidence for which to arrest him in the JFK hit. So you needed another crime to bust him for.
This need for another crime would have been obvious from the beginning. The fact that a Dallas policeman would be sacrificed tells me all by itself that the Dallas Police did not think of the Tippit murder on the fly. Even if they all hated JFK, they wouldn't target one of their own.
If they were planning it on the fly, they would have targeted a civilian. Why not? There were plenty of civilians around 10th and Patton. And deal civilians like dead Dallas policemen TELL NO TALES!
James Lateer
Tippit was killed with an automatic. As explained in the essay that is the subject of this thread, the official murder weapon is a forensic failure.
If DPD was so hot & bothered by Tippit's murder, why didn't Leavelle conduct a competent investigation, instead of cooking a case against LHO at Fritz's behest?
If the route in the picture were Hill's route, it doesn't matter. If Oswald travelled (walked?) from Dealey Plaza to his rooming house and thence to the Texas Theater, he would have gone South on North Beckley till he reached only two blocks from 12th and Beckley. Then he turned right onto what looks to be Tenth Street and went two blocks along that street on which the Texas Theater.
Somebody said, as indicated on the photo...
"I'm at 12th and Beckley. Have a man in a car with me who can identify the suspect if anybody gets him."
It looks like someone was planted at 12th and Beckley (in advance) to i.d. Oswald as the JFK killer. I think you mentioned that nobody could have gotten such an id at that time. This was obviously a planted conspirator-witness.
Since the direct route in the picture which led from Dealey Plaza past the Oswald rooming house on to 10th and Beckley and then turning right to the Texas Theater, then Oswald would have no reason to turn left three blocks to go to 10th and Patton.
And the planted witness was on North Beckley. So it was assumed that Oswald would go straight from Dealey Plaza, to his rooming house, then South (?) on North Beckley to 10th and Beckley then right two blocks to the Texas Theater. Ruby's friend Tommy Rowe was posted along that route at the bookstore where Oswald stopped in. Also the man with the false claim of identifying Oswald was also on that route.
If Tommy Rowe went to Ruby's apartment after the apprehension of Oswald, we know that three or four people including journalists who were there at that time in the apartment were eventually murdered, apparently by the FBI/CIA/Plotters. So Rowe must have said something there that was inconsistent with the fake information and thus the people who talked with him had to be silenced.
I can't see any reason why Oswald would have turned left three blocks to 10th and Patton where Tippit was shot if the plan was to go to the rooming house and then to the Theater.
The fact that Tippit was shot with an automatic didn't matter. The only thing that mattered was Oswald's pistol which he got form Seaport Trading (allegedly). That 38 cal. pistol from Seaport Trading was impossible to id and connect to ANY bullets because of the boring-out of the barrel. Why was Oswald's pistol a NON-TRACEABLE TYPE OF PISTOL? Because it was planned all along to shoot Tippit, but not with Oswald's pistol. Oswald's pistol could still be blamed (as it indeed was).
It didn't matter what kind of pistol shot Tippit since Oswald's pistol couldn't be matched to anything.
All of the above looks like an open and shut case regarding the pre-planned nature of the Tippit shooting.
The murder of Tippit was apparently planned by people which included some few high-up Dallas policemen. But the cops on the Tippit murder scene were not likely to have had advance knowledge of the plan.
The only other fact that could fit it here. Jack Ruby was at Parkland Hospital an 1:00 pm on 11-22-63 when JFK was declared dead. Ruby could then have time to travel to the murder scene of Tippit and kill him just as he would eventually kill LHO.
Some of the descriptions of the Tippit killer sound (to me) a lot like Jack Ruby. And it would have fit the facts, since Ruby knew Tippit so he would have been able to shoot the right cop. This would be consistent with limiting the number of people "in the know" so as to reduce the chances of an operative screwing up or spilling the beans. It would also explain the fact that Ruby was quickly at the DPD headquarters where he stalked LHO non-stop for the entire weekend of 11-22-63 to 11-24-63.
That could explain the unexplained delay between the Tippit shooting and the apprehension of Oswald.
The more I ponder the above facts, the more it looks like to me that Oswald would be captured alive so he could be put on trial and play out the drama at the trial of being a Communist (like the guy who torched the Reichstag).
This is why Oswald made such a deal of calling John Abt, the ACLU (and Communist?) attorney. LHO was apparently assured that he would live and be sent to prison as an official Communist.
But at the Dallas Police headquarters, he must have been NOT UP TO THE TASK OF PLAY-ACTING. Alternatively, Ruby could have decided to kill Oswald based on his knowledge, as a Jewish person, that Nazis had sponsored Oswald.
If the Jewish community had decided not to keep their silence about the role of the Nazis, then at that point Oswald had to be silenced.
David Josephs Wrote:Do you think they just shifted the timing of these calls? I mean, if POSTAL calls in at 1:43... it takes a hurried shooter 35 minutes to go 1/2 mile... ???
DJ, please try this on for size and let me know if it fits.
Postal called in to report a ticket theft by brown-shirted patsy LHO, who was not a fugitive from the Tippit murder, where he never appeared. This is the same LHO who purchased popcorn from Burroughs at 1:15, also seen by Brewer at the shoe store around 1:30.
After moving about TT looking for and failing to find his contact, LHO smelled a rat and exited the theater. The strident police presence on the street startled him into turning around and re-entering TT. Whether Brewer pursued him as he described to WC or was hastened along by Rowe as described by Armstrong makes no difference.
So far nothing fatal to this idea has shown up in the various documents I've looked at, but before digging in deep I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.
Mr. Reech: I own quite a few JFK assassination books, but I don't recall any rendition of the facts involved in the Flight of Oswald that can rival your depth of knowledge.
Maybe you are going to write your stuff up for publication (IMHO you should, it's not that hard with the right publisher). But failing that, can you give me the name of a book or two which has the best account of the Flight of Oswald?
I am looking at my copy of The Lee Harvey Oswald Files by Flip De Mey but it doesn't seem to have a separate chapter about the Flight of Oswald and the Tippit murder. His book was a 2016 book so it should be up-to-date.
Readers need to have all this in one convenient place.
David Josephs Wrote:Do you think they just shifted the timing of these calls? I mean, if POSTAL calls in at 1:43... it takes a hurried shooter 35 minutes to go 1/2 mile... ???
DJ, please try this on for size and let me know if it fits.
Postal called in to report a ticket theft by brown-shirted patsy LHO, who was not a fugitive from the Tippit murder, where he never appeared. This is the same LHO who purchased popcorn from Burroughs at 1:15, also seen by Brewer at the shoe store around 1:30.
After moving about TT looking for and failing to find his contact, LHO smelled a rat and exited the theater. The strident police presence on the street startled him into turning around and re-entering TT. Whether Brewer pursued him as he described to WC or was hastened along by Rowe as described by Armstrong makes no difference.
So far nothing fatal to this idea has shown up in the various documents I've looked at, but before digging in deep I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.
Ticket theft? hmmmm
I agree he was not at the Tippit scene but...
You really think POSTAL calls the police over a $.35 ticket?
Her call was prompted by BREWER... supposedly they guy he was watching snuck-in but had been acting strange prior...
Oswald was at the theater about the same time as the shooting...
And Tommy Rowe was close friends with Jack Ruby...
I don't think we can take the timing from the DPD logs to be accurate...
LHO leaving the theater has no supporting evidence... but going up to the concession area a couple times does...
Seen this?
As previously mentioned Jones Harris, a long time assassination investigator, arrived in Dallas the day after the assassination. He interviewed Julia Postal in the office of the manager of the Texas Theater. Harris asked her, when she saw (HARVEY) Oswald being led out of the theater by the police, if she had sold him a ticket. Postal immediately burst into tears. Harris walked out of the office and returned a short time later. When Harris asked again if she sold (HARVEY) Oswald a ticket she again burst into tears. Butch Burroughs, interviewed by Texas researcher Jim Marrs, said that Julia Postal knows that she sold (HARVEY) Oswald a ticket. Burroughs collected movie tickets when patrons entered the theater. When Burroughs sold HARVEY Oswald popcorn, a few minutes after he entered the theater, he must have recognized (HARVEY) Oswald as a paying customer. Otherwise, Burroughs would have asked him if he bought a ticket.[/FONT]
I believe a second man entered well after the first and may have ducked in on purpose to get caught... this person goes to the Balcony and is ultimately escorted out the back door of the theater...
I also believe Julia knew she was wrong and the police had now taken the man who had paid around 1pm...
You think anyone could sneak past her?
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
15-12-2018, 02:16 PM (This post was last modified: 15-12-2018, 03:13 PM by Milo Reech.)
David Josephs Wrote:
Milo Reech Wrote:
David Josephs Wrote:Do you think they just shifted the timing of these calls? I mean, if POSTAL calls in at 1:43... it takes a hurried shooter 35 minutes to go 1/2 mile... ???
DJ, please try this on for size and let me know if it fits.
Postal called in to report a ticket theft by brown-shirted patsy LHO, who was not a fugitive from the Tippit murder, where he never appeared. This is the same LHO who purchased popcorn from Burroughs at 1:15, also seen by Brewer at the shoe store around 1:30.
After moving about TT looking for and failing to find his contact, LHO smelled a rat and exited the theater. The strident police presence on the street startled him into turning around and re-entering TT. Whether Brewer pursued him as he described to WC or was hastened along by Rowe as described by Armstrong makes no difference.
So far nothing fatal to this idea has shown up in the various documents I've looked at, but before digging in deep I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.
Ticket theft? hmmmm
I agree he was not at the Tippit scene but...
You really think POSTAL calls the police over a $.35 ticket?
Her call was prompted by BREWER... supposedly they guy he was watching snuck-in but had been acting strange prior...
Oswald was at the theater about the same time as the shooting...
And Tommy Rowe was close friends with Jack Ruby...
I don't think we can take the timing from the DPD logs to be accurate...
LHO leaving the theater has no supporting evidence... but going up to the concession area a couple times does...
Seen this?
[FONT=&]As previously mentioned Jones Harris, a long time assassination investigator, arrived in Dallas the day after the assassination. He interviewed Julia Postal in the office of the manager of the Texas Theater. Harris asked her, when she saw (HARVEY) Oswald being led out of the theater by the police, if she had sold him a ticket. Postal immediately burst into tears. Harris walked out of the office and returned a short time later. When Harris asked again if she sold (HARVEY) Oswald a ticket she again burst into tears. Butch Burroughs, interviewed by Texas researcher Jim Marrs, said that Julia Postal knows that she sold (HARVEY) Oswald a ticket. Burroughs collected movie tickets when patrons entered the theater. When Burroughs sold HARVEY Oswald popcorn, a few minutes after he entered the theater, he must have recognized (HARVEY) Oswald as a paying customer. Otherwise, Burroughs would have asked him if he bought a ticket.[/FONT]
I believe a second man entered well after the first and may have ducked in on purpose to get caught... this person goes to the Balcony and is ultimately escorted out the back door of the theater...
I also believe Julia knew she was wrong and the police had now taken the man who had paid around 1pm...
You think anyone could sneak past her?
Sneak past her? I don't think so, but what I'm suggesting is brown-shirted LHO neither snuck out nor back in, simply left and returned, not required to purchase a ticket on re-entry since he had already done so.
Postal stated this man was wearing a brown shirt. The fugitive was not unless he donned one on the way after ditching the Eisenhower jacket. It begs the question of how did the fugitive enter the theater? Maybe he bought a ticket. Sounds facetious, but Postal is lying about something.
Brewer's story is very shaky. He's one remove from Ruby two ways. One is the Rowe connection, two is Kathy Kay, who lived nearby his apartment, with whom he was close friends.
Agreed, the timings from the DPD logs are not accurate which is why I seldom use them except as references. The only definite time in the JDT murder sequence is the scheduled 1:12 bus stop at East Jefferson. Markham came under intense pressure and sounds a little screwy at times, but she was capable of catching a bus. WC knew this was a problem and WR followed Barrett's lead in using a three minute window to shift the time to 1:15, but Barrett's report contained the correct information.
Nobody hopes "to catch a bus at about 1:15" that is scheduled to arrive "at about 1:12" unless running late, in which case she would not have lingered around Patton & 10th waiting for something to happen. Besides, she left the Washateria on time for a 1:12 bus.
James Lateer Wrote:Mr. Reech: I own quite a few JFK assassination books, but I don't recall any rendition of the facts involved in the Flight of Oswald that can rival your depth of knowledge.
Maybe you are going to write your stuff up for publication (IMHO you should, it's not that hard with the right publisher). But failing that, can you give me the name of a book or two which has the best account of the Flight of Oswald?
I am looking at my copy of The Lee Harvey Oswald Files by Flip De Mey but it doesn't seem to have a separate chapter about the Flight of Oswald and the Tippit murder. His book was a 2016 book so it should be up-to-date.
Readers need to have all this in one convenient place.
James Lateer
I cannot give you "the name of a book or two which has the best account of the Flight of Oswald." The few with which I'm familiar suffer from an ecumenical approach, culling choice bits & pieces from the usual expansive cast of witnesses, occasionally throwing a nosegay in the direction of the Nashes' "other witnesses," while failing to reckon with contradictory elements.
Virtually all my research has been conducted using on-line resources, but retracing steps is impossible and citing links futile. Many are now broken. One of the best would have been lost entirely were it not for the wayback machine, brilliant insights, Rx for complacent thinking about what actually happened. For example:
Quote:This is the reason I believe that so *many* witnesses were required on 10th St.--not to ID a shooter, but to ID a weapon...
Mr. Reech:
Whether you know it or not, your work is lighting up many lightbulbs in re the JFK assassination IMO.
In light of your research, we can no longer look at Oswald as merely a dumb patsy who was kept in the dark or lied to by the plotters. He was obviously inside the plot as much as were the Paines, Jack Ruby, De Mohrenschildt, etc.
Since he apparently lingered for 35 minutes inside the Texas Theater awaiting arrest, he was obviously plugged into the timeline as were all the others.
Since the key person on the flight path of Oswald was Ruby's friend Tommy Rowe, then the role of Ruby is tremendously enhanced.
Ruby was (1) at the office of H L Hunt just prior to the hit, (2) in front of the TSBD when the shooting occurred (3) at Parkland Hospital when JFK was declared dead and (4) at the Dallas Police Department on the afternoon of 11-22-63. One can only conclude that Ruby was likely at the murder scene of Tippit (since he knew Tippit) if the timing allowed for it. He might have even been the murderer of Tippit.
If Oswald was an open member of the plot, then the plan must have been for Oswald to be another Sirhan Sirhan or Timothy McVeigh. He would be tried and sent to prison as a proven Communist. This was close together in weeks with the October, 1963 attempt by Senator James O. Eastland to outlaw the entire Civil Rights Movement as being Communist. Eastland came only one judicial vote away from succeeding as was brilliantly discovered by Dr. Jeffry Caufield. If an open and avowed Communist were tried and sentenced for the JFK murder, then Eastland's chances of success would have been greatly enhanced.
If Ruby was (possibly) the quarterback of the timing of the various plot events from the TBSD to Parkland Hospital to the Dallas jail, then Ruby's state of mind looms even larger. My analysis has concluded that Ruby was motivated most of all by his intense Jewish faith, not his alleged mafia connections. (But then there WAS such a thing as the Jewish Mafia). General Curtis Le May had close ties with the Jewish Mafia, of which most people have never been made aware. Le May had an important connection to Johnny Roselli and his friend Charles Baron of Chicago and Las Vegas who was close to both Roselli and Le May.
In his memoir, FBI agent James Hosty claims that the FBI got a phone call saying that a "committee" had decided that Oswald would be killed. IMO, if it were called a "committee", then it would actually be a "committee". The only committee that I know of as a possibility was the American Jewish Committee. The only other possibility was an informal committee led by Yale Law School dean Eugene Rostow who called LBJ about the Warren Commission on 11-22-63.
The bagman for the JFK assassination hush money and for money for related bribery was General Julius Klein. Klein was both the West German "Shadow Ambassador", worked with the government of Israel and was former president of the US "Jewish War Veterans" association. Some prominent Jewish persons (like Klein) cashed in on their Jewish activism by working all too closely with West Germany (and questionable ex-Nazis). We know that there is evidence that Israel had used Otto Skorzeny as an agent.
Of course, Michael Collins Piper wrote "Final Judgment" which more or less blames the Israeli Mossad for the JFK assassination. (I don't buy hardly any of the suggestions of Piper, however).
It appears that when Oswald was being interrogated inside the Dallas Police Headquarters, he was, in effect, auditioning for the role of "Sirhan Sirhan" in play-acting a trial and conviction. He apparently failed the audition. Or the evidence was not lining up so as to allow it.
The other (strong) possibility was that Ruby was acting entirely as Jewish activist operative in an attempt to abort the JFK assassination. He could have just been stalking Oswald, trying to foil the plot. We know that the Mossad had just kidnapped Eichmann in 1961, so it's unlikely that they would be approving of the assassination of JFK by Germans and/or Nazis.
The filming of the assassination by Abraham Zapruder is in the same questionable category as the role of Ruby as a Jewish patriot might be. Was Zapruder's effort (including climbing up on the concrete pedestal) just a lucky coincidence? One has to consider how quickly the Zapruder film was "confiscated" and distributed very widely, including a copy going to billionaire H L Hunt.
Ruby consistently stated that he was terrified of being murdered by "anti-Semites" and was also worried for his family based on the same reasoning. It seems more likely that Ruby was trying to abort the assassination, or that he had infiltrated the plot as a double agent for the Jewish establishment which of course was very powerful then as it is today. Stanley Marcus, owner of Niemann-Marcus in Dallas was very influential in Dallas at the time and he was very much a Jewish activist worldwide.
I have discovered the excellent series by John Armstrong on the Tippit murder and the surrounding chain of events. The archive which you suggested looks pretty long. I will try and work this into my ambitious reading schedule.
