Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Jan Klimkowski]

In "The Nazi Connection to the John F Kennedy Assassination", Mae Brussell stated:

Allen Dulles may not have invited such a man (Reinhard Gehlen) to his club, but he did the next best thing: he funneled an aggregate of $200 million in CIA funds to the Gehlen Organization as it became known. Directing operations from a fortress-like nerve center in Bavaria, Gehlen reactivated his network inside Russia. Soon, news of the first Russian jet fighter, the MiG-15, was channeled back to the West. In 1949 the general scored an espionage coup when he turned up Soviet plans for the remilitarization of East Germany.

When Dulles spoke, Gehlen listened. The CIA chief was convinced, along with his brother, Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, that the "captive nations" of the Soviet bloc would rise up if given sufficient encouragement. At his behest, Gehlen recruited and trained an exile mercenary force ready to rush in without involving American units. Also at Dulles' direction, Gehlen tapped the ranks of his wartime Russian collaborators for a cadre of spies to be parachuted into the Soviet Union. Some of these spies were schooled at the CIA's clandestine base at Atsugi, Japan, where, in 1957, a young Marine named Lee Harvey Oswald was posted to the U-2 spy plane operation there.

Atsugi was only one station on Oswald's Far East intelligence route; he was also at the U-2 base at Subic Bay in the Philippines and, for a short while, at Ping-Tung. Taiwan In 1959 he was transferred to a Marine base at Santa Ana, California for instructions in radar surveillance. His training officer had graduated from the Georgetown School of Foreign Service, which had close Agency ties.

So, if this is correct, we have "training schools" for both MK-ULTRA and the Gehlen Organization operating out of Atsugi during the timeframe in which Oswald was busy attacking a fellow soldier, in curiously pre-meditated fashion, in the synchronously named Bluebird cafe, Yamato.

Blue bird.

Maeterlinck and l'oiseau bleu.

[David Guyatt]

Most interesting.

As is often (if not usually) the case the subject of the occult rears its head in regard to the subject of mind control. Apologies if this is a hijack. I promise it will be temporary and of short duration - but I think it is of some significance, especially in light of the apparently occult clothed individual and death ritual Judyth has mentioned in the above thread about the Atsugi assassins.

Pushkin's The Queen of Spades


Plot Summary
By Michael J. Cummings...© 2007
.
.......The all-night card party at the rooms of Narumov, a cavalry officer, ends with dinner and champagne near dawn. Narumov asks Surin how he fared.
.......“I have no luck," Surin laments: "I play cautiously, never get excited, never lose my head, and yet I go on losing!”
.......Another player calls attention to Hermann, an officer in the engineers, saying he always comes to watch but never plays. Hermann explains, “I am not in the position to sacrifice the necessary in the hope of winning the superfluous.”
.......Prince Paul Tomsky, also an officer, observes that Hermann is simply being prudent. The person who really puzzles him, Tomsky says, is his eighty-seven-year-old grandmother, Countess Anna Fedotovna, because she never bets against the banker in card games. Then he tells a little story about her that he heard from his uncle, Count Ivan Ilyitch, the countess's son.
.......In Paris sixty years before, when her beauty dazzled society, she lost an enormous sum at court to the Duke of Orleans in a game of faro. After returning to her residence, she directed her husband to pay the debt. The normally compliant man refused to do so, pointing out that she had spent 500,000 francs in just six months. In desperation, she wrote a letter to old Count St. Germain, famous for the stories told about him–that he claimed to have discovered the elixir of life and to have found a way to turn base metals into gold. In his memoirs, Casanova said he was a spy. Whatever was true or untrue about him, he was always in demand at social gatherings, and the countess had fond memories of him, the most important of which was that he had money.
.......The count immediately went to her and told her a secret card strategy that would enable her to win back her money. That night at Versailles at the jeu de la reine (Queen Marie-Antoinette's own gaming table), she again played against the Duke of Orleans after telling him a little tale about why she had not yet paid him his money. Upon employing the secret strategy, she immediately recouped her losses.
.......Afterward, the countess guarded the card secret from others. She even refused to reveal it to her four sons, including Tomsky’s father. However, after taking pity on an acquaintance named Chaplitzky, who had lost 300,000 rubles, she told him the secret, designating three cards he should bet on. She also made him promise that after the game he would never play cards again.

Snip...

Read the full plot summary HERE

(My italics)

On the mysterious Count St. Germain see HERE

Theosophy raising it's head again.

Some esoteric groups credit him with inspiring the Founding Fathers to draft the United States Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, as well as providing the design of the Great Seal of the United States. (See Manly Palmer Hall's Secret Teachings of All Ages.)

The Queen of Spades has a distinct occult symbilism too, namely the black Queen, the black Madonna, namely the Egyptian Isis who sits at the centre of Theosophical discourse (ergo Theosphy's Madame Blavatsky's unweildy two volume source reference books Isis Unveiled Queen of heaven, Isis is equivalent to the Roman Minerva, who is the British occult Goddess Brittania (Unless one has a deeper interest in this trail I would be inclined to ignore it, but I think Don Jeffries may find it very interesting if scrolled down far enough)

Note that the Duke of Orleans was the Grad Master of the Grande Orient Lodge of France. He first attended a lodge meeting in 1777, the year the Bavarian Illuminati was outlawed.

Note also that another title given to Orleans was Duke of Anjou which has several reverberations in the Prieure de Sion story. There are many other connected threads in the Anjou line that can be investigated by those sufficiently interested.

Okay, end of diversion, please carry on.

PS, I should have included that Minerva is the Goddess of "war and intelligence".

[James H. Fetzer]

Well, I appreciate your and Jan's posts, which are extremely interesting. I have a guest for my radio program on Friday, who insists that Reinhard Gehlen and Otto Skorenzy were in Dallas for the assassination, which is news to me. Has anyone ever heard of their presence? It was a classic fascist-style coup intended to replace the policies of JFK with those of LBJ, but does anyone have more about Gehlen or Skorenzy? Please send me a private reply.

[Jan Klimkowski]

An introduction to Estabrooks' research as summarized by Colin Ross MD.

It has a certain tingling resonance:

Dr. G. H. Estabrooks

G.H. Estabrooks is the only mind control doctor who has publicly acknowledged the building of Manchurian Candidates. In his book Spiritism, [37] Dr. Estabrooks describes experiments done to create multiple personality by military psychiatrist Dr. P.L. Harriman. [38][39][40] In his book Hypnotism, [41] Dr. Estabrooks states that the creation of experimental multiple personality for operational use in military subjects, whom he refers to as super spies, is ethical because of the demands of war. P. 159, 162

He comments in a chapter entitled “Hypnotism in Warfare” that: “the hand of the military must not be tied by any silly prejudices in the minds of the general public. War is the end of all law. In the last analysis any device is justifiable which enables us to protect ourselves from defeat.” P. 162

In a May 13, 1968 article in the Providence Evening Bulletin, [42] Estabrooks is described as a former consultant for the FBI and CIA, and is quoted as saying that, “the key to creating an effective spy or assassin rests in splitting a man’s personality, or creating multipersonality, with the aid of hypnotism. This is not science fiction. This has and is being done. I have done it.” P. 162

Dr. Estabrooks’ proposal to the CIA dated June 22, 1954 states: “In deep hypnosis the subject, military or civilian, can be given a message to be delivered to say Colonel X in Berlin. The message will be perfectly safe because the subject will have no memory in the waking state as to the message. It can be arranged that the subject will have no knowledge of ever having been hypnotized. It can be arranged that no one beside Colonel X in Berlin can hypnotize the subject and recover the message….I will take a number of men and will establish in them through the use of hypnotism the condition of split personality. Consciously they will be ardent Communists, fanatical adherents to the party line. Unconsciously they will be loyal Americans determined to thwart the Communists at every turn. These men will have no knowledge of ever having been hypnotized, and can only be hypnotized by such persons as the original operator may choose. Consciously they will associate with the Communists and learn all their plans. Once every month they, as loyal Americans, will tell what they know. This sounds unbelievable, but I assure you, it will work.” P. 163, 165

In a 1971 article in Science Digest, Dr. Estabrooks [43] claimed to have created hypnotic couriers and counterintelligence agents for operational use: “The ‘hypnotic courier’ provides a unique solution. I was involved in preparing army subjects during World War II. One successful case involved an Army Captain. He was an excellent subject but did not realize it. I removed from him, by post hypnotic suggestion, all recollection of ever having been hypnotized. I put him under deep hypnosis, and gave him – orally – a vital message to be delivered directly on his arrival in Japan to a certain colonel – let’s say his name was Brown – of military intelligence. Outside of myself, Colonel Brown was the only person who could hypnotize Captain Smith. This is ‘locking.’ I performed it by saying to the captain, ‘We will use the phrase ‘the moon is clear.' Whenever you hear this phrase from Brown or myself you will pass instantly into deep hypnosis.’ When Captain Smith re-awakened, he had no conscious memory of what happened in trance. The system is virtually foolproof.” P. 167, 168

By the 1920’s not only had [clinical hypnotists] learned to apply posthypnotic suggestion, but also had learned to split certain complex individuals into multiple personalities like Jeckyl-Hydes. During World War II, I worked this technique with a vulnerable Marine lieutenant I’ll call Jones. I split his personality into Jones A and Jones B. Jones A, once a “normal” working Marine, became entirely different. He talked communist doctrine and meant it. He was welcomed enthusiastically by communist cells, and was deliberately given a dishonorable discharge by the Corps and became a card-carrying party member. Jones B was the deeper personality, knew all the thoughts of Jones A, was a loyal American and was “imprinted” to say nothing during conscious phases. All I had to do was hypnotize the whole man, get in touch with Jones B, the loyal American, and I had a pipeline straight into the Communist camp. It worked beautifully for months.” P. 169

Dr. Estabrooks did experiments on children. He corresponded with FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover about using hypnosis to interrogate juvenile delinquents. His experimentation on children raises the possibility that investigators have attempted to create Manchurian Candidates in children. Such a possibility might seem far-fetched until one considers the LSD, biological and radiation experiments conducted on children, the fact that four MKULTRA Subprojects were on children, and that hypnotic subjects described in the CIA documents include girls 19 years of age. P. 176, 177



[37] Estabrooks, G.H. Spiritism. New York: E.P. Dutton, 1947.

[38] Harriman, P.L The experimental induction of a multiple personality. Psychiatry, 5, 179-186, 1942.

[39] Harriman, P.L The experimental production of some phenomena related to multiple personality. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 37, 244-255,1942.

[40] Harriman, P.L A new approach to multiple personalities. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 13, 638-643, 1943.

[41] Estabrooks, G.H. Spiritism. New York: E.M Dutton, 1947. To order this book, click here.

[42] Bender, L. Children’s reactions to psychotomimetic drugs. In D.H. Efron (Ed.), Psychotomimetic Drugs, pp.265-271. New York: Raven Press, 1970.

[43] Estabrooks, G.H. Hypnosis comes of age. Science Digest, 44-50, April 1971.An excerpt of this article is available here.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/bluebird10pg

[James H. Fetzer]

While we are dealing with this (as an aside), the case that strikes me as the most plausible for a "Manchurian patsy" is that of Sirhan Sirhan, who had all of the characteristics of being highly suggestive and subject to hypnosis, which I would suspect were not traits also found in the man Judyth knew in New Orleans. But the topic is certainly an interesting one in relation to assassinations, whether or not that includes JFK.

[Linda Minor]

Dr Fetzer rejects Eustace Mullens because he is not familiar with him. He may be a reliable source or and unreliable source but Jim doesn't know of him to make that judgment yet. This seemed quite clear in his previous post.

Does this not call into question the judgement of Dr. Fetzer's anonymous expert? This person is supposed to be legitimizing Baker somehow, no?

In case anybody needs help, here's Mullins:

The Jews do not want anyone to know what Nazism is. Nazism is simply this -- a proposal that the German people rid themselves of the parasitic Jews. The gentile host dared to protest against the continued presence of the parasite, and attempted to throw it off. It was an ineffectual reaction, because it was emotional and ill-informed.

- Mullens, The Biological Jew

Judyth Vary Baker isn't in good company all of a sudden, is she?

Can Dr. Fetzer decide whether or not Eustace Mullens is a reliable source now? And does this colour his opinion of his "expert" in any way?

Furthermore - why couldn't he just allow Baker's argument to stand on its own?

Heck, I thought we'd already covered this ground once. Revisiting it again and again is tedious and distracting.

David,
Did you ever have any run-ins at Kris Millegan's old research group with Alex Constantine? This reminds me of the same thing that used to happen there back in 1997 and later. Maybe Alex changed his name? Of course I heard that his real name was Dan Rightmyer.
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listser...07851.html
http://thefreedom.blogtownhall.com/default.aspx

I know Alex did research, of a sort; I even helped him with it and was thanked, along with people on the list, in his book about the death of rock musicians. Adrian Mack also writes reviews of the rock music scene in Canada, Vancouver to be exact.

Deja vu all over again, and again, and again.

http://guttersnipemedia.wordpress.com/20...k-on-milk/

http://guttersnipemedia.wordpress.com/ta...nstantine/

[David Guyatt]

Dr Fetzer rejects Eustace Mullens because he is not familiar with him. He may be a reliable source or and unreliable source but Jim doesn't know of him to make that judgment yet. This seemed quite clear in his previous post.

Does this not call into question the judgement of Dr. Fetzer's anonymous expert? This person is supposed to be legitimizing Baker somehow, no?

In case anybody needs help, here's Mullins:

The Jews do not want anyone to know what Nazism is. Nazism is simply this -- a proposal that the German people rid themselves of the parasitic Jews. The gentile host dared to protest against the continued presence of the parasite, and attempted to throw it off. It was an ineffectual reaction, because it was emotional and ill-informed.

- Mullens, The Biological Jew

Judyth Vary Baker isn't in good company all of a sudden, is she?

Can Dr. Fetzer decide whether or not Eustace Mullens is a reliable source now? And does this colour his opinion of his "expert" in any way?

Furthermore - why couldn't he just allow Baker's argument to stand on its own?

Heck, I thought we'd already covered this ground once. Revisiting it again and again is tedious and distracting.

David,
Did you ever have any run-ins at Kris Millegan's old research group with Alex Constantine? This reminds me of the same thing that used to happen there back in 1997 and later. Maybe Alex changed his name? Of course I heard that his real name was Dan Rightmyer.
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listser...07851.html
http://thefreedom.blogtownhall.com/default.aspx

I know Alex did research, of a sort; I even helped him with it and was thanked, along with people on the list, in his book about the death of rock musicians. Adrian Mack also writes reviews of the rock music scene in Canada, Vancouver to be exact.

Deja vu all over again, and again, and again.

http://guttersnipemedia.wordpress.com/20...k-on-milk/

http://guttersnipemedia.wordpress.com/ta...nstantine/

Hi Linda, and many thanks for this. I do remember Alex Constantine, but I believe I took the decision to remain out of his orbit.

I hear what you're saying.

Go Texas!

[Jan Klimkowski]

I know Alex did research, of a sort; I even helped him with it and was thanked, along with people on the list, in his book about the death of rock musicians. Adrian Mack also writes reviews of the rock music scene in Canada, Vancouver to be exact.

Deja vu all over again, and again, and again.

Linda - provocative observations.

I too have had personal dealings with both Alex Constantine and Martin Cannon over the years. I've also been mentioned in dispatches...

Researchers who immerse themselves deeply into this subject matter, its protagonists and its victims, tend to get, ahem, a little wired.

Some researchers will try to take some time out every now and then.

Others like to stay deep in there, getting more and more attuned to the numinous whispers, like a Dostoevskyan Idiot, the holy Fool of the Major Arcana of the Tarot.

[James H. Fetzer]

As opposed to the question of whether Judyth had been banned from Rich's forum, Kathy Collins raises a much more interesting question in this post.

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO KATHY COLLINS:

GENERAL RESPONSE:

This lady 'skims the thread' but anticipates that her insulting and careless insertion of all kinds of nasty things about Lee Oswald will provoke a response. She has either (1) not bothered to see the banned documentary, THE LOVE AFFAIR -- meaning that she is a lightweight posting here in the thread (even though she reveals extra knowledge, underlined below, that shows she has closely studied the case). In fact, her supposed ignorance that prompted the series of questions is therefore a non sequitur or else (2) she has seen THE LOVE AFFAIR but pretends she has not, for most of the answers to her queries are in that documentary. Either way, Kathy reveals hostility against both Oswald and me and has inserted herself pretending not to know much about what is going on. I doubt this because, even though I am blocked from accessing messages on the Education Forum for some reason, and have to have them sent to me to read, I have seen her name as she has been reading the thread. I also see Barb's name reading the thread, I went to the EF about twelve times before giving up having a chance to read more than one or two of the many messages before I get an 'under maintenance' page, saying the site is down... But I always can see "1 member, 1 guest" for example, at the bottom, even when I could not enter to see messages.. And the member's name is given. And Kathy HAS been reading the thread at least twice when I have also been there, just like Barb.

Her mention of Oswald being on TWO RADIO "SHOWS" (sic) is something only researchers generally know about (They were radio programs, but the word 'show' is a subtle way to demean the events, rhetorically speaking)... Her message is laced with rhetoric that instills hostility and prejudice against Oswald and also against me, yet she obviously knows a lot more than ordinary people about the case or would not know he was "drinking a coke" and so on... My comments below are in caps.

SPECIFIC REPLIES:

"What did Oswald do to save Kennedy's life?"

SEE 'THE LOVE AFFAIR' AND RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT HE TOLD ME HE WAS PART OF AN 'ABORT TEAM' WHERE HE WAS NOT IN CHARGE, BUT HAD TO TAKE ORDERS. I REPORTED THAT FACT TO JIM MARRS AND OTHER RESEARCHERS OVER A DECADE AGO.

"How stupid was Oswald?"

[NOTE: I think Kathy meant this in the ordinary sense of, "Just how dumb could he have been (under the circumstances)?", where Judyth instead took it to be a question about his intelligence quotient. But Kathy no doubt meant it rhetorically.]

HIS IQ WAS MEASURED AT 118, WHICH IS BRIGHT -- BUT HIS UNDER THE OLD-FASHIONED IQ TESTS THAT DID NOT TAKE DYSLEXIA INTO ACCOUNT. IN A MODERN IQ TEST, I ESTIMATE HIS IQ, CORRECTED FOR DYSLEXIA, WAS 135. THAT IQ IS CONGRUENT WITH HIS KNOWN FACILITY IN RUSSIAN AND WAS SUFFICIENTLY COMPATIBLE WITH MY OWN.

"The Presidential motorcade was going to pass where he worked -- didn't he find that suspicious?"

LEE OSWALD KNEW MORE ABOUT THE ROUTE THAN PEOPLE REALIZE. HE REPORTED A PORTION OF THE ROUTE TO ME, MENTIONING THAT IT WOULD BE MADE -- DELIBERATELY -- TO PASS THROUGH TURTLE CREEK AND MAKE A SHARP RIGHT, LESS THAN A BLOCK FROM 3525 TURTLE CREEK, THE TOWER WHERE MURCHISON, SR., AND MAYOR CABELL LIVED. I THEREFORE KNEW WHAT TO LOOK UP YEARS LATER -- AS LEE DESCRIBED THE 'TURN AT TURTLE CREEK'-- AS WHERE JFK'S ENEMIES MET -- AND FOUND OUT THE INFORMATION I NOW SHARE WITH ALL OF YOU, BELOW, INFORMATION THAT IS NEVER MENTIONED BY RESEARCHERS, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, IN 40 YEARS OF INQUIRIES INTO THE DALLAS MURDER. I HAD WANTED TO GET THIS INFORMATION INTO THE UNAUTHORIZED BOOK PUBLISHED (BEFORE I COULD SEE THE GALLEYS) BY THE FINE RESEARCHER, HARRISON E. LIVINGSTONE, A DIFFICULT MAN TO DEAL WITH, BUT ONE WHO REALIZED THAT MY INFORMATION WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH FOR HIM TO PUBLISH MY BOOK. HE DID SO IN A FORM I COULD NOT AUTHORIZE. I BRING THIS UP BECAUSE LIVINGSTONE'S ENDORSEMENT OF ME IS ALMOST NEVER MENTIONED.

THE SITE OF A MEETING CALLED "THE TROPHY MEETING": 3525 TURTLE CREEK

Democrat William A. Blakey served two incomplete terms in the U.S. Senate from Texas (1957, 1961) and was succeeded in 1961 by another 3525 Turtle Creek resident John Tower, first Republican U.S. Senator from Texas (1961-85).

Earle Cabell, mayor of Dallas (1961-64) and U.S. Congressmen from Texas (1965-73) lived in the building...Oil magnate Clint Murchison Sr. maintained an apartment on the 5th floor of 3525 Turtle Creek. His son of the same name founded the Dallas Cowboys....

http://www.3525turtlecreek.org/HTML/notables.htm

THEY HAD THE ROUTE GO THROUGH THERE DELIBERATELY AND EVEN TOOK PHOTOS AS THE CAVALCADE TURNED THERE.

I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PRESENT THIS INFORMATION. THANK YOU, KATHY. GOING ON WITH HER STATEMENT:

"Handing out leaflets, doing 2 radio shows [i]about communism, etc. Didn't he realize covert agencies were painting him red? He was practically the only one in the TSBD who didn't go out and watch the President go by. Didn't he hear the shots?"[/i]

BRIEF REPLY:

"Handing out leaflets, doing 2 radio shows about communism, etc."

==AN INTERVIEW AND A 'DEBATE' VIA RADIO ABOUT CUBA AND CASTRO WERE PARTS OF HIS ANI-FPCC 'PAINT FPCC RED' CAMPAIGN, AS HE WAS ORDERED TO DO BY THE CIA==

"Didn't he realize covert agencies were painting him red?"

==YES==

"He was practically the only one in the TSBD who didn't go out and watch the President go by. Didn't he hear the shots?"

==HE FOLLOWED ORDERS==

"Now, what did he do to save Kennedy?"

==CHICAGO -- SEE ABRAHAM BOLDEN'S TESTIMONY IN DOUGLASS' EXEMPLARY BOOK, JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE: WHY HE DIED AND WHY IT MATTERS==

[NOTE: My blog about Bolden, http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010/01/ec...rview-with.html, also includes a two-hour interview with him on "The Real Deal", which is archived at http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com.]

"Stand there drinking a coke?"

==READ MY BOOK, KATHY. SEE THE DOCUMENTARY 'THE LOVE AFFAIR' WHEREIN NIGEL TURNER SQUEEZES IN A GREAT DEAL IN A FEW MINUTES. HE HAD OVER 24 HOURS OF GOOD FILM TO PICK FROM AND 38 HOURS OF PRIOR INTERVIEWS TO DOUBLE-CHECK EVERYTHING I SAID ON FILM. I PARTICIPATED WITHOUT REFERENCE TO A SINGLE NOTE OR EVEN A CALENDAR==

"If he really wanted to be a hero, why didn't he run in front of the limo, yelling, "They're going to kill you," and cover Kennedy's head? Of course the Secret Service would have killed him. But he did nothing to stop the shooting."

==ANSWER: WHY HE DIDN'T RUN OUT THERE AND YELL? -- MARINA. JUNE. RACHEL. ME. -- WE WOULD HAVE BEEN SLAUGHTERED. HE TOLD ME SO. == BESIDES, HE DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WOULD BE IN DEALEY PLAZA OR AT THE TRADE MART==HE DID TELL ME THAT HE CONSIDERED MAKING A WARNING SHOT, WHICH WOULD HAVE GOTTEN HIM KILLED.

BUT HE EXPECTED TO BE SHOT DEAD, HE TOLD ME, AND THEN A RIFLE WOULD BE PLACED BESIDE HIM OR IN HIS HANDS. HE HAD TOLD ME HE WAS BETTER OFF DEAD TO THE CIA ANYWAY BECAUSE THEY COULD NEVER FULLY TRUST HIM AFTER RETURNING ALIVE FROM THE USSR. HE MIGHT HAVE 'TURNED' WITH BRAINWASHING....EVEN NOW, HE'S ACCUSED OF BEING MKU'D, AND I AM, TOO. BUT WE WERE NOT MKU'D...

WHAT A POSITION LEE OSWALD WAS IN.

I WONDER WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF MR. TRULY, WHO HAD BEEN TOLD THAT LEE WORKED FOR THE FBI (AND SO LEE WAS THEREBY FREED UP TO DO A LOT OF OTHER THINGS, JUST AS AT REILY'S) HAD NOT STOPPED THE POLICEMAN WHO SHOVED A REVOLVER AT LEE WHILE HE WAS 'DRINKING THE COKE.

==NOTE: LEE TOLD ME HE WAS FREE TO ROAM AWAY FROM THE TSBD WHEN NECESSARY. AND INDEED, RECORDS SHOW THAT LEE'S HOURS WERE BEING PLACED ON HIS TIME CARD WHETHER HE WAS THERE OR NOT, JUST AS AT REILY'S... BECAUSE ON NOV. 22, LEE OSWALD'S TIME CARD WAS FILLED OUT FOR THE WHOLE DAY -- IT SAID OSWALD WORKED A FULL DAY -- EVEN THOUGH LEE HAD BEEN ARRESTED AT THE TEXAS THEATER HOURS EARLIER.

[quote name='Kathleen Collins' post='187518' date='Mar 23 2010, 02:53 AM']I think this is the longest thread ever held in John Simkin's forum. I am skimming it, so I apologize if this question has been asked already.

So imagine how I feel when I read lies that Oswald wanted to kill JFK. The very opposite was the case: he risked his life to try to save him.

JVB

What did Oswald do to save Kennedy's life? How stupid was Oswald? The Presidential motorcade was going to pass where he worked -- didn't he find that suspicious? Handing out leaflets, doing 2 radio shows about communism, etc. Didn't he realize covert agencies were painting him red? He was practically the only one in the TSBD who didn't go out and watch the President go by. Didn't he hear the shots?

Now, what did he do to save Kennedy? Stand there drinking a coke? If he really wanted to be a hero, why didn't he run in front of the limo, yelling, "They're going to kill you," and cover Kennedy's head? Of course the Secret Service would have killed him. But he did nothing to stop the shooting.

Kathy C
[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

Some questions are much more interesting than others, including this extremely interesting question from Bill Kelly. Here I respond and then Judyth replies separately, where her capacity for complex thought is beautifully illustrated by this case. The document was published on prisonplanet.com and I was taken in by assuming it had been released by the ARRB. Some of my reasoning in drawing the inference was that John McCone, the new director of the CIA, does not appear to have been part of the assassination or of the cover up, but who, by being kept in the dark, was impenetrable even when Bobby confronted him in a fashion that he (RFK) believed would reveal the truth about CIA involvement, as David Talbot, BROTHERS, reports, but which was useless when he was dealing with a man who, even though he was its director, was still ignorant of the CIA's own involvement. I thought this looked like something that McCone had written to Rowley, but I now agree that is seems to be an ingenious fake. I wrote to Doug and to Judyth separately, where neither had access to the others views.

JIM RESPONDS TO BILL KELLY:

I added this document to Judyth's post after Lola, my webmaster, had discovered it, since it appeared to be the perfect complement to Judyth's description of Lee's activities and, in my judgment, appeared to be authentic:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/septe...swaldwascia.htm

Bill Kelly has observed that it appears to be fake, so I have consulted Doug Horne about its authenticity, especially since it was my inference that it had been released by the ARRB. Doug explained why he thinks it is a forgery:

I have never heard of this. On the surface it is explosive.

And on the surface, it has some problems:

(1) The information contained should have been classified Top Secret or above, not Confidential.

(2) There are no classification markings on each paragraph, as there should be.

(3) Where is the Record Identification Form (RIF)? It is incumbent on the persons producing this to explain exactly where it came from, and when. IF they can't explain its provenance, it should be treated as disinformation to make the research community begin chasing its own tail, like a mad dog in the summer heat.

(4) The document contains a Secret Service filing number (the CO-2 business), but that does not make sense to me because it is originated by the CIA. I smell a rat.

Doug also remarked that, since this forgery is of enormous interest, it was probably intended to be exposed as a fraud and thereby discredited, with was what I had written to Judyth. It appears to be one of those which, assuming that it is not authentic, presents true content in a fake document, very much as was done in the sting that took down Dan Rather, where he made a report about misconduct by George W. Bush during his service in the Texas Air National Guard, which Dan had verified to be a true verbatim document WITH REGARD TO ITS CONTENT by reviewing it with the secretary who had typed the original, but where it had been retyped using a typewriter that had not been manufactured AT THE DATE OF THE ORIGINAL. Because the document turned out to be fake, the inference was drawn that its content must be false, which, of course, was not the case.

If this document, which came not from Judyth but from prisonplanet, is not authentic, as Bill suggests and as Doug tends to confirm, then it appears to be another example of this very kind, where true content is presented on a fake document in the expectation that the inference will be drawn that the content is also false. But of course the inference that Kelly draws--namely, that if the above bogus document is part of the JVB story, then she is most definitely part of a very complicated psychological warfare operation [like the one that has been] conducted by one Gregory Douglas, one which we are very familiar with and one that is meant to deceive and confuse--sounds rather plausible but is not quite right.

Bill's use of "if" was appropriate, since (1) strictly speaking, it is not "part of the JVB story" as a document, since I was the one who added it as a complement to her post, but (2) where it is "part of the JVB story" in the sense that its content appears to confirm it. But that does not make this document or the post in which it appears "part of a very complicated psychological warfare operation" like the one conducted by Gregory Douglas, which I reviewed on amazon.com and also addressed in assassinationresearch.com 1/2 (2002). It is a devilishly ingenious modus operandi for our consideration:

43 of 55 people found the following review helpful:
1.0 out of 5 stars A fascinating work that appears to be a fraud, March 30, 2002
By James H. Fetzer (Duluth, MN USA) - See all my reviews

REGICIDE promises several new documents related to the death of JFK: (1) an English translation of an (undated) study by the Soviet Union; (2) a 20 April 1978 Defense Intelligence Agency study; (3) a summary of OPERATION ZIPPER dated 22 December 1963; and (4) Gregory Douglas' own critical comments and critique.

These items--(1) through (3)--allegedly came into his possession through a fortuitous encounter with Robert T. Crowley, a former Deputy Director for Operations for the CIA, an expert on Soviet intelligence. Douglas claims to have had extensive conversations with Crowley from 1993 to 1996, when his health took a bad turn. He died in 2000.

According to Douglas, Crowley had taken numerous documents with him upon his retirement from the CIA and occasionally shared them with various historians. As he came to trust Douglas, he became increasingly forthcoming, especially about the sequence of events that led to the death of John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

The Soviet assassination summary includes a three shot sequence with the driver slowing the limousine to a virtual stop, where JFK was hit in the throat from in front, John Connally was hit from above and behind, and JFK was hit in the head from behind.

According to the Soviet study, Lee Oswald was recruited by ONI and used his pseudo-defection as an occasion to convey valuable information about the U-2 program, which subsequently enabled the Soviets to shoot down a plane piloted by Gary Powers.

Oswald had an extensive history with the CIA and later the FBI, where, because of his defection and new persona as a pro-Castro communist sympthizer, he became a useful pawn as the designated patsy when the assassination went down.

Remarkably, the DIA study by Vedder B. Discoll, Colonel, US Army, arrives at many of the same conclusions. It also finds the driver having slowed the vehicle and endorses a three-shot scenario even while rejecting the notion that JFK was shot from above and behind.

The first shot (to the throat) came from the right front, the second (to Connally) from above and behind, and the third (to the right temple) from the right front again, using a .223 calibre weapon loaded with a murcury-filled bullet.

Neither the Soviet nor the DIA study have complete accounts of the shooting sequence, since JFK himself was hit at least four times, including a shot to the throat, a shot to the back, and two shots to the head, as ASSASSINATION SCIENCE and MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA reveal. But there were multiple additional shots.

They are incomparably more accurate than THE WARREN REPORT, but their similar three-shot scenarios raises troubling questions. If eight, nine, or ten shots were in fact fired, as appears to be the case, it is extraordinarily implausible that the Soviets and the DIA would converge on three, rather than more, shot accounts.

The author, ostensibly Chief, Soviet/Warsaw Pact Division of the Directorate for Intelligence Research, is unsparing of THE WARREN REPORT as political propaganda based upon false depictions of the shots and the shooters, especially the "magic bullet" theory as an obvious fabrication, which is certainly correct.

Both studies report that Oswald was homosexual, where the DIA concludes that his intimate relationship with George de Mohrenschild, a CIA operative, infuriated his wife, and that the CIA was willing to give him up to insure that his knowledge of CIA activities be contained.

The DIA study makes it clear that US officials never suspected the Soviet Union of any complicity, including James Jesus Angleton, the Chief of Counterintelligence for the CIA, who may well have personally played a key role in initiating the sequence of events that led to the assassination.

Angleton, who tended toward paranoia, discovered that JFK was sharing highly classified information with Nikita Krushchev, which he regarded as treason. I suspect that JFK was using Krushchev to verify or falsify what he was being told by the CIA, which he knew he could not trust.

Because the CIA and the Mafia both wanted JFK out, it was easy to draw in the mob, which eventually led to the recruitment of French assassins from Marseilles. The FBI was bought on board, then the Vice President, and finally the Joint Chiefs, who were enthusiastic about removing him from office.

The plan to take out JFK was called OPERATION ZIPPER because the target allegedly had trouble keeping his up. According to Douglas, the actual assassination weapons were two 7.65 surplus Argentine Mausers and a specially constructed .223 calibre rifle, which was supplied with mercury-filled bullets.

Serious students of this case will find much here that has the ring of truth. The reconstruction of the shooting falls short on all of these accounts, since we now know much more about what happened in Dealey Plaza and how it was covered up. But those familiar with BLOODY TREASON and BODY OF SECRETS will appreciate the extent to which the big picture fits.

One of the most disturbing aspects of ZIPPER, however, is a set of five appendices (not included) alleged to be photographs of JFK in sexual situations with various of his alleged paramours. These were supposed to have been given out as "momentos", but that defies credulity. What politician would run such a risk? Surely not JFK!

The very existence of the ZIPPER document is likely to generate the most controversy, since it is difficult to imagine that the principals to the assassination would record their meetings about it. This appears to be a case in which documents that appear to be too good to be true are indeed "too good to be true".

Douglas maintains that Crowley's willingness to assist him in these ways was largely motivated by a driving desire to attain a sense of exoneration by explaining why he and others who played crucial roles were convinced that JFK had to be removed. He offers a chilling scenario.

The skeleton of this account may well be true, but the documents on which it is based appear to have been fabricated. The corrupt objective, alas!, may be to present a largely accurate account based upon phoney records, whose exposure as forgeries is meant to discredit the account itself. I wish it were not so, but that is how things appear.

JUDYTH REPLIES TO ME ABOUT THE DOCUMENT:

I AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT, JIM. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT LEAKING A DOCUMENT THAT CONTAINS TRUE INFORMATION
-- A DOCUMENT WHICH CAN LATER BE ASSESSED TO BE FALSE -- THEN LEADS THE READER TO BELIEVE THAT ALL OF THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THE DOCUMENT IS FALSE. WHATEVER IS INSERTED INTO THE DOCUMENT IS THEN CONSIDERED BOGUS.

BUT THIS METHOD ALLOWS TWO THINGS TO HAPPEN:

1) RESEARCHERS WHO BELIEVE THE DOCUMENT IS AUTHENTIC ARE THEREBY DISCREDITED WHEN ITS FALSITY IS PROVEN, THUS DIMINISHING THEIR REPUTATIONS;

2) IF THE TRUTH EVER DOES COME OUT, IT CAN BE SAID THAT A PORTION OF THE DOCUMENT WAS TRUE -- BUT SO WHAT?

MEANWHILE, ALL THE INFORMATION IS PLACED IN A 'SUSPICIOUS' CATEGORY. THIS TAKES EYES AWAY FROM CONSIDERATION OF TRUE FACTS THUS REVEALED, FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCREDITING THEM, AS UNWORTHY OF FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

FRANKLY, IT DID NO HARM TO BE POSTED SINCE, AS A DISINFO PIECE, IT ACTUALLY POINTS OUT WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT.

SOPHISTICATED MEANS WERE USED TO CREATE THE FAKE DOCUMENT, SHOWING US THAT THE CREATOR(S) WELL KNEW WHAT ELEMENTS TO PLACE IN THE DOCUMENT TO MAKE IT APPEAR TRUE.

BUT THE DOCUMENT WAS CLEVERLY CREATED SO THAT ALSO, UPON CLOSE INSPECTION BY PERSONS WE MUST THEN CONSIDER AS EITHER BRILLIANT BUT INNOCENT OR SPECIALLY SELECTED TO 'OUT' THE DOCUMENT AS 'FAKE', IT WOULD FAIL 'AUTHENTICITY' TESTS.

BECAUSE IT WAS STAMPED CONFIDENTIAL' WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN STAMPED AT LEAST 'SECRET' TO ME IS A GIVEAWAY, BUT BILL KELLY WOULD KNOW MORE ABOUT THAT THAN I WOULD....

THE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE ONI I BELIEVE ARE TRUE. LEE SAID HE WAS 'BORROWED' FROM 'ANOTHER AGENCY' TO BE USED BY THE CIA.

SO I REPEAT:

MEANWHILE, ALL THE INFORMATION IN HE DOCUMENT IS NOW PLACED IN A 'SUSPICIOUS' CATEGORY BY RESEARCHERS. THIS REMINDS ME OF A MINK COAT THAT CAN'T BE ADVERTISED AS A MINK COAT BECAUSE 50% OF IT IS MUSKRAT, EVEN THOUGH IT'S 50% MINK -- IT'S STILL A FAKE.

CALLING ALL INFORMATION WITHIN THE FAKE DOCUMENT 'FAKE' TAKES EYES AWAY FROM CONSIDERATION OF TRUE FACTS WITHIN THE FAKE DOCUMENT, POSSIBLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF LEADING INVESTIGATORS AWAY FROM SENSITIVE AND REAL FACTS AS UNWORTHY OF FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

FOR THESE REASONS, I SAY, LET IT STAY, WITH QUALIFYING STATEMENTS:

(1) WHAT IS THE PROVENANCE OF THIS DOCUMENT?

(2) WHO FIRST SAID IT WAS A FAKE?

(3) WHO WAS MOST INTERESTED, AMONG THE WC DEFENDERS, IN PROVING THAT THE DOCUMENT WAS FALSE?

ALL THREE QUESTIONS ARE GREAT CLUES IN DETERMINING THE IMPORTANCE OF THE MATTER.

IT'S ALMOST AS GOOD AS A FAKE DOCUMENT AS IT IS AS AN AUTHENTIC ONE, AS IT CAN GIVE US LEADS AS TO LINKS TO DISINFO ARTISTS AND THEIR COMPATRIOTS IN THE MISCHIEF.

JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION...I DEFER TO THOSE WHO KNOW MORE...

JVB

[quote name='William Kelly' post='187520' date='Mar 23 2010, 03:28 AM'][quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='187508' date='Mar 22 2010, 11:16 PM']
ADDENDUM TO THE LAST POST FROM JUDYTH FOR JACK:

NOTE: Lola had asked Judyth for clarification about the final part of
this post, which has now arrived. So I am adding it for completeness.
Replace the original from the image of the document and continue with
the following:



You see, he was never fully trusted, he said, because he returned alive from the USSR.

And the USSR, perceiving that he was alive, might go through and double check all he had done. Once he risked his life to go to Moscow. He also spoke to Powers who was shot down (U2 incident) but I failed to ask if it was in person or by phone, darn it...

Lee and I became very close. I never could hear enough. He was not a talkative man, but eventually that changed as we grew closer. What impressed me the most was his appreciation of Kennedy and his loyalty to him. I had come from hostile anti-Kennedy territory in Florida, with anti-Castroites among my college friends, and he convinced me of JFK's courage and great capacity to make a difference in the country.

He despised LBJ and Nixon. He saw George Smathers, whom I had praised, as a traitor to Kennedy because Smathers was a segregationist who cow-towed constantly to LBJ. So imagine how I feel when I read lies that Oswald wanted to kill JFK. The very opposite was the case: he risked his life to try to save him.

I am grateful to Abraham Bolden for mentioning "Lee" as the informant to the FBI who saved Kennedy in Chicago. Lee told me he had worked hard to save Kennedy and had succeeded in one instance, which I reported to Shackelford and Platzman in 1999, as well as to "60 Minutes". Bolden confirmed that a "Lee" saved JFK from assassination in Chicago.

This makes sense to me, as Dr. Mary Sherman had many contacts in Chicago, coming originally from University of Chicago, and he said he relied on contacts to get the message through. He also dared to send some death threats as Dallas approached, hoping to get more security for JFK.

He was also present at the Stevenson UN Day event in Dallas when Stevenson was physically attacked by being spat upon and hit with a signboard during his speech. Lee had helped as one of the demonstrators and hoped the incident would increase security levels on JFK, for he knew if JFK made it to Dallas, he would have difficulty getting out alive unless extraordinary measures were taken.

He had penetrated (or was lured) into what he described as an assassination ring. The last meeting I knew of occurred on Sunday evening, the week before he assassination. He said he had never seen the individual he met a that time before. He wondered if they met so the character would be able to kill him on the 22nd...

We talked about an hour and a half his last call, which ended about 37 1/2 hours before the assassination, ending very early Thursday AM... He wanted to spend Thursday night with his babies and Marina... He wept, and said he would be there to tell them goodbye.

JVB[/quote]

If the above bogus document is part of the JVB story, then she is most definately part of a very complicated psychological warfare operation that is being conducted by one Gregory Douglas, one which we are very familiar with and one that is meant to decieve and confuse.

BK
[/quote]