Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[James H. Fetzer]

OK. Attacks from those who have not studied issues bother me a lot. But I appreciate it and will try to do better--and not overuse bold.

I would ask that all members refrain from personal attacks and keep the focus on the research and data only. Please count to 10 if you are feeling particularly pissed off and then let the moment pass. It is not worth having this interesting thread derailed just to have a swipe at some one.

Carry on gentlemen.

[James H. Fetzer]

NOTE: This appears to me to be an acid test of Judyth's critics. We already know that
Junkkarinen, Viklund, and McAdams have been collaborating in attacking her. It now
appears to me that Judyth has proof--in the form of a tape recording--that puts the lie
to this disgraceful abuse of the memory of someone widely admired. If there is a more
dishonorable act than this--for crass political motives--I cannot image what it would be.

RESPONSE TO JUNKKARINEN'S MARY FERRELL POSTING:

TO ALL:

A GOOD RESEARCHER WILL PRESENT INFORMATION IN AN UNBIASED MANNER.

1) BUT BARB DID NOT POST MARY FERRELL'S EMAIL AND ITS ORIGINAL HEADER.

INSTEAD, SHE POSTED AN ATTACHMENT TO IT. WE DISPUTE THE PROVENANCE AND AUTHORSHIP OF KEY PORTIONS OF THAT ATTACHMENT.

2) THE EMAIL BARB DID NOT REVEAL TO YOU SAID THAT MARY EXPRESSED 'REGRET' THAT SHE HAD TO WASH HER HANDS OF ME.

TO MY FACE, MARY TOLD ME THAT SHE COULD NO LONGER BEAR THE RELENTLESS PRESSURE FROM ALL HER OLD FRIENDS. IT WAS DRIVING HER CRAZY AND SHE HAD DECIDED TO STOP DEFENDING ME IF SHE WAS TO HAVE ANY PEACE. SHE RELIED ON THESE PEOPLE FOR TRANSPORTATION, INCOME FROM LANCER, THE MARY FERRELL AWARD AT LANCER, AND SHE JUST COULDN'T KEEP DEFENDING ME ANYMORE.



3) BARB WITHHELD THE FACT THAT WE HAVE A TAPE RECORDING WHERE MARY DENIED WRITING THE ATTACHMENT AS IT IS NOW PUBLISHED.

WE NEED HONESTY IN RESEARCH.

THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD THE TAPE OR HAVE READ ITS TRANSCRPT MUST ASK:

4) DID MARY FERRELL LIE TO THOSE WHO TAPED HER,?
WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT MARY FERRELL'S HONESTY, IF SHE DID?

SHE IS NOT HERE TO GIVE YOU HER SIDE OF THE STORY NOW.

MARY SAID SHE DID NOT WRITE THE ATTACHMENT IN THE FORM IN WHICH IT NOW EXISTS.
WE READ PORTIONS OF IT TO HER.

MARY TOLD ME SHE SAID BAD THINGS ABOUT ME TO PAUL HOCH, LIFTON, CONWAY AND MCADAMS BECAUSE OTHERWISE THEY PESTERED HER UNTIL SHE FELT READY TO CRY. SHE SAID ONLY PETER DALE SCOTT KEPT AN O[PEN MIND ABOUT ME.

SHE WAS TAKING A LOT OF MEDICATIONS, INCLUDING ANTI-DEPRESSANTS. SHE HAD BIG MOOD SWINGS, AS EVERYBODY KNOWS WHO KNEW MARY WELL.

SHE TOLD ME AND FRIENDS OF MINE THAT SHE JUST COULDN'T STAND THE PRESSURE OF MY ENEMIES ON HER ANYMORE. THEY HAD ALL BEEN HER FRIENDS FOR SO LONG, EXCEPT, SHE SAID, SHE DESPISED CONWAY.

IF MARY DIDN'T LIKE ME, WHY DID SHE GIVE ME THE GATE CODE SO I COULD VISIT HER AND RECORD HER MESSAGE THAT SHE DID NOT WRITE THE EMAIL? HOW DID WE GET INSIDE THE LOCKED SECURITY GATE, WHERE YOU HAVE TO PUNCH IN THE GATE CODE?

BECAUSE MARY FERRELL CALLED ME AND ASKED ME IF I WOULD COME OVER. SHE HAD BEEN OUT TO LUNCH WITH PETER DALE SCOTT AND OTHERS AND HAD COME BACK IN AND WAS FEELING BADLY BECAUSE BAD THINGS HAD BEEN SAID ABOUT ME ON THAT EMAIL.

MARY GAVE ME THE NEW GATE CODE TO GET INTO HER HIGH SECURITY ASSISTED LIVING QUARTERS.

I HAD BEEN THERE MANY TIMES AND ALREADY HAD HER ROOM NUMBER.

SHE PUT ME ON HER LIST OF ACCEPTED VISITORS..

I DECIDED TO TAKE WITNESSES AND A TAPE RECORDER.

THE NURSE UNLOCKED HER DOOR, AND ASKED IF SHE WANTED TO SEE US, AND WE WERE WELCOME.

YOU CAN HEAR IT ALL ON THE TAPE.

THAT'S NOT WHAT MCADAMS PUBLISHED ON HIS NEWSGROUP.

HE PUBLISHED A DESCRIPTION BY ROBERT CHAPMAN, WHO HAD NOT BEEN THERE.

SHAMEFULLY, ROBERT CHAPMAN DESCRIBED TO THE NEWSGROUP A NOISY, YELLING INVASION OF "JUDYTH SUPPORTERS" CHARGING INTO MARY'S UNLOCKED ROOM AND FORCING MARY TO SAY SHE DID NOT WRITE THE ATTACHMENT.

MARY NEVER TOLD CHAPMAN OR ANYBODY ELSE THAT I WAS THERE, TOO. MY VOICE IS ON THE RECORDING. BUT SHE NEVER TOLD.

SO CHAPMAN DESCRIBED A GANG OF JUDYTH SUPPORTERS BREAKING IN AND YELLING AT MARY. HE DID NOT KNOW THE TAPE RECORDING WAS MADE,

THAT WAS ANOTHER THING THAT MARY FERRELL DID NOT TELL HIM.

AFTER I RECORDED WHAT SHE SAID, WITH HER PERMISSION, I PUT THE RECORDER AWAY BUT IT DID NOT TURN OFF. IT HAD RECORDED OVER 400 INTERVIEWS WITH CAJUNS AND THE BUTTON WAS VERY LOOSE AND IT DID NOT TURN OFF. SO EVEN MORE THAN I HAD PLANNED GOT ON THE TAPE, SHOWING WE HAD A VERY PLEASANT MEETING AND MARY ENJOYED IT.

CHAPMAN DESCRIBE US AS BROWBEATING AND HARRASSING MARY.

THANK GOD, THE TAPE RECORDER KEPT ON RECORDING IN MY PURSE.

HE SAID THAT ATER THAT, THEY HAD TO LOCK MARY'S ROOM TO KEEP OFFENSIVE JUDYTH-SUPPORTERS FROM BOTHERING MARY. BUT HER ROOM WAS ALREADY BEING LOCKED, AS THE TAPE RECORDING PROVES.

ON THE TAPE RECORDING, YOU CAN HEAR THE NURSE SAYING SHE WILL UNLOCK THE DOOR AND ASK MARY IF SHE WANTS TO SEE US.

MARY DID.

WE HAD SUCH A NICE CONVERSATION.

I HAVE COPIES OF THE TAPE IN THE HANDS OF SEVERAL PEOPLE.

I CAN GET THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE TAPE AND WILL PUBLISH IT ON MY NEW BLOG.

WHY DIDN'T SHE TELL CHAPMAN, MCADAMS, & CO I WAS THERE? WHY DIDN'T SHE TELL ANYBODY ABOUT THE TAPE RECORDING? WE ASKED HER ON THE TAPE IF IT IS OKAY TO RECORD HER AND SHE SAID IT WAS.

WAS THAT HER WAY TO PROTECT ME, JUST A LITTLE?

PLEASE READ THE REMARKS ---LIKE THIS-- THAT ARE WRITTEN WITH CHAPMAN'S MESSAGE. HE DID NOT TELL THE TRUTH, AND WE HAVE THE AUDIOTAPE TO PROVE IT. THIS MESSAGE IS BEING SHOWN HERE TO THE PUBLIC IN DEFENSE OF JUDYTH VARY BAKER, ACCUSED OF ACTIONS SHE DID NOT COMMIT, BY A MAN WHO WAS NOT PRESENT.

JUDYTH BAKER HAD ENCOURAGED MARY FERRELL TO KEEP HER FUNDS IN DALLAS FOR HER TO HANDLE PERSONALLY. FERRELL SAID CHAPMAN WANTED FERRELL'S FUNDS TRANSFERRED TO AN OUT OF STATE BANK. SHE WAS IN TEARS OVER IT. SHE ALSO SAID THAT HER FRIENDS WERE BROWBEATING HER TO DENONCE BAKER, SHE WAS GIVEN NO PEACE IN THE MATTER, AND THEY WERE WEARING HER OUT ABOUT HER FRIENDSHIP WITH BAKER.

HERE ARE THE LIES THAT WERE POSTED BY ROBERT CHAPMAN, WITH COMMENTS I WROTE AT THAT TIME. THE REBUTTAL TO THE ATTACHMENT, WHICH IS REPLETE WITH INACCURACIES, THE WRONG DATES, AND OUTRIGHT LIES, WILL BE POSTED AT THE NEW BLOG THAT DR. FETZER CAN SEND YOU TO.

BECAUSE BARB DID NOT PRESENT THE EMAIL THAT CARRIED THE ATTACHMENT, NOR DID SHE TELL YOU ABOUT THE RECODING, I HOPE YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT I WLL NOT RESPOND ON THE EDUCATION FORUM TO ANY MORE OF HER POSTS, REPLETE AS THEY ARE WITH INACCURACIES.

I ASK THAT YOU SEE MY ANSWERS TO HER ENDLESS CRITICISMS THAT TAKE US FAR AFIELD FROM LEE OSWALD, BIOWEAPONS, ETC. INTO PERSONAL VENDETTAS.

THEREFORE, FROM NOW ON, I WLL DIRECT YOU TO THE NEW BOG FOR ANSWERS.

THAT WILL FREE THE EDUCATION FORUM FOR EDUCATION INSTEAD OF BOXES OF RED HERRINGS.

REMEMBER, BARB HAS TEN YEARS OF SUFF TO TROT OUT. THIS ONE IS PARTICULARLY SMELLY BECAUSE MARY DENIED WRITING IT ON TAPE. ROBERT CHAPMAN SAYS 'PEOPLE SENT BY JUDYTH' ACCOSTED MARY.

I WAS THERE.

HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

MARY DIDN'T TELL HM.

ASK YOURSELF WHY....

I WLL HAVE MORE INFORMATION FOR THOSE INTERESTED AT THE NEW BLOG.

COMMENTS BELOW WERE WRITTEN AT THE TIME CHAPMAN SENT OUT THIS DISTURBINGLY UNTRUE EMAIL THAT DOES NOT MATCH THE TAPE RECORDING. WHY DID HE LIE?

From: Robert Chapman
Subject: Mary Ferrell and her denunciation of Judyth
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk
Date: 2003-07-27 11:52:07 PST

All: Martin wrote:

"Mary Ferrell is cited based on one communication she has denied writing,..."

CHAPMAN: I have known and worked with Mary since 1975. We remain the very closest of friends. We speak by phone weekly (often several times), and I visit her in Dallas (I live in Memphis) 3-4 times a year. I know ALL of the details regarding the two incidents Martin refers to as Mary "denying" she wrote her letter of repudiation regarding Judyth. These are the facts:
Mary wrote that letter. She stands by every word of it. She considers Judyth a fraud.

--Tthe 'letter of repudiation' showed a source code from a different computer where the 'letter' was held up for hours before finally transiting on the internet. When the delay was pointed out, the source code was erased from the posted email 'from mary' and Dave Reitzes posted a hand-typed header instead, which of course we have copies of in both instances, both the old header and its substitute.--JVB

CHAPMAN: The two occasions to which Martin refers occured when people sent by Judyth,

JVB: --The persons involved were JUDYTH, Debbee Reynolds, and Judyth's sister, Lynda!
This is all on audiotape. A transcript was published on the internet.--

CHAPMAN:....frantic to salvage her status with Mary, entered into Mary's unlocked

JVB:--on tape we have the nurse unlocking the door and asking Mary if we can come in. Mary welcomes us! She's glad to see us!--

CHAPMAN: apartment door and woke her up. Mary lives in a very expensive assisted living facility in Dallas, and prior to these incidents always left her door unlocked so that staff could come and go unimpeded. She now locks her door.

JVB:--In fact, staff thought she wasn't even home and had to knock, and Mary answered. Mary said she had had no dinner because when she was dropped off earlier that day, but her daughter, Carol Anne, had failed to tell staff Mary had come home for the rest of the day. So Mary had no dinner (it was about 7:00 PM).

Yes, Mary lived in a very expensive assisted living facility, and we would NOT have been allowed in except MY name was on Mary's list of persons allowed to visit her. The nurse checked the list, found MY name, and that's why she brought me--with Debbee and Lynda--to Mary's room.--

CHAPMAN (WHO DOES NOT KNOW HOW MANY CAME TO MARY'S APARTMENT): These people, having woken Mary (who at 80+ years suffers occasionally from poor health) from a deep sleep, began shouting questions at her

JVB;--The tape recording shows nobody shouted. We had a nice talk, which began about the pretty jewelry Lynda was wearing. Lynda is a numismatist who has sold rare coins and rare gems. Mary said she was interested in the jewelry. That is how the conversation began.--


CHAPMAN:....and waving around in the air a document and asking Mary if she wrote it. Mary worked for 40+ years for a law firm, and she told me she didn't know what they were waving about but she denied writing that or anything.

NOTE: IN CHAPMAN'S OWN WORDS, HE HAS MARY DENYING SHE WROTE THE DOCUMENT THAT BARB SAYS MARY WROTE....

JVB: --We did show her the document, eventually, about ten minutes into the tape, and she looked at it, then had us read portions. She denied having written it. She said she would never have mentioned Debbee's discounted tickets because it might have got her in trouble at her job. (Debbee and Lynda have thought of each other as sisters for years.) We have the entire incident on tape. Later a second group of researchers met with Mary and she confirmed the same things to them. We can obtain statements, if necessary, from the second group of researchers, who met Mary about three weeks later.--

CHAPMAN: She wanted them the Hell out of her apartment. Her opinion was and remains that Judyth's claims are just that--claims--not facts, and Mary cares not in the least what anyone thinks of her (Mary's) opinion of Judyth, nor does she care whether anyone believes she wrote the letter (that she did write) denouncing Judyth.

NOTE: NOW CHAPMAN SAYS SHE DID WRITE THE ATTACHMENT THAT HE CALLS A LETTER.

JVB--Mary's computer was placed in an entirely different room, which she could not reach without getting out of bed. Durng the visit, Mary asked Judyth to check her computer because it wasn't working properly. I found that the computer was not protected by a password. It was also improperly hooked up to the Internet. Mary said she would have someone brought in to fix it.

The computer was also running hot because the main component was behind a closed door in a cabinet. I suggested the back be knocked out of that part of the cabinet to stop overheating of the computer.

Did someone get on Mary's computer, paste together some emails that she had sent to me with questions, then their own comments were added?

Anybody could get on the computer without its password protection, and would not even be seen using that computer. My opinion is mere conjecture, but we may have to impugn Mary Ferrell's honesty otherwise. As for support, Ferrell wrote a note saying she found Judyth's story 'credible' to a literary agent, Frank Weimann. We have the original note and copies.--

CHAPMAN: The clear evidence for that is the absolute silence from Mary regarding Judyth or anything to do with her since the day Mary emailed her position.

JVB--Mary told us she had been browbeaten and pestered so much by Chapman, Lifton, McAdams, Conway, and other 'friends' that she refused to say any more. "They're driving me crazy!" she said. However, we had asked permission to tape record her statements and she knew she was being tape recorded when she said she did not write that email. I soon put the tape recorder in my purse so I could give Mary some water. It kept running and the rest is harder to hear, but still audible.--

CHAPMAN: I write this in the full knowledge that it will likely convince no one, and am doing so simply to put on the record the absolute truth regarding this matter.

JVB: HE WASN'T PRESENT, BUT A TAPE RECORDER WAS. HE LIED. --And Mary didn't tell him about the tape recording. This was how Mary got the truth out without Mary having to argue with Chapman. We released the tape recording's transcript only after enduring a flurry of nasty emails against me (Judyth) for several weeks, which resulted from this message of Chapman's.--

CHAPMAN: I do not normally post, and do not lurk. These messages are forwarded to me.

[b]JVB--Mary complained that when I had tried to called her that the ringer on her phone had been turned down. She complained about ongoing computer problems. She complained that she was being isolated from her friends by her daughter. She also complained that the doggie door that had been promised was not installed, and her pomeraniam was not with her as promised.

She also complained that she had not had an intercom installed so she could talk to visitors at her door without getting out of bed. Mary said she was being locked in her room all the time, and she resented that. Chapman says this was our fault! Thank God, we have a tape recorded record of the visit!--JVB

I will reply to the particulars of the "letter of denunciation" at the new blog. I hope the Education Forum members will forgive me for these intrusions by others. I have been trying to get new information posted. I have not had the opportunity for years, due to these very tactics.

[James H. Fetzer]

Good post. Pamela. Judyth has sent a response to Junkkarinen and you:

JUDYTH COMMENTS ON BARB AND PAMEL:

Barb has provided an excellent example of the fact that Pamela had an
objective attitude toward me, as a new witness, in 2000. She commented
that I did not seem to have anything new to present. Note Pamela said:

"Some of the statements attributed to Judyth seem to be almost silly; so
it is difficult to attach any value to them."

Pamela had only seen excerpts and crude misrepresentations of my words.
Note that she said "attributed to Judyth" rather than saying "Judyth said."

That critical ability to apply discernment, rather than blindly swallow alleged
quotes, caused her to correspond wit me through hundreds of emals over
the years. And yes, she asked for clarifications.

During that same time period of a decade, Barb J. never asked a single
question of me. Her 'research" never included a single interview. She
has had ten years to do so. So much for Barb J's "objectivity."

Pamela and Monk were among the very the first people to speak up in my
defense when attacks aganst my character were first raised on this forum.

I find it ironic that Pamela's objectivity in 2000 has been pointed out to you
by Barb.

Ten years on, Pamela, far better informed than Barb of who I really am,
knows how complex the matter is, and how easily my statements might be
misrepresented, largely through oversimplification and misquotes.

Edward T. Haslam spoke before COPA and stated that he thought he knew
who I was and the 'whole story' through literally hundreds of hours of research
and face-to-face interviews. But even he admitted he had some misunderstandings
after all of that, until he read my (authorized) book and accompanying private notes.

He also took extraordinary pains to clarify issues and inspect the smallest technical details.
In fact, I consider Haslam's research abilities to be phenomenal. I can even state that he's
been mean to me--sometimes heartless and even ruthless--all for the sake of vetting the
witness. He took that responsibility serously.

You do not want this man delving into your life if you have done anything wrong. He will
find your electric bill from 1970 that didn't get paid.

Thank you, Edward T. Haslam, though you put me through the wringer.

And thank you, Pamela, and Monk.

Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk

From: pame...@primenet.com (pamela mcelwain-brown)
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 03:24:59 GMT
Local: Thurs, Nov 2 2000 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: Judyth and Jack Ruby

David,
It seems as though you have no alternative but to invest a considerable
amount of time and energy attempting to objectively verify the statements
of this person. Coming from my research on the Weldon "Man from the
Rouge", I can sympathize, in that when even a part of the research
community is hyped about a *new witness* that momentum can have a tendency
to move more quickly than actual facts might warrant.

As I follow these threads, a bit belatedly, I must ask the question --
what difference does it make? If Judyth had continued to maintain her
anonymity, what would we not know about LHO that we do *know* now? It
seems that she provides LHO-Ruby connections, but that has been done by
other less new witnesses, such as Beverly Oliver, so that is not *new*
information. In addition, some of the statements attributed to Judyth
seem to be almost silly; so it is difficult to attach any value to them.

It had been my thinking that once a *witness* had at least a name, a job
description, a voice, and was willing to communicate with the research
community (things the MFTR was unable to do) that vetting such a witness
in terms of their relevance to the assassination would be a relatively
simple thing.

Not so, I am discovering.

Pamela

[quote name='Pamela McElwain-Brown' post='186748' date='Mar 14 2010, 12:15 AM'][quote name='Kathy Beckett' post='186729' date='Mar 13 2010, 09:01 AM']

And while the campaign continues, they consistently refuse to answer one simple question -- namely, why can't this one documented witness be allowed to speak in an open forum?

Hasn't she been speaking? We have pages and pages of it.
[/quote]

How disdainful that sounds, Kathy.

Let me try again. How many words has Judyth been allowed to speak in an open forum, without 'researchers' who embrace and kowtow to every other witness, documented or not and yet speak libelously against Judyth, refusing to allow those who are interested to weigh and evaluate Judyth's statements on their own. They also consider themselves to be at the same level as a witness, having no perspective to the fact that a researcher can only operate with second-hand information from which they can develop an hypothesis. Trying to libel a documented witness simply convolutes the process of getting information from them.

How many witnesses have you worked with?
[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH COMMENTS ON MONK'S POST:

Look how Monk thinks I have noting to add... That is relevent....It has been years
since we spoke....

There seems to be a desperation to turn the conversation AWAY from New Orleans..

Here's what is relevant:

Despite all the hoopla about TEXAS, NEW ORLEANS IS WHERE THE PLOT WAS HATCHED.

Lee said meetings were held in Baton Rouge.

Can somebody look into US MILITARY PRESENCE IN BATON ROUGE?

I WILL IF I EVER GET THE TIME.

LEE SAID HE WAS INSPECTED BY A MILITARY OFFICER in baton rouge before the officer
went into a meeting where representatives from New Orleans met with dalas plotters.
Lee was posted as a 'guard' but they discussed him in some way. This was in early
September just after he had seen David Atlee Phillips (Mr. B--Bishop) in, I think it
was Houston, in the presence of Antonio Veciana, who reported that to Gaeton Fonzi.

Everybody got to view lee and see his face as Lee was the 'guard." Everyone. The
military guy acted as if he was memorizing Lee's face. He was a Navy man.

Lee aid they came out and informed him that a fund had been set up to care for his wife
and child so that if he wanted to transfer to Mexico (he had requsted this) it culd be done
after his mission to Mexico City.

That mission, btw, lured Lee to Mexico City and into all kinds of exposure so he could
later be framed...

They LATER ordered him to return to DALLAS and broke their promise, telling him he
would be reassigned to Mexico and could even enroll as college student there, be an
informant for the CIA with funding, etc.--BUT IT WOULD BE AFTER CHRISTMAS.

DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS PIECE OF INFORMATION, WHICH MY INNER RESEARCH
CIRCLE KNOWS ABOUT AND MY EDITORS, HAS NO VALUE WHATSOEVER TO THE JFK
RESEARCH COMMUNITY IN UNRAVELING HOW LEE OSWALD WAS MANIPULATED INTO
GOING TO MEXICO CITY, WHY HE RETURNED TO DALLAS WHEN HE EXPECTED, AS SEEN
IN THE BOOK MARINA AND LEE, NEVER TO SEE MARINA AND THE BABY AGAIN FOR YEARS
AND YEARS?

LEE IS ON RECORD AS WEEPING, AND MARINA, TOO.

OH, HOW I WISH I HAD THAT BOOK AGAIN! GET THAT AND READ IT!

NOW, I 'HAVE NOTHING OF IMPORTANCE TO SAY ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION...'

THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE TELLING YOU.

UNDERSTAND, IF I HAD SPOKEN TO THE 'BARB CROWD' ABOUT THIS, THE EVIDENCE
MIGHT HAVE BEEN HUNTED DOWN AND HAVE DISAPPEARED.

I ASK YOU TO FIND STUDENTS OR SOMEBODY TO SEARCH FOR IT.

THE MEETING IN BATON ROUGE WAS ONE OF SEVERAL.

JVB

[quote name='Greg Burnham' post='186781' date='Mar 14 2010, 05:52 AM'][quote name='Jack White' post='186779' date='Mar 13 2010, 08:17 PM']As for me, I care not at all whether JVB's tales are 100 percent true or 100 percent
false. Whichever it is, nothing she says, whether true or false, adds one iota to our
knowledge of the JFK assassination.[/quote]
Jack,

While I feel confident that this is not a "black and white" issue and I don't think it is all or nothing, I too have my doubts about what value or relevance her evidence has to our inquiry about JFK's murder. So, I finally agree with part of what you are saying.

I believe everyone should be free to form individual opinions about this instead
of being ridiculed for being in one camp or the other. My only interest is in truth. If her
every statement could be shown to be true, nobody yet has explained why it matters.

Up until now, many have been less than open minded toward the possibility that her statements were even worth considering. So this might be a break through. Her claims may still turn out to be irrelevant, but at least they might be given a fair shake here.

Everything she says is more National Enquirer material than important information. My main
concern is that JVB is divisive and disruptive. I suggest a moratorium till her book comes out,
to see exactly what she claims.

Again, I object to the use of the term "everything she says" -- as it is an inappropriate generalization. Moreover, you haven't reviewed "everything she has said" as that would be impossible. As for her being divisive and disruptive, I beg your pardon, but I vigorously disagree. On the JFKresearch forum, it was not she who was disruptive! Not even a little bit, Jack. Quite the contrary. I was there and witnessed what I consider to be one of the most vile attacks on any member by those who are normally not inclined to such behavior. The disruption was not caused by Judyth's behavior AT ALL. It was caused because THE SUBJECT of her and her story was even brought up.

That said, it seems as though your current position is at least more reasonable than your previous one.
[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

MORE ON BATON ROUGE AND LEE'S INVOLVEMENT (where my 2-hour
interview with Abraham Bolden may be found in the archives for "The Real Deal",
http://nwopodcast.com/fetz/media/jim%20fet...am%20Bolden.mp3
and in the blog that I have about him and THE ECHO FROM DEALELY PLAZA at
http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010/01/ec...rview-with.html

SHAW INDEED WAS A MONEY MAN IN SEVERAL OPERATIONS.

HE NOT ONLY DROVE THE BLACK CADILLAC (NOW BEING ERRONEOUSLY
DESCRIBED AS A LINCOLN CONTINENTAL ONLINE BY DISINFO PEOPLE)
IN CLINTON TO JACKSON. HE ALSO BROUGHT MONEY WITH HIM FOR
DOCTORS THERE. SILVA IS STILL ALIVE AND OF COURSE WILL DENY IT,
BUT HE IS ON RECORD AS WORKING WITH DR. HEALTH ON OTHER
HUMAN EXPERIMENTS AT THAT SAME EAST LOUISIANA MENTAL
HOSPITAL IN JACKSON.

SHAW PAID THEM MONEY.

HE GAVE LEE MONEY, YES. TWICE.

I HAVE BOTH CHRONICLED IN THE BOOK.

WHILE I USE A LOT OF DIALOGUE --TO PRESERVE THE REAL MAN AND THE WAY
HE SPOKE, ETC.--THESE FACTS ARE ALL THROUGH THE BOOK.

THERE'S MORE ON BATON ROUGE.

THESE PEOPLE WLL DO ANYTHING TO TURN THE SPOTLIGHT OFF NEW ORLEANS.

HURRAH FOR GARRISON. THEY WOULD HAVE BURIED IT ALL AND I WOULD HAVE
NO WAY TO SPEAK OUT THAT COULD BE FACT-CHECKED.

BARB ACCEPTS NOTHING I SAY, ON THESE TERMS:

1) IF I MENTION SOMETHING IN THE RECORD, SHE SAYS I LOOKED UP OR
FOUND THE RECORD, NO MATTER HOW REMOTE OR OBSCURE

2) IF I MENTION SOMETHING NOT IN THE RECORD, SHE SAYS "PROVE IT"!

THEREFORE, WE MUST WAIT FOR YEARS FOR NEW EVIDENCE TO EMERGE PROVING
I AM TELLING THE TRUTH, INSTEAD OF FOLLOWING MY LEADS?

ONE SUCH PIECE IS LEE'S INVOLVEMENT WITH CUSTOMS--A NEW WITNESS AND THE
EVENT WITH THE 24-HOUR PASSPORT.

I DISCLOSED THAT INFORMATION TO DR. JOHN WILLIAMS. HE ENDED UP WRITING AN
ENTIRE PAPER, JUDYTH AND LEE IN NEW ORLEANS, WHICH I THINK WOULD GO NICELY
ON THE BLOG IF THE DEALEY PLAZA ECHO WOULD ALLOW IT TO BE REPRINTED.



HE WROTE IT WITH KELLY THOMAS, CHARLES THOMAS' GRAND-DAUGHTER, AT HIS SIDE.
YOU CAN'T GET MUCH BETTER AN ENDORSEMENT FROM A WITNESS' FAMILY THAN THAT.

I FIND IT INCREDIBLE THAT MY STATEMENTS REGARDING CHARLES THOMAS KNOWING
LEE IN NEW YORK, THAT CHARLES THOMAS WAS IN CUSTOMS THEN, BUT IN 1963 WAS
IN THE ANTI-CASTRO MOVEMENT IN MIAMI IN 1963, HAS NO USE TO RESEARCHERS?

SURELY IT DOES.

I STAND FORTH AS A WITNESS WHO SPOKE TO LEE OSWALD ONLY 37 1/2 HOURS
BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION, WHEN HE TOLD ME HE MIGHT TRY TO FIRE A WARNING
SHOT, THAT HE WAS BEING SET UP AND EXPECTED TO DIE

BUT IF HE RAN, MORE WOULD DIE. THAT HE HAD MADE EFFORTS, SOME SUCCESSFUL,
TO SAVE KENNEDY. I HAVE WRITTEN OF THESE THINGS IN 1999 AND ABRAHAM BOLDEN
CONFIRMED THAT AN INFORMANT NAMED 'LEE' WARNED THE CHICAGO FBI AND IT SAVED
KENNEDY'S LIFE AT THAT TIME.

YET JACK AND OTHERS, EVEN MONK, SAY I HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER IN THE CASE.

IT SEEMS THAT ONLY WHEN INFORMATON I HAVE ALREADY GIVEN OUT TO A SELECT
FEW THEN COMES OUT BY OTHERS, AM I TO BE HEARD. I HAVE RISKED MY LIFE TO
BRING OUT NEW INFORMATION.

SURELY THESE TWO ITEMS ARE A STARTER AND SHOUID RECEIVE MENTION. THEY MAY
SAY THAT ABRAHAM BOLDEN IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT 'LEE' BUT I STAND
WITH HIM, AND MY STATEMENT IS OLDER THAN HIS. I BELIEVE YOU, DR. FETZER,
SAID YOU INTERVIEWED BOLDEN AND WOULD CONSIDER HIM A RELIABLE WITNESS.

THE PROBLEM I HAVE IS DETERMINING WHAT KNOWLEDGE I CAN IMPART SAFELY
SO THE EVIDENCE DOES NOT GET DESTROYED. THAT HAPPENS EVEN TODAY.

JVB

[James H. Fetzer]

ANOTHER RESPONSE FROM JUDYTH TO JUNKKARNINEN:

BARB ACTS AS IF NOBODY HAD EVER OFFERED INFORMATION ABOUT ME
TO HER NEWSGROUP, THAT SHE HAD TO GO HUNTING FOR IT. THIS IS NOT
TRUE. OUTSIDERS WHO OFFERED INFORMATION ABOUT ME WERE TREATED
RUDELY OR IGNORED, SUCH AS THE PERSON WHOSE POSTS I OFFER BELOW.

AS FOR MCADAMS' NEWSGROUP AND HOW BARB AND THE OTHERS DO THEIR
'RESEARCH' I HAVE AN UNSOLICITED POST THAT A DUTCHMAN MADE TO THAT
NEWSGROUP. I BELIEVE THAT THE FORUM SHOULD SEE THIS LETTER AND THEN
DECIDE IF BARB, WHO ALWAYS CHIMED IN WITH MOCKERY THERE AT ME, CAN
HONESTLY DEPICT HERSELF AS A RESEARCHER WITHOUT AN AGENDA. I HAVE
PLACED IN BOLD FACE THE MORE INTERESTING COMMENTS THAT HE MADE.

BELOW THAT IS A SECOND POST MADE SEVERAL YEARS LATER BY THE SAME
PERSON. THERE HE MENTIONS THAT I HAD THREATS. BARB WANTED EVIDENCE
OF THREATS, ETC. THIS IS FROM A THIRD ARTY AND I OFFER THIS AS A SECOND
EXAMPLE. SHE CAN GO DO RESEARCH ON TO FIND OUT IF IT REALLY HAPPENED,
SINCE SHE ASKED FOR POLICE REPORTS, ETC. AND IMPLIED I MADE THINGS UP.

THANK YOU!

JVB

From: Boosh (boes-rizzo@zonnet.nl)
Subject: My connection with Judyth.
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk
Date: 2003-07-19 06:24:56 PST

After posting on this group once or twice I feel the need to explain who I
am and tell more about the way I met Judyth Vary Baker.

It seems like a lot of people on here do not believe I exist neither do
they believe Wim Dankbaar exist. After my first post I got some stupid
answers and questions (not all replies by the way). Also did I get emails of
people which had a virus attached.

First of all, who am I? :

My name is Boosh, this as an alias, not because I want to hide stuff. It's
simply the point of having a dutch name and lots of friends from the U.K.
and Australia. These people can't write my dutch name (they always misspell
it). That's why they all know me as Boosh (which is the phonetic version of
my name).

I am 32 years old and got married a few weeks ago. My wife is expecting her
first baby and is in her third month of pregnancy.

I am a professional chef in a huge kitchen. My job is to cook for
physically and mentally handicapped people. Also am I a sound engineer and
songwriter. Singer of a band and in my hometown most people who go to bars
and clubs know who I am 'cause my appearance is rather different from other
people.

I am born and raised in the Netherlands as were my forefathers. Our family
history goes back 400 years.

How did I meet Judyth?:

A few weeks ago I read an article about JVB in a newspaper and told my wife
I'd like to meet that woman sometimes 'cause the article peeked my interest.
At the moment we're celebrating a little honeymoon, we went to Belgium for a
few days and since the weather is great in the Netherlands (which doesn't
happen that much) we decided we'd spend the rest of our vacation in our
hometown.

On Tuesday the 15th of July we went over to a cheap little restaurant (main
course over there is $12). A friend of mine is working there as a bartender
and since he couldn't make it to my wedding I thought well hey let's have
dinner at his place and meet him.

During the meal I was having with my wife I saw Judyth walking in the
restaurant and I recognized her from a pic I saw in the newspaper.
After we were finished with our dinner I turned around and noticed her
sitting alone on the table behind us. I then asked her if she was the Lee
Harvey Oswald lady.

She right away asked me if we would join her on her table and asked me if I
was American because of my accent. I told her I was Dutch and she noticed I
spoke english with american, uk-english and australian accent. Which is not
strange cause I have loads of english and australian friends.

I had several Irish coffees and smokes while we were sitting on her table
and she told us her story. She also told me I smoke too much and drinking is
not healthy.

I was intrigued by her story and asked her if I could stop by at the museum
and hear more.

She told me to do that and me and my wife went home.

My first post here:

After I got home I started to browse the internet looking for information on
this subject and read numerous articles and saw dozens of websites.

I came across this newsgroup and noticed a discussion about Judyth.
My intention of letting people on here ask questions was merely because I
noticed that people are judging her without seeing her evidence or talking
directly to her. My silly thought was to gather the questions and ask them
to Judyth and tell her about this group. I wanted to ask her to give answers
and post them on this newsgroup.

The best example of stupid ass questions I got was: Ask her if she played
any part in the Lincoln assassination.

By then I already decided that it was of no use to participate in asking
her stuff for the sake of this group.

I made the people an offer and some responded by sending me emails with
attachments, some asked stupid questions and some didn't believe I was a real
person.

My second meeting with Judyth:

On Friday the 18th of July 2003 at aproxx. 3:30 pm me and my wife walked in
to her little museum. Judyth was sitting on a chair talking to a 42 (at least
that my guess) years old man. She got up right away and welcomed us to her
place. She introduced us to the man who was Wim Dankbaar. A very nice guy.
Allthough he discovered after a few minutes that we (the wife and me) were
not english. He kept talking english to us to be polite to Judyth.

Judyth started to give us a tour while he was watching some stuff on a
video.

After a while he said goodbye and left for home. Judyth gave us a full tour
and told us the exact same story she did earlier this week but this time she
went deeper in to things. She showed us loads of original material and proof
about who she was and what she had done in her life.

To me Judyth appears to be a very nice lady with very good manners and an
incredible story. She talks very fast but sometimes she has to stop when she
gets emotional or is in pain due to an accident she once had.

I enjoyed being with her and although she was worn out after one hour of
talking she just kept going on and on.

We came in at 3:30 and left at 6:15 PM. I asked Judyth if I could come back
again and she told me and my wife we're always welcome.

About the museum: The museum is also an art gallery. On the walls there's
loads of photos, original manuscripts, photocopies etc etc. Above all these
things hang paintings she did herself and which are for sale. She sells her
artwork to make a living and I must say they look great! She never asked
admission fee for entrance of her museum and she didn't ask donations. She
gave me some leaflets and a newspaper with her story in it.

Now to all people on here:

Judyth Vary Baker was very sincere to me. I got an answer to every question
I had and she showed me every piece of paper I asked her for.

She is a nice lady and she reminds me of my mother. When I first met her I
told her she looked a bit like Janis Joplin (the no dope version haha) she
laughed about that.

She is not sponging anyone of and tried to sell her artwork to make money. She
does not eat in fine hotels (like someone suggested). Instead of that she
eats at home and sometimes eats a salad (6$) in my friends restaurant.
I have no political interest and I haven't formed a point of view on the
whole JFK case. I do not know the truth and therefore I don't back anyone
up. I am not religious. I do not believe any conspiracy or the so-called
truth told by the U.S. Government.

I just think that Judyth Vary Baker has got a story to tell (whether it's the
truth or not). I cannot judge her by listening to her story for five hours
and seeing her stuff. She has so much prove and I don't know where to start.
The only thing she did is be very very nice and peek my interest.

To Judy: Dear Judy, I am glad I met you and thank you for sharing your time
and story with me and R. I will come back to your place regularly. Not only
because I'm interested but also because I think you're a great person. Like
I told you before: You've got two new friends.

To Wim: Nice to have met you this week and I'm glad with every piece of info
you can come up with,regards Boosh.

====================several years passed====
Introducing myself
by ArjanBoes on Sat May 06, 2006 9:56 pm

Hi there,

I'd like the opportunity to introduce myself. My name is Arjan Boes and I'm a music-
producer from the Netherlands. I got interested in the JFK assassination a few years
back after reading an article in a dutch newspaper about Judyth Vary Baker.

A week later I was having dinner in a little restaurant when Judyth came in
and sat next to me and my fiancee's table. I recognized her from the picture in
the newspaper and started talking to her. We had a few drinks together and
Judyth invited us to come and visit her at her little museum.

I visited her two or three times, 1 time with my fiancee. At one of these occasions
I had a long talk with Wim and we shared a bottle of wine that I got from a friend
of mine's bar that afternoon.

Due to personal reasons and the moving of Jude (as I call her) we lost contact but
occasionally I browsed the internet to see if there were further developments.

I focussed on producing music mainly and Wim kept searching for the truth.

Last week I saw a television program about the findings of Wim and I contacted
him again.

I like to state for the record that:

I am not a believer of a single gunman theory.
I am not a truely believer of any conspiracy theory whatsoever.
I am not religious.
I am not political active nor do I vote when there are elections in my country.

Alltough my name is Boes and some people know me by my artist name "Boosh" and
my band's name is Bushcollectors. I am not related or linked to the Bush family nor
do I have sympathies for them or connections with them.

I am not as some people a few years ago stated an American citizen or from American
descent. People came to that conclusion just because I used abbreviations commonly
used in english. I just know a bit of the english language. My family is from pure Dutch
descent and my family tree goes back as far as 11 generations. Our first known ancestor
was born in the Netherlands around 1580.

I am here to get information for a project I want to do and I'll ask lots of questions.
I am not affraid of consequences. I know Judyth was threatened and some weird things
happended to her when she was living in my hometown. I've had guns in my face a few
times in my life and it really doesn't matter to me if a weird junkie that robs me pulls a
gun on me or a CIA guy that wants to silence me. I know the truth is out there and that
there are people like Wim Dankbaar that will do anything to find the truth.

Currently I am reading Wim's book which I bought yesterday. I'll read and read and browse
everything on the net before I make my own conclusion. Untill then I am blank. In other
words : I don't know what to believe and have to put every piece of evidence and theory
in place. Maybe I take sides but for now I am a newcomer, totally unbiased.

If anyone on here has any questions just shoot them at me and I will answer them.

Arjan Boes ( aka Boosh) producer and founder of "the Bushcollectors"

[James H. Fetzer]

MORE FROM JUDYTH:

Ask yourself:

1) Why was I never interviewed by the FBI at Reily's, though Lee and I
were hired the same day by the same small subcompany, moved together
a week later to Reily's main building, etc? Is this my fault, that I am not in
the record? Or was I kept from the record?

2) Why was I never interviewed by the FBI, even though I initialed Lee's
timecards, showing he worked 40 hours every week, when he obviously
was clocking out as late as 7:32 PM and had clocked in over an hour late
many times...



3) Why was I not interiewed by the FBI when my last day of work at Reily's
was August 9th, the same day Lee was arrested? Was that my fault?

4) Why did the Clinton witnesses go totally unreported until Jim Garrison
looked into it? What if Garrison had never found all those witnesses? Is it
my fault that nobody looked into the Clinton-Jackson affairs? (HINT: the
more questions I ask, the more you should ask: Was this because the FBI
was deliberately avoiding certain areas of investigation?)

5) Garrison's main prosecutor mentioned a mystery woman seen with Oswald
twice--once by Mary Morgan in Jackson, the other by Lea McGehee in Jackson.
They stated for the record in the very opening of the final arguments for the trial
that they wished they knew who that woman was. I was that woman.

6) Why didn't the FBI look into any of the Clinton-Jackson material after Garrison's
investigation, via the HSCA?

Have other persons in the case ever been found much later in time, with no official
record for researchers to sink their teeth into?

Consider that Joannides dealt with the FPCC and Lee Oswald issues, yet served to
inform the HSCA of CIA matters without revealing his own involvement. It took forty
years to link him to Oswald, through Jefferson Morley, and he was right under the
HSCA's very nose.

Consider that there is not one photograph of John Pic, Lee's half-brother, as an adult,
in any of the records I've seen.

How can we not have any photos of John Pic in the HSCA and the WC records -- yet
we have a photo of Jack Ruby's mother's teeth?

Could it be because no focus was wanted on the act that John Pic was running a major
section of a pathology laboratory for the US government -- and they wanted no links
to bioweapons or pathology or anything to do with medical experiments and testing to
his brother, Lee H. Oswald?

What do you now of John Pic beyond his WC testimony?

McAdams and Stephen Roy both assert there were no mice in Dave ferrie's apartment
for years before 1963. Garrison, however, has reported seeing the cages and smelling
the odor of mice--something he would not have mentioned had he not experienced it.



If almost nothing exists about John Pic, Lee's brother, who was involved in medical
matters, is it really so surprising that my name was omitted?

BTW, the name of 'Reily' is missing form the WC index. You have to plow through all
26 volumes to find the more than 100 entries concerning 'Reily' all by yourself. And
'Monaghan' my boss at Reily isn't in the idex, either, though he dictates imformation
about Lee's whereabouts, work records, background, etc., etc. through several pages.



Alton Ochsner was never mentoned by the FBI, WC or HSCA. ONLY Garrison brought
him up...But Ochsner-supporters had Truth and Consequences set up in California to
'fund' Garrison's investigation, moved all the INCA records to California, then watched
as Garrison turned away from Ochsner. '60 Minutes' had to find the document showing
Garrison wanted to arrest Ochsner....The threat and fear of arrest is also in Ochsner's
approved official biography, Surgeon of the South.

[James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO JACK WHITE'S "CHRONOLOGY":

THE CHRONOLOGY BY JACK WHITE IS NOT CORRECT, SORRY

I WILL CORRECT THE CHRONOLOGY WITH CAPS AND BOLD FACE...

I am trying to understand the timelines of JVB and LHO, so have
been doing some reading, and found the following of interest:

4-20-63: JVB arrives in NOLA.
4-25-63: LHO arrives in NOLA.
4-25-63 LEE EATS DINNER WITH DAVID FERRIE

4-26-63: JVB meets total stranger LHO in a line at post office.
4-27-63. LHO takes JVB on a NOLA tour to meet...

INCORRECT
...Ferrie
...Bannister PROPER SPELLING, IS BANISTER, WRONG DATE, JACK
...Ochsner WRONG DATE, JACK..HE WAS IN SOUTH AMERICA


4-27-63: JVB and LHO instructed to watch for classified ad for
employment, 640 Magazine Street, by Alvin Prechter.

INCORRECT. I WAS NOT INTERESTED IN WORKING ANY SUCH PLACE UNTIL MAY.
THE AD WAS OUT A FULL TWO WEEKS BEFORE WE WERE TOLD TO RESPOND TO
THEM. FULL DETAILS ARE INCLUDED AND I EXPLAIN WHY IN THE BOOK.

5-1-63: Robert Baker arrives in NOLA and demands immediate marriage.

5-2-63: JVB and Baker elope to Mobile Alabama

5-3-63: Baker leaves his bride of one day.

5-4-63: JVB is evicted from her rented room.

INCORRECT. I WAS NOT EVICTED. POLICE RAIDED THE HOUSE.
DEFINITION OF EVICTION:

Legal Definition of Eviction
Some permanent act by landlord, or by person or thing under his control,
which deprives a tenant of enjoyment of the rented premises.

5-4-63: LHO arranges a new room for JVB.

INCORRECT: LHO MEETS MNISTER AND WIFE WHO TOOK JUDYTH IN ,
AFTER THEY CALL THE MURRETS, WHICH SHE DOES NOT DARE DO
BECAUSE HE IS A MARRIED MAN...HE FINDS AN APARTMENT WITH
BEDROOM, BATHROOM, UNFINISHED KITCHEN AND A LARGE LIVING
ROOM AND PORCH WITH A SWEET, LITTLE OLD LADY AS LANDLADY--
SOMEONE HE KNEW WHEN HE WAS A SCHOOL CHILD, DUE TO A
TEACHER WHO HAD LIVED NEXT DOOR. ADDRESS: 1032 MARENGO,

5-9-63: LHO and JVB interviewed by Prechter at 640 Magazine.

5-10-63: LHO and JVB hired by Standard Coffee Company.

5-17-63: LHO and JVB transferred to Reily Coffee Company.

7-19-63: LHO fired by Reily.

NOTE: AD ORDERED SAME DAY TO REPLACE JUDYTH IN TIMES-PICAYUNE

8-9-63: JVB fired by Reily.

CORRECTION: 8-9-63 LEE OSWALD IS ARRESTED AND AS A CONSEQUENCE
OF BEING SEEN NEARBY, JUDYTH IS FORCED TO RESIGN. SHE WAS NOT FIRED.

What I gather from these timelines:

ISN'T JACK WHITE A GOOD RESEARCHER?
OR IS HE USING INACCURATE SOURCES FROM MCADAMS & CO??

[quote name='Jack White' post='186890' date='Mar 15 2010, 05:02 AM'][quote name='Jack White' post='186835' date='Mar 14 2010, 06:23 PM']I am trying to understand the timelines of JVB and LHO, so have
been doing some reading, and found the following of interest:

4-20-63: JVB arrives in NOLA.
4-25-63: LHO arrives in NOLA.
4-26-63: JVB meets total stranger LHO in a line at post office.
4-27-63. LHO takes JVB on a NOLA tour to meet...
...Ferrie
...Bannister
...Ochsner
4-27-63: JVB and LHO instructed to watch for classified ad for
employment, 640 Magazine Street, by Alvin Prechter.
5-1-63: Robert Baker arrives in NOLA and demands immediate marriage.
5-2-63: JVB and Baker elope to Mobile Alabama
5-3-63: Baker leaves his bride of one day.
5-4-63: JVB is evicted from her rented room.
5-4-63: LHO arranges a new room for JVB.
5-9-63: LHO and JVB interviewed by Prechter at 640 Magazine.
5-10-63: LHO and JVB hired by Standard Coffee Company.
5-17-63: LHO and JVB transferred to Reily Coffee Company.
7-19-63: LHO fired by Reily.
8-9-63: JVB fired by Reily.

What I gather from these timelines:

1. LHO and JVB knew each other before they worked at Reily's.

2. Within two days of arriving in NOLA, LHO met total stranger JVB
and took her around NOLA introducing her to Ferrie, Bannister and
Ochsner.

3. JVB and LHO were co-employees only from 5-10 until 7-19...
20 days in May, 30 days in June, and 19 days in July...a total of
69 days.

Previously I had been under the impression that ALL of the claimed
association took place at Reily Coffee Company.

Jack[/quote]
Apparently few bothered to read the timeline of JVB I posted. The implications of it are clear to me.
It reads like a script for "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE".

IMAGINED SCRIPT:

Hello, Miss Vary. Your assignment, if you choose to accept it, is as follows.

Move to New Orleans at your own expense this summer.

On April 26, watch the line of people at general delivery at the Post Office.

When a young man about 5'9" tall gets in line, approach him and drop a folded newspaper.

If he does nothing, he is not your contact.

If he picks up the paper for you, say "Thank You" to him in Russian.

He will confirm that he is your contact.

He will introduce you to people we want you to know in New Orleans.

The next day he will introduce you to a Dr. Ochsner, Dr. Ferrie and our man Guy Banister.

They will instruct you to watch for a classified ad which will place both of you in one of our front companies.

Once in place, you will await further instructions regarding your assignments.

This tape will self-destruct in five seconds.... 4...3...2...1...pfffffft.

[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

I DON'T GET IT, BARB. JUDYTH HAS LOADS OF PROOF. YOU SIMPLY IGNORE IT (AGAIN AND AGAIN)!





YOUR RESEARCH ON JUDYTH APPEARS TO BE ABOUT AS RELIABLE AS JACK'S "CHRONOLOGY"!

[quote name='Barb Junkkarinen' date='Mar 15 2010, 11:57 AM' post='186908']
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='186862' date='Mar 14 2010, 09:49 PM']
ANOTHER RESPONSE FROM JUDYTH TO JUNKKARNINEN:

BARB ACTS AS IF NOBODY HAD EVER OFFERED INFORMATION ABOUT ME
TO HER NEWSGROUP, THAT SHE HAD TO GO HUNTING FOR IT. THIS IS NOT
TRUE.[/quote]

Oh, Judyth, how silly it would be to "act as if nobody had ever offered information" about you! Silly on its face. A lot of people have offered information about you. But "information" like that included in the posts you provided, while supportive of you from someone who met you, enjoyed your company, spent hours listening to your story, as people here have been doing, are not "evidence" and certainly not documentation of your claims.

You wrote on your high school reunion page, after relating many details of your story, that:

I really don’t expect you to believe any of this without documentation and proof. Don’t be concerned: I’ve got the proof.

So you know exactly the type of information required - and if you have it and provide it, it would stop all the debate and argument about whether or not, as Jim put it, you are the "real deal."

It has not been produced, for years your supporters did not look for it. I did, starting in 2008. Others have done some as well. Documentation of your claims that could be expected to yield verification or denial is what I hunted for. ... and I posted exactly what I discovered on the mod group.

Things like whether or not an evening Russian class was created especially for you at Manatee Jr. College starting in the Spring of 1960. I have been able to document from the college and other sources that they already had an evening Russian class since the Fall of 1958.

And, on Roswell Park, where you claim to have presented the best paper at the end of the session and to have had scholarships, grants and awards heaped on you, I was frankly shocked to receive an e-mail from the dean, a professor and vice-president of RP telling me that in seeking to carry out his offer to get some information for me about your mentor while there, he had discovered that you had never completed the program as you had been "dismissed." That was later verified by reporter Chris Anderson for the Florida Herald Tribune when he was doing a story on you a year or so ago. I found two other students who had attended the same session you did and learned much about the program. As you know, one remembered you and one did not ... and I reported recollections from the one who did not recall the problem there that summer as well as the recollections of the one that did.

And my inquiries into your claim about the Indiana Biological Association that turned up no IBA (I went all the way to the secretary of state's records), but through some biology professora at Indiana colleges, I did learn, that while even old timers back as far as 1960 had never heard of the IBA, a couple did suggest the Indiana Academy of Sciences ... and lo and behold, I did find that you had co-presented at one of their meetings ... and I even received a copy of your abstract. And I made sure you got a copy. I could have pretended I never found it and no one would ever have been the wiser, but that is not the way I operate.

I have done claim checking with the American Cancer Society, the National Science Foundation, St. Francis College, the NIH/NCI, Reily's re the green glass, the International Science Fair, I did contact one who knew you ... Rob Strom, the UL Lafayette Library .... and more. The ones mentioned here have all been reported ... exactly what I asked, and what I discovered ... with accompanying documentation like college catalogs, annual reports, letters, etc.

What I have "hunted" for, Judyth, is documentation about your claims ... one way or the other, whichever way they fall.

Documentation is what I ask for. It is what is required, as you acknowledge in the quote I provided from you above. And as Pamela noted so many years ago, verification must be done .... lest people get swept away in it all without knowing it is factually correct.

You tell of terrible things that have befallen you, not only in Dallas and other places in the US, but the Netherlands, Hungary, Sweden ... and more. If you would provide police reports, names, dates and locations, etc, how easy it would be for anyone to verify those things for you.

And with the verifiable stepping stones to New Orleans ... and after ... established ... then people could better assess the likelihood of the veracity of the things you tell that cannot be documented, but that could be of great importance to research if people can be confident they are reliable.

You are a very bright lady. As you noted in the quote above, documentation is required. I hope you will help those seeking to verify elements of your story so that we can all get on to the what really matters here. And how much simpler and less time consuming, your life will be!

BELOW THAT IS A SECOND POST MADE SEVERAL YEARS LATER BY THE SAME
PERSON. THERE HE MENTIONS THAT I HAD THREATS. BARB WANTED EVIDENCE
OF THREATS, ETC. THIS IS FROM A THIRD ARTY AND I OFFER THIS AS A SECOND
EXAMPLE. SHE CAN GO DO RESEARCH ON TO FIND OUT IF IT REALLY HAPPENED,
SINCE SHE ASKED FOR POLICE REPORTS, ETC. AND IMPLIED I MADE THINGS UP.

Accounts from people who heard the information from you do not allow for verification. Names, like the name of the hotel where your room was broken into .... the month and year of that breakin ... and the city. That would be a great start. And, of course police reports from these crimes would take care of it. Easy.

Thank you for anything you can provide to help people document elements of your story and end the vicious circle of arguments ... so we can all get on with resolving the case. And that would free you up to tend to what is important right now ... getting your book finished so Trine Day can get it published!

Barb :-)
[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

I FIND BARB'S ABUSE OF THE MEMORY OF MARY FERRELL ESPECIALLY OFFENSIVE.

My interpretation is that Judyth wrote the note to Mary--here, prefaced by, "Dear Howie--
I don;t know how they did it, but Mary does not believe me. yes, I'm heartbroken, but i
will go on"--in the initial belief that it was authentic but that, after sorting things out, she
concluded that it was a fabrication in which Debra Conway played a significant role. That
appears to be consistent with other points she has made about it, including "IT JUST ISN''T
RIGHT..I FORGAVE HER LONG AGO BECAUSE SHE WAS SICK AND UNDER MEDICATIONS,
AND THEY WOULD NOT LEAVE HER ALONE ABOUT ME..." I am now pursuing confirmation.


JUDYTH REPLIES TO VIKLUND AND JUNKKARINEN (FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME):

1) PLEASE--TOO MUCH GOING ON AT ONCE. COULD EVERYONE WHO HAS AN
UNANSWERED QUESTION PLEASE REPOST THE QUESTION IN A SINGLE SENTENCE?

THANK YOU.

MR. VIKLUND: THE DOCUMENT

2) WHAT DOCUMENT IS MR. VIKLUND SHOWING PEOPLE? THEY ARE SAYING THEY
SEE IT, BUT I CANNOT SEE IT. WHERE IS IT?

3) MR. VIKLUND HAS NOT YET STATED HIS OCCUPATION, THOUGH ASKED SEVERAL
TIMES NOW. WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING, MR. VIKLUND? SWEDEN IS A SMALL
COUNTRY AND MY FRIENDS WANT TO MEET YOU!

MARY FERREL: THE ATTACHMENT

A CONCERN: THEY SAY MARY FERRELL HAD NEVER USED AN ATTACHMENT BEFORE.
THAT SHE HAD TO ASK DEBRA CONWAY HOW TO PLACE THE ATTACHMENT ON HER
EMAIL. THIS 'PROVES' THAT MARY CREATED THE ATTACHMENT?

THINK.

MARY FERRELL IS WRITING AN EMAIL THAT SHE CALLED A "STATEMENT." MOST
STATEMENTS ARE SHORT. THEY ARE NOT LENGTHY LISTS. I WAS AWARE THAT
MARY HAD SENT OUT EMAILS TO HER FRIENDS ABOUT ME IN THE PAST. SHE
TOLD ME SO. SHE SAID SHE WAS UNDER CONSTANT PRESSURE FROM HER
FRIENDS OF SO MANY YEARS TO NEVER ENDORSE ME.

NOTE: IN ANOTHER EMAIL, SHE SAYS SHE NEVER POSTED IN HER LIFE TO
A NEWSGROUP, WHEN ASKED IF SHE HAD POSTED THAT EMAIL. WHY DID
SHE THEN ALLOW MCADAMS TO POST THE EMAIL?

NOTE: SHE SAYS IT'S OKAY TO PUBLISH, IN A CONVOLUTED SENTENCE, BUT
ANYONE WHO HAS STUDIED LINGUISTIC PATTERNS CAN SEE THAT THE ORIGINAL
SENTENCE WAS UNLIKELY TO HAVE AN EXTRA 'NOT' IN IT....IN OTHER WORDS,
MARY LIKELY SAID SHE HAD NOT INTENDED TO HAVE IT PUBLISHED. READ THE
SENTENCE AND SEE WHAT YOU THINK.

WE KNOW THE ATTACHMENT ITSELF WAS REVISED EIGHT TIMES,
ACCORDING TO LONG-TIME MCADAMS NEWSGROUP MEMBER, PAUL SEATON,.

THINK:

YOU ARE WRITING AN EMAIL TO YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT A UNPLEASANT MATTER.
YOU WRITE LOTS OF EMAILS EVERY DAY. LOTS OF THEM.

BUT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YOUR LIFE, ACCORDING TO THEM, YOU CREATE AN
ATTACHMENT, EVEN THOUGH YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO ATTACH ONE TO YOUR EMAIL.

IS THAT VERY LIKELY?

WHEN FIRST PUBLISHED, THE FIRST HEADER WAS ORIGINALLY A PHOTOGRAPH.
POSTED ALONG WITH THE EMAIL ON MCADAMS' NEWSGROUP. IT WAS TO PROVE
THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE POSTED EMAIL.

I COPIED THAT PHOTO AND SENT IT, ALONG WITH THE WHOLE EMAIL MESSAGE,
TO SHACKELFORD AND PLATZMAN AND A FEW OTHERS.

THAT PHOTO OF THE HEADER WAS THEN ERASED -- AFTER IT WAS POINTED OUT
THAT IT HAD STAYED IN MIDAIR IN CALIFORNIA, AT AN UNKNOWN COMPUTER,
FOR MORE HOURS THAN TIME ZONES CAN EXPLAIN, BEFORE LANDING ON MCADAMS'
DESK.

IT HAD GONE FROM FERRELL TO CALIFORNIA
AND THEN WAS SENT FROM CALIFORNIA TO MCADAMS.

THAT PHOTO VANISHED, AND DAVE REITZES HAND-TYPED IN A NEW HEADER.

IT WAS DIFFERENT FROM THE ONE NOW SUPPLIED TO READERS. BUT VARIOUS
RECIPIENTS WOULD RESULT IN VARIOUS HEADERS. THE CONCERN IS THAT THE
ORIGINAL HEADER SHOWN WAS ERASED AND DAVE REITZES TYPED IN A NEW ONE.

I AM IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY AND CANNOT SUPPLY THE HEADERS AND MUCH ELSE,
BUT PAMELA MAY ALSO HAVE RECEIVED A COPY OF THAT HEADER AND MAY RECALL
THAT IT WAS ERASED AND ANOTHER ONE SUBSTITUTED.

I DEEPLY REGRET BRINGING MARY INTO THIS, AS I WISH EVERYONE TO REMEMBER
HER FOR THE YEARS OF HELP SHE GAVE RESEARCHERS AND WITNESSES. IT WAS
BECAUSE I BROUGHT UP THE NAME MARY DEAN THAT SHE BECAME UPSET WITH ME
THE LAST TIME WE MET BEFORE SHE SENT OUT THE EMAIL.

I HAVE THE DOCMENTS I FOUND CONNECTED TO 'MARY DEAN.' I PREFER NOT TO MAKE
THEM PUBLIC. IT IS AMAZING TO ME THAT THESE PEOPLE WOULD EXPOSE MARY AS BEING
EITHER A LIAR (TO ME AND OTHERS WHO ASKED HER IF SHE WROTE THE ATTACHMENT AS
IT NOW STANDS) OR A DELIBERATE FABRICATOR OF WHAT SHE HAD BEEN TOLD.

I HAVE WITNESSES TO OUR FIRST MEETING. I EXPRESSED SURPRISE THAT MARY HAD
HER OWN SET OF 26 VOLUMES--I HAD NEVER SEEN ANY PRIVATE PERSON WITH THEM.
THIS WAS MANGLED. MORE STATEMENTS I MADE WERE SIMILARLY MANGLED.

I AM OFFERING ONE EXAMPLE, BELOW:

===THE "THIS WOMAN'S STORY" NOTE TO FRANK WEIMANN===

IN THE ATTACHMENT, IT STATES THAT MARY WROTE ON A PLAIN PIECE OF PAPER AND THAT
LATER, JUDYTH COPIED IT ONTO PAPER WITH A PHOTO OF HERSELF ON IT. THIS AS THEN
CALLED "A FORGERY BY JUDYTH" BY PEOPLE ON THE FORUM.

I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THAT WE MET WELL BEFORE NOVEMBER,
BUT MARY MAY NOT HAVE TOLD HER FRIENDS.

===PHOTO OF A COPY OF THE NOTE IS ATTACHED===



THE DATED (NOV. 27, 2000) TEXT READS: 'DEAR FRANK, I THINK YOU SHOULD TAKE A LOOK
AT THIS WOMAN'S STORY. I BELIEVE SHE IS CREDIBLE AND I BELIEVE HER STORY WILL SELL.

BEST REGARDS, MARY FERRELL.

MARY HAD ASKED ME TO GIVE HER A PIECE OF PAPER TO WRITE ON,
AND THERE WAS ROOM ON THE SHEET I HANDED HER TO WRITE HER MESSAGE.

IT HAD A PHOTO OF ME AND MARINA ON IT.
MARY DOES NOT USE MY NAME BECAUSE SHE SEES THE PHOTO, SO SHE WRITES
'THIS WOMAN'S STORY' NOT "JUDYTH BAKER'S STORY."

IT'S JUST COMMON SENSE.

SO IF THIS SMALL MATTER COULD BE BLOWN INTO A BIG, FAT LIE,
WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THIS EMAIL?

I AM SORRY, BUT IT SEEMS MARY FERRELL'S REPUTATION WAS WORTH ABUSING, IF NECESSARY,
TO DISCREDIT ME. I AM NOT VERY STRONG IN THE BODY, BUT WITH GOD'S HELP, I WILL STAND FIRM.

JVB

[quote name='Barb Junkkarinen' date='Mar 14 2010, 11:15 AM' post='186788']
Why the rerun? I know it is here, I will address sections/issues raised over the next couple of days, no need to repost it again. Below I deal with items 1 and 2.

I came into the Judyth debate in mid-2004. It looks (from google archives) that Cancun and David Lifton's recorded conversation and comments on Judyth's story are what first caught my attention. I had seen lots of threads about Judyth for a few years, but really paid no attention to it all. I am not now, nor have I ever been part of any "team" colluding to get Judyth. As on most issues, researchers network and share information when they have a common interest on a subject. Nothing more that that. I did not know of Glenn Viklund until he posted on the mod group in December of '08. We had a couple of email exchanges during the time he had gotten information about the asylum issue from the migration board in Sweden. I had no further contact with him until I saw his post on the mod group a week or so ago and saw him mention that he would post on the Ed Forum but new members were not being accepted. Since my email bounced (problem it turned out between my server and his) I posted a reply to him asking him to email me. I wanted to give him information about contacting John Simkin to be admitted as a member. I do not attack Judyth as a person, though she and members of her team have certainly made it their business to attack me. That includes you. :-) . I attack her claims, and I undertook trying to fact check, verify ones that can be verified starting in early 2008.

Below is the e-mail that accompanied the attachment I have already posted ... with headers.
I added a couple extra emails .... including Judyth's December response to Mary .... which Mary forwarded on to others and an e-mail from Debra Conway.

Before you get too involved in the tape recording thing, Jim ... you might want to know how it came about, why Judyth said they went there with a tape recorder in the first place, the condition she claims Mary was in when they got there ... and the exact date. It was Sunday April 7, 2002.
I have all of the info including first hand accounts from Judyth ... and a transcript Martin posted a couple of years ago which is nearly useless as the answer to the question they asked was unintelligible after a few words. But do ask her and decide if you think it is wise to go there.

The provenance of Mary's e-mail and attachment was established ... though it is clear from Judyth's e-mails to Mary in both December and March (that one not posted yet, Judyth....again, do you really want to go there on the tape thing?) that had Mary not written and sent the attachment, she would have been totally bewildered as to why Judyth was saying some of things to her, noting that Mary had said them. And the whole world would have heard Mary bellow, and anyone who knew Mary knows that. The headers show the e-mail with the attachment went directly from Mary's computer to being received by John McAdams. Paul Seaton working from the attachment was able to check the Windows properties of said document, and here is what he found, he posted this info in a response to Martin Shackleford on 6-2-08:


Below are the properties of the judyth.doc that was sent out to McAdams et al.

Property Value
Description
Title Wednesday, December 12, 2001

Author Mary Ferrell
Last Saved By Mary Ferrell
Revision Number 8
Application Name Microsoft Word 10.0
Company
Date Created 12/12/2001 9:17 AM
Date Last Saved 12/12/2001 2:34 PM
Last Printed 12/12/2001 1:14 PM
Edit time 12/12/2001 1:14 PM

Please note: Mary Ferrell e-mailed Debra Conway in the middle of this process asking Deb to call her as she had never attached a document to an e-mail before and had some questions. A statement from Debra exists about that .... as well as a screen shot of that e-mail on her screen. I can post that screen shot and Debra's e-mail about it if Judyth insists.

And Mary's computer was password protected, only Mary knew her password.

Here are the December e-mails with headers.


Return-Path: <maryferr@cprompt.net>
Received: from cprompt.net ([199.34.20.66]) by postmarq.mu.edu
(Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 marquette Dec 7 2001
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with ESMTP id GO93R800.052 for <John.McAdams@marquette.edu>;
Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:59:32 -0600
Received: from mary-xp.cprompt.net [209.51.4.178] by cprompt.net with
ESMTP
(SMTPD32-6.00) id A1F9D9600CC; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:54:01 -0600
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212154557.01b8ef70@cprompt.net>
X-Sender: maryferr@cprompt.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:56:06 -0600
To: [email]dlifton@earthlink.net,rchapman@mem.net,debra@jfklancer.com[/email],

[email]paradigm@gtw.net,PaulHoch@uclink.berkeley.edu,John.McAdams@marquette.edu[/email]
From: Mary Ferrell <maryferr@cprompt.net>
Subject: Judyth Baker
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="=====================_755792484==_"


Dear friends,


It is with great regret that I send the following attachment.
I feel that the time has arrived to put an end to the Judyth Baker
part of my life. I hope all of you will understand why I am doing
this.


Sincerely,


Mary Ferrell

Judyth.doc
**************


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Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:02:56 -0600
To: John.McAdams@marquette.edu
From: Mary Ferrell <maryferr@cprompt.net>
Subject: Judyth Baker
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


Dear John,

I don't really know what to say in response to your request
about publishing my statement about Judyth. I guess it is inevitable
that it will "get out." I suppose I wouldn't have sent it to you had
I not known that you would want to put it on the Internet.

When I was in the hospital almost all of 1997, you were kind
enough to send me a lovely Get-well card. I did appreciate it. And,
then, recently you asked me my opinion of Judyth and said that you
would keep it in confidence if I asked you to do so. I was terribly
rude and didn't even reply to you.

I appreciate your asking permission now and I guess my answer
is -- use the statement the way you see fit.

Sincerely,
Mary Ferrell
**************


Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:55:48 EST
From: ElectLady63@aol.com
Subject: Mary, why did you post to the newsgroup?
To: <maryferr@cprompt.net>, <mshack@concentric.net>
Cc: <electlady63@aol.com>
X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version)
X-RCPT-TO: <maryferr@cprompt.net>

Mary, I would never do to you what you did to me.
I can't believe you would post such a long letter, filled with so many
errors, and sign your name to it.

I can't believe you called me 'dangerous.'

I can't believe you think I am so weak I would do harm to myself. I am
weak in that I trusted you, and YOU did harm to me.

I told the truth.

You have been more cruel than all the others, because you said you
loved me.

==j==
*************


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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:25:13 -0600
To: [email]dlifton@earthlink.net,rchapman@mem.net,caburtc@us.ibm.com[/email],
[email]Joanmellen@aol.com,paradigm@gtw.net,John.McAdams@marquette.edu[/email]
From: Mary Ferrell <maryferr@cprompt.net>
Subject: Fwd: Mary, why did you post to the newsgroup?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


I have never posted anything to a news group in my life.
Mary
**************************



The December response by Judyth to Mary.

Mary forwarded this to John McAdams.




From: ElectLady63@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:23:40 EST
Subject: I AM WRITING LARGE SO YOU CAN READ IT EASILY, MARY
To: Howpl@aol.com, maryferr@cprompt.net, jmarrs@ntws.net,
mshack@concentric.net
CC: real@louisiana.edu
X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536
X-RCPT-TO: <maryferr@cprompt.net>

Dear Howie-- I don;t know how they did it, but Mary does not believe
me. yes, I'm heartbroken, but i will go on.


TO MARY FERRELL, WHO I TRUSTED:
Mary, i forgive you for what you have done. You misunderstood many
things. for example, I have the original note you wrote on a sheet of
paper that already had my picture on it. I did not send that out to
others until you gave me permission. You may have forgotten. I don;t
know.

I do know that you treated me kindly. You were almost asleep when I
left. i had rubbed your back. we had watched Jack and the beanstalk
together, and then you were looking for the news. We were peaceful
together. You asked jimmy to show me out because i told you I had to
go home and grade papers. you did not kick me out, as you made it look
to the newsgroup. Jimmy showed me out because it was so late.

Mary, wqorst of all, you NEVER ASKED ONE TIME TO SEE THE BOOK. I
BROUGHT IT OVER SEVERAL TIMES. I STOPPED BRINGING THESE THINGS OVER
BECAUSE YOU NEVER SAW MORE THAN A FEW DOCUMENTS AT A TIME.
FURTHERMORE, I ONLY CAME TO VISIT YOU TO GIVE YOU BACKRUBS. I WAITED A
WHOLE YEAR BEFORE ASKING YOU TO WRITE SOMETHING FOR SANDRA, THE AGENT.


YOU MADE IT SOUND LIKE I MIGHT DO HARM TO MYSELF.
You also made it sound like i was a dangerous person.

You also madeit sound like maybe i was crazy.

I bared my very soul to you about my love for lee, and his for me. We
only had two nights to ourselves, i told you that. we spent some
afternoons in a few hotels together. We spent a few hours in a van
once, you made it sound terrible.

I confided in you. You told me not to tell many things, but you have
exposed me as some kind of psycho to the whole world.
I'm very sad.
All I can say is that I'm not lying.
I may not see in my lifetime Lee vindicated.
The Queen of Spades Louis Girdler told you about happens to be in
bound volume of sort stories. there is NOTHING like Lee's book in that
library. I NEVER said I had never seen the 26 volumes. i had never
seen them in a proivate house before--but what i was really trying to
say is that I had never seen the whole bunch of books before--not in a
house--and i had never read them. you thought I meant the 26 volumes?
well, you are an individual, i had never seen a private person powning
such.

Mary, you also said the university library had all kinds of books
about the assasination. THIS IS NOT TRUE. THERE ARE JUST A FEW BOOKS,
ABOUT THE CIA, THAT I KNOW OF. BESIDES, I SAID I WOULD NOT READ THEM.


THERE WERE A FEW OVER AT THE PUBLIC LIBRARY. DR. JOSEPH RIEHL WILL
TELL YOU HE SAID A BOOK ABOUT MAFIA KINGFISH WAS THERE--I NEVER KNEW
IT.

I NEVER SAID I KNEW MUCH RUSSIAN. I NEVER, EVER COULD THINK IN
RUSSIAN!. I SAID I HAD MADE A HABIT OF SAYING THANK YOU OR COMRADE ALL
THE TIME IN RUSSIAN, IT WAS ONE OF MY HABITS.

YOU NEVER TRIED TO SPEAK ANY RUSSIAN TO ME. YOU NEVER SAID A WORD IN
RUSSIAN.

I NEVER KNEW THE NAME OF THE AUNT. THAT IS WHAT YOU ASKED ME. I DID
WRITE IN THE BOOK TWO YEARS AGO THAT I STAYED ACROSS THE STREET WHILE
LEE WENT INSIDE AND TALKED TO HIS AUNT. THIS WAS ON ST. CHARLES
STREET, WE HAD JUST GOT OFF THE STREETCAR. THIS WAS WHAT I REMEMBERED.
YOU NEVER ASKED ME ANYTHING BUT IF I KNEW HER NAME. I NEVER DID.

I TOLD YOU CLEARLY THAT IT WAS MAY 4 AND MAY 5 THAT I FOUND OUT WERE
NOT ACCOUNTED FOR. THIS WAS RECENT. I NEVER, EVER KNEW ANY OF THIS
BEFORE I GOT SOME FEEDBACK FROM MARTIN THAT I HAD HIT SOME DATES
RIGHT, BUT EVEN THEN I DID NOT KNOW WHICH ONES FOR SURE UNTIL I SAW
YOUR CHRONOLOGY. YOU EVEN GAVE ME A FREE COPY OF YOUR CHRONOLOGY AND
MADE ME SO HAPPY.

YOU DID NOT MENTION THE AMERICAN EXPRESS MONEY ORDER OF MAY 27. YOU
MADE ME LOOK LIKE A LIAR, MARY.
I BARED MY HEART TO YOU.
I TOLD YOU MY SOUL ABOUT LEE, AND YOU TOLD ME ABOUT BUCK.
I SENT YOU POETRY THAT I NEVER DARED SHOW ANYONE BEFORE, EXCEPT
HOWARD.

WORST OF ALL, I THINK, WERE YOUR ERRORS. I NEVER SAID RORKE WAS GOING
TO MEET US IN MEXICO. HE HAD DIED BEFORE THAT. I NEVER SAID OCHSNER
GOT ME THE APARTMENT. I NEVER TOLD YOU WHO GOT ME THE APARTMENT. HE
HAD TOLD ME TO MOVE INTO THE 'Y'--WHICH I DID DO.

THE "HAMBURGHER" PLACE WAS HOW I TRIED TO WORK ON MY OWN, HAVING GOT
YTHERE EARLY.

YOU HAVE SWALLOWED THE MISREPRESENTATIONS AND LIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE
SWORN THEY WILL NOT ALLOW THE BOOK TO BE PUBLISHED. THEY WILL NEVER
SOLVE THE CRIME AGAINST KENNEDY. NEVER.

I DID INDEED MEET MACKINLAY KANTOR. I have a newspaper article proving
he spoke to my high school class. I was the star writer and was
introduced to him. He was very interested in my dog and horse stories.
He had writren The Voice of Buf=gle Anne and read the entire book to
our class in two hours. I was invited to his home. ASK HIS WIDOW HOW
HE WROTE HIS STUFF. HE WA;LKED AROUND WITH HIS TAPE RECORDER AND SPOKE
INTO IT. Twice i came over and held the tape recorder.

You should know that i try to be friendly. I liked Kantor a great
deal. He had very conservative friends in the military.

You got so many small details wrong that i am embarrassed for you. You
remembered a great deal, but it looks to me like you've been given a
lot of this oinformation, for it is quite skewed form the way it was
given to you.

One last example: I received a short note, hardly a letter, from
Russell. It was basically a quote from one of his lectures. His
secretary, your friend's husband, actually went to court to PROVE he
did not have control of many things Russell wrote. by the time I
wrote to Riussell personally again, he was no longer capable of
replying, and i did get a letter form his secretary. However, I did
receive a note the first time. I am certain i can find other letters
he wrote personally in that same time period, and i will certainly be
able to prove my point, because a bunch of them went on file in the
lawsuit proving Russell was independent and wrote letters of which
Sch. knew nothing or only knew about later.

Where in the world, finally, in closing, did you ever get the idea
that i was dangerous?

i came to see you to ease your pain. i spent hours massaging your
neck, legs, even your feet, because I cared about your pain. I knew i
was taking a risk when once you yelled at me and made me cry, and
then apologized. i realized you might not be the same lady that i
had met over a year earlier. I noticed that you were repeating tings,
and finally did mention these concerns to howard and Martin. but I
felt it was temporary, because you had fallen ill, and because you
missed Buck.

I defended your sanity and reason, mary, when you started crying, and
said, in poresence of me, debbee, and Carole Anne, that "How will BUCK
find me if I move out of this house? HOW will he find me?"
I have to tell howard about this so he will understand that I feel
you have changed, that never in a million years would you have written
that I might 'harmm' myself, or that I was 'dangerous' a year ago.

I have never harmed anyone in my life. You said, indeed, that i had
HEALING HANDS. I have spent hours trying to just give you some
physical comfort. in return, you have accused me on the internet of
being dangerous, even delusional, and all the things that now make me
lok like I am a mental mess.

I have learned my lesson.
I will take what i know to the grave.

You've destroyed my credibility.

forgive you, because i believe you are not the same wonderful lady who
said she wanted to help me get the book published, who even OFFERED
TO BUY ME A NEW CAR, AND I REFUSED TO LET YOU DO THAT. You also
offered to buyDebbe a new car. I suppose carole Anne still wants to do
something 'nice' for Debbee. debbe is a fine woman.

indeed, i have dear, fine friends.

I hope and pray that someday you will rethink out all you have said
and done to me this sad day.
You may have singlehandedly destroyed the last chance for the truth to
come out.


i give up.

==Judyth==
*********************


Subject: Mary Ferrell
Date: 14 Dec 2001 09:02:32 -0600
From: Debra Conway <de...@jfklancer.com>
Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk


Folks,


Having spoken to Mary both before and after she posted her email
regarding Judyth Baker, I can tell you she is very sane, coherent, and has all
her mental faculties. I resent Judyth's claims to Mary being unable to
remember what she has been told or what she has said. I've been through this
with Mary every step of the way and believe me, she not only has been
totally truthful in her email, typical of Mary, she has been generous and
sensitive to Judyth. She could have written much, much more.


For Mary's sake, I'm glad this is over. She is too polite sometimes
for her own good and allowed her kindness to Judyth to be misconstrued and
manipulated.


Sincerely,


Debra Conway
***************

These have all been posted on the net for years.

Barb


[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='186784' date='Mar 14 2010, 06:41 AM']
NOTE: This appears to me to be an acid test of Judyth's critics. We already know that
Junkkarinen, Viklund, and McAdams have been collaborating in attacking her. It now
appears to me that Judyth has proof--in the form of a tape recording--that puts the lie
to this disgraceful abuse of the memory of someone widely admired. If there is a more
dishonorable act than this--for crass political motives--I cannot image what it would be.

RESPONSE TO JUNKKARINEN'S MARY FERRELL POSTING:

TO ALL:

A GOOD RESEARCHER WILL PRESENT INFORMATION IN AN UNBIASED MANNER.

1) BUT BARB DID NOT POST MARY FERRELL'S EMAIL AND ITS ORIGINAL HEADER.

INSTEAD, SHE POSTED AN ATTACHMENT TO IT. WE DISPUTE THE PROVENANCE AND AUTHORSHIP OF KEY PORTIONS OF THAT ATTACHMENT.

2) THE EMAIL BARB DID NOT REVEAL TO YOU SAID THAT MARY EXPRESSED 'REGRET' THAT SHE HAD TO WASH HER HANDS OF ME.

TO MY FACE, MARY TOLD ME THAT SHE COULD NO LONGER BEAR THE RELENTLESS PRESSURE FROM ALL HER OLD FRIENDS. IT WAS DRIVING HER CRAZY AND SHE HAD DECIDED TO STOP DEFENDING ME IF SHE WAS TO HAVE ANY PEACE. SHE RELIED ON THESE PEOPLE FOR TRANSPORTATION, INCOME FROM LANCER, THE MARY FERRELL AWARD AT LANCER, AND SHE JUST COULDN'T KEEP DEFENDING ME ANYMORE.

[........][/quote]
[/quote]