11-09-2009, 08:19 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2009, 08:24 AM by Bernice Moore.)
mARK Myra :YES, ON THE ef HE APPEARED TO go over ......BUT THEN AND IT IS STILL THERE WITHIN A THREAD HE CAME BACK AFTER REVIEWING ETC.....TO CLARIFY THAT WHAT HE HAS RESEARCHED AND WRITTEN STANDS FIRM......B
BUG A BOO HAS SENT TWO EMAILS WE SHALL SEE IF...WE OBTAIN ANYTHING NEW ON ROBERTS...B:
Mark Stapleton Wrote:Yes Adele. I firmly believe LBJ was deeply involved in the plan to murder JFK. Had JFK not been killed, LBJ would have ended up in the stripey hole---where he belonged.
He certainly did a sterling job covering up for the killers. And he hated Jack and Bobby Kennedy, that is well known.
I haven't read Busby's book, but it looks like a load of rubbish. LBJ was desperate to get Jack to Texas.
I share the perception that the timing of President Kennedy's murder was most advantageous to LBJ, too advantageous to be coincidental.
The Mark Baker affair had reached the boiling point. He had already been forced to resign. His corrupt mug was on the cover of Life magazine. And congressional hearings about him were taking place on November 22, 1963. Whatever implicated Baker (aka "Little Lyndon") would also implicate LBJ, his political sponsor. The congressional hearings ceased early in the day when the news from Dallas came out, and they were never reconvened. I doubt the LBJ would have kept his job for another week if he had not stepped over JFK's body onto Air Force One.
Not to mention the fact that the Billie Sol Estes/LBJ scandal, featuring LBJ's personal hit man Mac Wallace, was waiting in the wings. Not to mention that additional fact that Kennedy had just told his secretary Evelyn Lincoln that LBJ would not be his running mate in 1964.
No way LBJ's hands are clean in the assassination. No way.
It was either, as Mark indicated, become President of the United States or go to prison. I'm thinking LBJ saw the oval office as the better option.
Get a load of the smile and wink between Albert Thomas and PRESIDENT Johnson on air force one returning from Dallas as the blood dries on Jackie's dress.
Myra Bronstein Wrote:Get a load of the smile and wink between Albert Thomas and PRESIDENT Johnson on air force one returning from Dallas as the blood dries on Jackie's dress.
"In early April, 1963, the date for Kennedy's trip to Texas was set for November 21st. The occasion was an appreciation dinner in Houston for Kennedy's friend, Texas Congressman Albert Thomas."
So Albert Thomas was (at least part of) the bait to get President Kennedy to Dallas to (wink) attend his appreciation dinner.
11-09-2009, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2009, 11:52 AM by Helen Reyes.)
In E Howard Hunt's deathbed confession to his son St. John he claims the Florida trip was the original venue. It was cancelled because an FBI or some kind of informant got wind of it from some mafia or anti-Castro contacts and spilled the beans.
I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on that phrase used to keep the SS agents away from JFK in Dallas. "Ivy League charlatans" hanging like monkeys from the rear fender... Mr. Boring doesn't exactly sound eloquent in the quotes from him posted in this thread. I rather suspect he was given the phrase to repeat. Was this supposed to mean something special to someone?
Did it mean that JFK was battle-hardened from combat in WWII and didn't need a bunch of college freshman hanging around sucking up his glory?
Or did it mean something more literal about Yale, Harvard and the old Bostonians who so hated JFK and his bootlegging father? The sort of people who still call the airport Idlewild...
Before the echoes of coordinated gunfire had faded from Dealey Plaza, JFK was being patsied in his own murder.
Research, including multiple interviews of primary sources, conducted in the main by Vince Palamara demonstrates convincingly that the president seldom if ever attempted to interfere with SS procedures.
JFK did not order agents off his car on 11/22/63. He did not strip his own security. Ever.
You may recall his poignant assessment offered near the end: "There was a problem, but the Secret Service took care of it."
I have gone so far as to speculate that the so-called threats in Miami and Chicago were designed not to increase tensions, but to ease them. In terms of the latter: With the arrest of Thomas Arthur Vallee (a veritable LHO clone) and the reported flight of a hit team armed with rifles, a plausible case could have been made for the elimination of a conspiracy which, in its design, conformed to the outlines of long-rumored operations.
Thus, the Secret Service "took care of" the sniper team-plus-patsy conspiracy about which warnings had been issued (independently or otherwise by Messrs. Nagell and Oswald, perhaps), and the president and his guards could afford to relax -- at least a little.
The Chicago plot also stands as one of the many doppelganger gambits (two Oswalds, two brains, two autopsies, etc.) that permeate Kennedy assassination discoveries and serve to confuse investigators and ultimately insulate the guilty.
A tale for another campfire: I can argue that two mini-motorcades were utilized to confuse the perceptions of Parisian eye witnesses on the night Diana was killed.
Helen Reyes Wrote:I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on that phrase used to keep the SS agents away from JFK in Dallas. "Ivy League charlatans" hanging like monkeys from the rear fender... Mr. Boring doesn't exactly sound eloquent in the quotes from him posted in this thread. I rather suspect he was given the phrase to repeat. Was this supposed to mean something special to someone?
Did it mean that JFK was battle-hardened from combat in WWII and didn't need a bunch of college freshman hanging around sucking up his glory?
Or did it mean something more literal about Yale, Harvard and the old Bostonians who so hated JFK and his bootlegging father? The sort of people who still call the airport Idlewild...
You've a keen eye for the telling detail, Helen; and have touched upon a phrase that's puzzled me for years, not the least because none of the SS were drawn from such exalted backgrounds - quite the reverse.
So, given that the phrase rather obviously invokes the CIA, I suspect you're notion that Boring was given the phrase to repeat as some of private joke - here's what happens to those who don't take the Agency seriously, that sort of thing - is almost certainly spot on.
Secret Service and Infrastructure - by Vincent PalamaraBREAKDOWN OF SECRET SERVICEHIERARCHY and INFRASTRUCTURECompiled by Vince Palamara Author of"The Third Alternative -- Survivor's Guilt: The Secret Service and the JFK Murder" mailto:vincebethel@yahoo.com AppendixPart One: Breakdown of Secret Service Hierarchy - InfrastructureThe Top Treasury Officials:1) C. DOUGLAS DILLON Sec of the Treasury:on a Cabinet plane bound for Japan via Hawaii with *2) ASST. SEC. ROBERT A. WALLACE with Rowley at a luncheon in D.C.; denied dead agent reports;3) ACTING SEC. G. d'ANDELOT BELIN stepped in in Dillon's absence 1963-1964 (related to David?);4) [UNDERSEC. HENRY "JOE" H. FOWLER replaced Dillon in Jan. 1965]The Press Secretaries:1) *PRESS SECRETARY PIERRE SALINGER code book missing from plane; only missed "two or three" trips (almost definitely only one: Texas); extremely knowledgable about motorcade planning/ security- worked with Secret Service on all prior advance work... except for the Texas trip.2) ASST. PRESS SEC. (#2) ANDREW HATCHER in D.C. inactive.3) ASST. PRESS SEC. (#3) MALCOLM KILDUFF first trip on his own: official debut;essentially a non-player out of the loop.The Chief's Office:1) CHIEF JAMES J. ROWLEY with Wallace^2) DEPUTY CHIEF PAUL J. PATERNI member of OSS during WWII- worked with James Angleton and Ray Rocca (liaison to WC); involved in limousine inspection with Boring, beating Rowley and Kellerman---and the FBI--- to the punch (skull particles, bullet fragments, vehicle damage/ wind- shield); involved in LHO income tax check investigation right after assassination; checked on CIA connections of suspects Mosley and Homer Echevarria for the Chicago field office- matter was sum- marily dropped by a call from headquarters telling the field office agents who spoke to Paterni to send all memos, files, and notebooks to D.C. and not to discuss the case with anyone!; Thomas Kelley- liaison to WC: assigned by Paterni to go to Dallas and speak to LHO [5H67; 7H354,403;13H65]3) DEPUTY CHIEF EDWARD WILDY totally out of the loop.The Top Three Agents of the White House Detail (The SAIC's Office):1) SAIC GERALD A. BEHN in D.C. inactive: first full vacation in three years under JFK.2) ASAIC (#2) FLOYD M. BORING in D.C. at home but IN CHARGE OF PLANNING THE TEXAS TRIP [Bishop, 1988 edition, p. 558; Truman Library Oral History, p.63- on all the advance work...assigned to all the advance work; interviews with Sam Kinney and Floyd Boring 1993-1994]; involved in limo inspection with Paterni, Trade Mart decision, PRS checks, giving Lawson the Dallas assignment, etc..3) ASAIC (#3) ROY H. KELLERMAN First major trip on his own in a supervisory capacity without either Behn OR Boring.The WHD Advance Agents:1) WINSTON G. LAWSON (LEAD CAR) WHD advance agent (and former CIC agent---still with the Former Intelligence Officers Association!): only did advance work for a short time before Dallas.2) DAVID B. GRANT (TRADE MART) Lawson's oft-forgotten partner from 11/13-11/22/63; physically joined Lawson in Dallas 11/18/63 from Florida trip (manned by ASAIC Boring in place of Behn); Boring's right hand man for Chicago, Florida, and Texas advances.The Democratic National Committee Advance Men:1) JERRY BRUNO- CHIEF DNC ADVANCE MAN: early organizer but not in Dallas---adamnatly against Trade Mart/ choice of route (out of the loop).2) MARTY UNDERWOOD- DNC ADVANCE MAN: for Houston and Austin---adamantly against choice of route. Heard rumors of impending assassination---received confirmation of plot from CIA Officer Win Scott shortly after assassination (out of the loop)!3) JACK PUTERBAUGH- DNC ADVANCE MAN for Dallas: IN PILOT CAR WITH LT. COL GEORGE WHITMEYER- taught Army Intel- ligence, not originally scheduled to be in motorcade.As for Puterbaugh himself, he denied any involvemen tin the Tade mart decision he was subsequently "blamed" for. He is often blamed for the motorcade route change, as well...The Shift Leaders of the WHD (SAIC Assistants):1) ATSAIC EMORY P. ROBERTS in command of FOLLOW-UP CAR in Dallas: order[..] agent Henry J. Rybka back from rear of limo at Love Field, orders agents not to move after first shot on Elm Street, recalls agent John Ready during/ shortly after one of the head shots. Usurps Kellerman's authority at Parkland Hospital [dies of unknown causes in the late '60's].2) ATSAIC STEWART G. STOUT, JR.- stationed at the Trade Mart (out of the loop).3) ATSAIC ARTHUR L. GODFREY- stationed in Austin (also out of the loop).The V.P./ LBJ Detail:1) SAIC OF LBJ DETAIL H. STUART KNIGHT- in D.C. inactive: transfer to become effective 11/25/63 (out of the loop).2) ASAIC (#2) RUFUS W. YOUNGBLOOD- LBJ's car: listens to walkie-talkie with LBJ.Miscellaneous:1) PRS AGENT GLENN A. BENNETT- temporarily assigned to WHD: why did he ride in the follow-up car (he was an administrator)? 2) WILLIAM R. GREER- LIMO: slows limo, looks back at JFK twice, disobeys Kellerman, etc.3) JOHN D. READY- neutralized by Roberts.4) CLINTON J. HILL (ASSIGNED TO JACKIE)- disobeys Boring and Roberts by riding on rear of limo four times before Elm St. AND by lunging for rear of limo ON Elm Street.Part Two: Foreign and Domestic Trips Involving Motorcades 1961 - 1963: Normal Security in Comparison to Dallas1) agents on or near limo in Dealey Plaza and near Elm Street before or during shooting (up to/ inc. 11/18/63; Boring tells agents not to mount rear of limo between 11/19 and 11/21, according to Clint Hill)- blamed on JFK!2) motorcycles- from 18 flanking units down to a measely 4 non-flanking units (11/18-11/22 Fort Worth; according to DPD, this occure at the last minute: morning of 11/22+ meeting of 11/21 via SS/ Grant)- blamed on JFK!3) The Secret Service was knowledgable about prior or existing threats of 1 1/2 [Chicago], 11/9 [Milteer/ Miami], and 11/18 [Tampa/ Miami]: Boring, Grant, Bolden, Martineau, Kinney, etc. Remember PRS agent Bennett's mysterious placement in follow-up car on 11/22/63;4) Protective Research Section (PRS): ZERO threats found for Dallas trip, despite three known checks, Stevenson incident, Wanted for Treason photos, and warnings to JFK: Senator William Fulbright, DNC advanceman Marty Underwood, San Antonio Congressman Henry Gonzalez, etc.5) Deleted squad car (meeting of 11/21 between DPD and Secret Service/ Grant)6) Motorcade route: two dangerous turns (90 and 120 degrees) involving slow speeds in a warehouse district (TSBD)- changed between 11/18 and 11/19 in spite of at least two better/ alternate routes; driver- no independent knowledge: had to follow the lead car.7) Publication of route- by (and denied by) the Secret Service---accomplished with the help of Betty Forsling Harris, Bill Moyers, and "the agent in charge of the Dallas trip"!8) Vehicles were out of original, numerical order- changed 11/22 at Love Field.9) Media (press busses), photographers (always in front- cancelled at the last minute at Love Field), Cecil Stoughton ( rode near rear of limo/ in follow-up car July to November 21, 1963), Godfrey McHugh, and Ted Clifton- moved away from JFK/ limousine, against prior protocol for motorcades. DMN photographer Tom Dillard. While confirming this last minute cancellation, said this brought the press/ photographers "totally out of the picture"!10) Omissions: Behn, Salinger (Hatcher), Knight, Bruno [Rowley, Dillon]11) Trade Mart (VS. WOMEN'S BUILDING)- determined speed of cars, motorcade route choices, and security of building---Secret Service had a hand in this whole affair.12) Sheriff Bill Decker (lead car)- order 11/22 not to participate...via a call from D.C.?13) Overpass was crowded with people 11/22 in Dealey Plaza, against protocol.14) Windows not watched 11/22, despite Lawson's "usual instructions" to do so;15) ATSAIC Roberts: recall of SA Rybka at Love Field; recall of SA Ready in the Plaza (SA Hill delay); order not to move; usurps Kellerman power at Parkland/ switch of allegiance.16) Ambulances on standby- gone including "epileptic seizure" incident 12:25 ---five minutes before murder of JFK. Rike said his ambulance was called to the Dealey Plaza area on several false alarms several days and weeks before 11/22/63!17) No bubbletop-a protective device (shield JFK via sun glare,possible de- flection, psychological deterrent)---often on car in partial form, as well (just the rear piece, for example). Strange, multiple responsibility [Harris, Lawson, Kellerman, Sorrels, O'Donnell, etc.]; ultimately, blamed on JFK (although it was Kinney's sole/ regretted decision)!18) JFK and LBJ: in same city in slow, open vehicles in close proximity to each other --- unique and quite a "no-no";19) Umbrella man- presence/ actions not noted about, written or oral (cause for delay, confusion? Signal?). SS manual states that this is one of many things to watch for!20) Special ordinance of 11/18 with DPD: permitted action against unruly per- sons becoming involved with peaceful picketing---was this a loophole designed to give plotters/ SS/ DPD some flexiblity to do certain things, and not to do other things, regarding security?21) Greer: slows limo, 2 looks back, disobeys Kellerman; leads race to Parkland (despite contradictory radio transmissions of SS).22) Marina in captivity of SS.23) Autopsy related: body, x-rays, photos, skull fragments, bullet fragments ---SS firmly in control of these crucial items of evidence.24) CE399: bullet in SS possession.25) Limo: in SS possession---soon after was rebuilt, destroying and moving crime scene and evidence.26) "dead" agent---many media outlets reported this as fact, at different times and in different ways (inc. location).27) "SS" agents---phoney or REAL agents in the plaza.28) drinking incident 11/21-11/22: inc. four agents who rode in the follow-up car: Hill, Ready, Bennett, and Landis!Part Three: Evidence of Conspiracy-- Who In the Agency Knows of the Plot And Who Was Involved in ItMAURICE G. MARTINEAUABRAHAM W. BOLDEN, SR.SAMUEL A. KINNEYROY H. KELLERMANWILLIAM R. GREERJOHN NORRISFORREST V. SORRELS---shot or shots came from front)PAUL E. LANDIS---shot or shots came from front)CLINTON J. HILL---right rear of JFK's skull missing, lying in rear of limo)THOMAS "LEM" JOHNS---shot or shots came from grassy knoll)
FROM : ATSAIC Emory P. Roberts, The White House Detail.
U. S. Secret Service
November 29, 1963.
SUBJECT: Schedule of events prior to and after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in Dallas, Texas on Friday November 22, 1963.
11:25 a.m. The President and Mrs. Kennedy with members of the Presidential Party departed Carswell A.F.B., Texas via USAF 26,000 (Jet, also known as AF 1) enroute to Love Field, Dallas, Texas.
The following members of the United States Secret Service were aboard this aircraft. ASAIC Roy T. Kellerman, in charge of White House Detail for the Texas trip, SA Clinton Hill in charge of Mrs. Kennedy's security, SA William Greer Presidential driver, ATSAIC Emory P. Roberts, in charge of 8 am-4 p.m. shift, with SA's John Ready, Donald Lawton and William McIntyre. SA John O'Leary was also aboard AF 1. Special Agent Glen Bennett of the 8 a.m.-4 p.m. shift arrived Dallas, Texas aboard USAF 6970.
11:40 a.m. Presidential Plane arrived Love Field, Dallas, Texas, which was five minutes late according to schedule, as we were due there at 11:35 a.m.
After the usual greeting of approximately 20 people, upon deplaning, the President and Mrs. Kennedy walked to roped off area and shook hands with a number of the assembled persons gathered there, and autographed a few papers and pamphlets. I accompanied the President, as well as other Special Agents while he greeted the people. The President and Mrs. Kennedy returned to their car.
11:55 a.m. The President (right rear seat), Mrs. Kennedy (left rear seat) Governor John Connally (of Texas) (right jump seat) Mrs. Connally (left jump seat) ASAIC Roy T. Kellerman front seat, with SA William Greer driving, (SS car 100 X--top removed) departed Love Field.
SA Donald Lawton of 8 a.m.-4 p.m. shift remained at Love Field with SA Warner and Rybka to set up security for the President's departure for Bergstrom AFB, Austin, Texas. The Presidential aircraft was due to depart Dallas at 2:35 p.m.
The following persons departed Love Field in Secret Service Follow-up car, 679 X and were located in and on running boards of car as follows:
ATSAIC Emory P. Roberts--front seat--operating radio.
SA Samuel Kinney--driving (did an excellent job)
Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, Appointment Secretary to the President, left jump seat.
Mr. David Powers, Presidential Aide, right jump seat.
SA Glen Bennett, left rear seat.
SA George Hickey, right rear seat (manning AR-15 (rifle)
SA Clinton Hill, left running board, front.
SA William Mclntyre, left running board, behind Hill.
SA John D. Ready, right running board, front.
SA Paul Landis, right running board behind Ready.
Note: On shift report for Nov. 22, 1963, I listed SA Rybka as riding in center of rear seat, which was in error, as he was not in car. As mentioned above, he remained at Love Field.
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