Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH COMMENTS ON "THE HUNTING PHOTO" AND ON ROBERT OSWALD



This, of course, is Jack's work and Jack's caption and, in case anyone has
missed it, I suspect Robert of playing a key role--both as an impersonator
and as a conspirator--implicating his brother for a crime he did not commit.

From Judyth's excerpts from Robert's Warren Commission testimony, it is
apparent that he was deliberately casting his brother in an unfavorable light.
No Marine could confound an "undesirable" with a "dishonorable" discharge.

JUDYTH COMMENTS:

JACK WHITE MENTIONS THE "HUNTING PHOTO" -- BUT DOES NOT GIVE US ITS
PROVENANCE. GERALD POSNER ("CASE CLOSED") WAS GIVEN THE "HUNTING
PHOTO" FOR USE IN HIS BOOK (A BOOK FILLED WITH LIES ABOUT OSWALD):

"...the first of two photographs appearing in Gerald Posner's book "Case Closed."
It shows Oswald with a severe Marines-style haircut, dressed in casual clothes,
standing alone in a field, clutching what appears to be some sort of rifle (32).
He is holding the weapon by his left side in a very relaxed manner. The caption
reads: "A rare photo of Lee hunting while on his first leave from the
Marines in February 1958, when he visited his family in Fort Worth, Texas.
The photograph appears courtesy of Robert L Oswald (Lee's elder brother)."
During his periods of leave, Lee would hunt squirrels and other game with
Robert (33), but does not appear among the Warren Commission Exhibits.
We are mystified by Mr. Posner's statement that this photograph was taken
during Oswald's first leave in February 1958. (34) Oswald did not have to
wait 16 months for his first leave <http://www.jfklancer.com/byphotos.html>.

Robert Oswald cooperated with Gerald Posner in assassinating Lee's character.

AN FBI TAPE SUPPOSEDLY CAUGHT ROBERT OSWALD MAKING LOVE WITH MARINA
... THAT INFO VANISHED FROM THE INTERNET...EXCEPT FOR A SOLE REFERENCE I
FOUND IN NEWSGROUP POSTS ...

BELOW, WE LEARN THAT ROBERT OSWALD PICKED UP THE LAST OF THE THINGS
FROM RUTH PAINE'S HOME THAT BELONGED TO LEE (MARINA WAS WITH HIM AT
THE TIME, ALONG WITH HER LOVER, HER MANAGER, MR. MARTIN, WHOM SHE
WOULD SOON LEAVE TO STAY WITH ROBERT OSWALD -- HE SAYS FOR ONE DAY):

From Ruth Paine's W/C testimony.

Mr Liebler, "Did you have anything left in your house that belonged to Lee Harvey
Oswald?"

Mrs Paine, "No, they were eventually taken by Robert Oswald, in company with John
Thorne & Jim Martin, it was probably the first W/E in December at least two weeks
after the assassination, more likely three."

Mr Liebler, "Do you recall what was among those things that Robert Oswald, and Mr
Martin took?"

Mrs Paine, "They took the clothes from the closet, boxes and things that I did not look
into. I have heard from the police that it also included an old camera, WHICH THEY
HAD TOO CHASE LATER, AND WENT UP TO ROBERT OSWALD'S TO FIND IT....

Now, if she's telling the truth, how did she know the police had to go looking for
the incriminating camera, and went "up to Robert Oswald's to find it"?

ONE NEWSGROUP POST SAID:

1 Given that the DPD had gone over Oswaldss things with a fine-toothed comb, how
did they miss this camera?

2 Given that they had to chase it up, Robert had obviously not informed that he had it,
so who did?

3 [Ruth Paine deposed:] "They took clothes from the closet, boxes and things that I did
not look into." Right you have given bed and board to the most infamous man in the world,
yet you dont bother to have a look at his possessions when the chance presents itself...

See anything green....

THERE ARE OTHER PROBLEMS WITH ROBERT....BELOW IS MOST OF ROBERT OSWALD'S
INTERVIEW WITH FRONTLINE, "WHO WAS LEE OSWALD?", WITH MY ADDED COMMENTS:

"You see him for a few days when he gets out [of the Marines]. Tell me about that, and what
his attitude is and the kinds of things you talked about.

"When Lee is discharged, early discharge in September 1959..."

[[JVB: Robert should know that Lee was not discharged, but placed in the Marine
Reserves, a bit early...]]

"...he returns to Fort Worth for about three days. …"

[[Robert Oswald should know that Lee spent only one or two days with his mother.]]

"...We spent some time together. He was relaxed, but at about the second day, he starts talking
about where he's going. He's thinking about going to Cuba...."

[[Lee told me that he did not breathe a word as to his intentions to anybody in the family..]]

"...He wants to "do like Hemingway." He wants to get some experience and write about it. …"

[[Robert is just starting this interview and uses 'Hemingway' -- but Lee told me 'Hemingway' was
a code word he was told to use. So why is it coming out of Robert Oswald's mouth?]]

"....His plans, as we well know now, were already made to go to Russia, rather than to Cuba. … But
then, Oct. 31, we hear that he's in Russia. That's the shocker. That's almost unbelievable. This was
1959. The Cold War was going on. He was just out of the Marine Corps. It just didn't fit. I know he
wanted to travel. ... But my goodness, this is completely out of the ballpark."

[[Lee had already done considerable "traveling" and could have stayed in the Marnes to keep doing more.]]

You don't think that there was any possibility that he was on some mission when he went to Russia?

[[Strikingly, Robert Oswald acts as if he can read his brother's mind, saying there was 'definitely' no
possibility that his brother was on a mission... yet he says he was shocked that Lee went to Russia.]]

"Definitely not. This was something all his own. This was his grand experience at the time. I anticipated,
and I said to the family, "He'll be back within a year." Well, it took him a little bit longer than that, but he
started trying after a year to come back."

When you learned he had defected, did you have any explanation?

"I wasn't real sure what the explanation was. ... I was just completely in the dark. Apparently he'd been
planning this for a long time. ... The planning that Lee did probably at least extended all the way back to
the time he was in Japan ... because of the clothes he purchased at the time."

[[Yet Robert is certain Lee was on no mission, though he offers evidence of long planning to go to Russia.]]

"If it didn't work for Russia, he was going to stay in Europe anyway. He'd actually applied for Albert
Schweitzer's school in Switzerland, and been accepted for that summertime or fall semester. So, to me,
that was his back-up plan if everything else failed. Those are the indications that say he took some thought,
some planning over a long period of time. ..."

From Russia, he had written you, saying that he was worried about charges being brought against him
when he came back. What was his concern?

"Well, his concern was, was there anything that I was aware of that [there] were going to be charges
placed against him from anybody? This would have to be at the federal level. I wrote him back that, to
my knowledge, nothing he has done warrants any charges, because they did not let him accomplish
anything over there, i.e., the U.S. Embassy did not accept his citizenship rejection. They didn't finalize
that. He was, in fact, an American citizen all the time, and still had the rights of the American citizen.'

[[Robert Oswald is saying he knew this Embassy information--and wrote about it to Oswald?]]

But he had said he was going to give the Russians any information he had, and it seemed like he did.

"As far as Lee giving any information to the Russians while he was over there, even though he said he
would if they had asked, apparently they weren't interested in it. Now apparently, for whatever reasons
or however they checked it out, they found out whatever he knew wasn't necessarily anything they'd be
interested in."

[[OK, we'll take Robert's word for it...]]

With regard to his return home from Russia in June 1962 with his family -- what did he tell you about
reporters meeting him, and what do you think it really meant?

"He indicated that, if reporters were asking about when he's coming back, to say nothing. He wanted
not to be bothered by the reporters. But ... he had prepared answers and statements, anticipating
reporters either at the ship or some place down the line on the return. I think he was surprised when
he stepped off the plane in Dallas Field -- he asked me, "What, no reporters?" I said, "Yes. I've managed
to keep it quiet." That was it. But I think he was disappointed. He was ready."

Did he talk about the Russian system and the American system and comparing the two?

"When Lee got back from Russia, the way he talked about the Russian system, he didn't talk about
it politically, in the sense that he was wrapped up in communism or Marxism. He was making fun of
how inept they were, and he was making fun of them all the time. ...He wasn't political. He really
wasn't. I say that in all honesty,..."

[[Lee must have told some of his very humorous jokes about the USSR to Robert...]]

"...because he tried to become what he needed to be to achieve his immediate objectives; i.e., he
needed to be a Marxist and accept the Russians [to] get the experience in Russia. When he returned
to the United States, he didn't want to be a Russian. He wanted to be an American, to be accepted by
the American society, and so wherever he was ... he wanted to be accepted. He wasn't political.
He was what's convenient to be."

[[The malice in this statement is barely concealed, IMHO]]

So you're saying, in a sense, he is the ultimate pragmatist?

"I think it says that he is very pragmatic, and he's going to go with the punches. He's going to fit in
to where he needs to fit in to accomplish what he needs to accomplish ... "

[[This is hardly unacceptable behavior -- nor suggestive of the ambitions of a "lone assassin" JHF]]

"...what is very essential to get by with, to be somebody. That's what it comes down to -- he wanted
to be unique, by whatever it took..."

[[But Lee Oswald WAS already unique...Was his brother jealous of that?]]

When Lee came back, how did he react to visits from the FBI when they came and saw him here?

"After Lee's return, approximately two weeks, in the latter part of June 1962, he gets a call from one
of the FBI agents -- I believe that was Mr. Fain -- in wanting to have a meeting with him. He told me
about it, and I told him I'd go with him. He said no, that wasn't necessary, he could take care of it. ...
He went the following day, had the meeting. When I returned home from work that evening, I asked
him about it, and he said, "Well, everything went all right. They even asked me if I'd ever been an
agent of the federal government or the CIA." I said, "What did you tell them?" He says,"Well, don't
you know?" and he just laughed. I mean, they had asked the wrong man. There's another seed that's
planted in him that stayed there forever."

[[How peculiar! Robert says his brother asks, "Well, don't you know?" That doesn't sound like the
answer one would expect from a 'non-agent']]

What do you mean? What did he have in the back of his mind?

"If they didn't know who worked for them, he could always say he worked for them; ..."

[[Robert Oswald is implying that Lee Oswald would play the game of pretending to be an FBI agent..or..
CIA?...His line of reasoning here is strange and illogical and appears to be deceptive...]]

"...he was in control of the FBI then. They didn't know for sure if he was an agent or not...."

[[Yet another illogical and suspicious statement made because he got himself into a linguistic jam
further up about relating that his brother was laughing about, "Don't you know?"]]

"...He was toying with them. He toyed with people like that...."

[[A surprisingly snide statement from a brother...]]

"...He toyed with the interrogators down at the Dallas police station, all that weekend [after the
assassination]. It was a game to him...."

[[Beaten, friendless, alone, surrounded by frowning police, sleepless, accused of slaying a police
officer and then the President--he TOYS with his interrogators? The statement is malicious.]]

"He knew something they didn't know, and he would keep it to himself. He was in control. ..."

[[Lee knew a coup occurred and that people would die if he broke under interrogation. He was
handcuffed, sleep-deprived, indicted without legal representation in "short and sweet" hearings--
hardly 'in control' of anything but his own self-discipline, not to break under pressure...]]

When Lee came back to Fort Worth, what kind of spirits was he in, and what kind of hopes did he
have for his new life here?

<snip>

"...The third thing was he wanted to look into his dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps,..."

[[The ex-Marine, Robert Oswald, tells an important TV program interviewer that his brother had a
'dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps.' This is untrue, and Robert knows the difference. Lee
had an 'undesirable' discharge, much less serious...We now understand that Robert is interested in
placing his brother in a bad light.]]

...because he felt like that was unwarranted ... because, i.e., he was released with honorable conditions.
We talked about this at a great length during that first week."

[[Here Robert Oswald shows that he knew Lee had an undesirable discharge--he could not have 'talked
about this at a great length' and FORGOTTEN that his brother did not have the onerous 'dishonorable'
discharge on his record.]]

Conclusion: Robert Oswald is displaying a considerable degree of malice toward his brother, Lee Oswald.

JVB

[James H. Fetzer]

JIM RESPONDS TO JACK WHITE WITH A FEW QUESTIONS OF HIS OWN

That does appear to be a lapse. But I'm not sure what to make of it, since in the
same post discussing Robert she explains that Lee received an "undesirable" and
not a "dishonorable" discharge, as you are observing here. I'll ask her about this.

I have two questions for you. In post #756, you remark, relative to the question
of Lee's driving ability, you state (categorically), "I do NOT GRANT that JVB knows
more about Lee's driving than John Armstrong". Aren't you simply assuming this?

In particular, IF JUDYTH'S STORY IS CORRECT AND SHE ACTUALLY DROVE PLACES
WITH THE MAN SHE KNEW AS "LEE", WOULD YOU THEN GRANT THAT SHE KNOWS
MORE ABOUT LEE'S DRIVING THAN JOHN ARMSTRONG? Would you admit as much?

Howard Platzman and I had an interesting conversation today. He told me that he
and Martin Shackelford subjected Judyth to multiple forms of questioning and that,
when "60 Minutes" took an interest, CBS also conducted an investigation of its own.

Martin obtained a copy of Mary Ferrell's chronology of the activities of the man she
knew as "Lee" in New Orleans, but he did not share it with her. He spent a lot of
time asking her about what Lee was doing on specific dates and she answered him.

She was very successful in matching the Ferrell chronology. Martin thought that he
had nailed her on mistakes on two occasions. But it turned out that those were days
when the Ferrell chronology was blank. So Judyth apparently was filling in the blanks.

Is there any quantity or quality of evidence such that, were it to be produced, would
be sufficient to convince you that there is the POSSIBILITY that Judyth might be "the
real deal", even if you could care less and can't imagine why it should matter at all?

[quote name='Jack White' post='188717' date='Apr 4 2010, 05:41 AM'][[JVB: Robert should know that Lee was not discharged, but placed in the Marine
Reserves, a bit early...]]

Lee Harvey Oswald received an UNDESIRABLE DISCHARGE from the Marines.[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

JIM REPLIES TO JACK ABOUT WHETHER LEE COULD DRIVE

READ THE BOOK! READ THE BOOK! So I start reading the book and discover right away the assertion that Allan Dulles was so clever in manipulating the Warren Commission with regard to the CIA that "in its 26 volumes, the name of the CIA does not even appear in its index"! Maybe you missed the post in which I observed (1) that the 26 supporting volumes does not even have an index and that (2) that the 888-page summary report, known as THE WARREN REPORT, does have an index, where the CIA is listed at least two dozen times! That is not the kind of discovery that inspires confidence in HARVEY & LEE.

Moreover, Armstrong's methodology appears to have been to vacuum up every document he could find in the public domain. You have told me that meant the existence of these documents could not be challenged because they are all in the public domain. But when I asked what principle of selection had been used to determine which were not only (3) authentic documents but also had (4) accurate content, you remained silent. It is as though you and John were oblivious of "The Mighty Wurlitzer' being played by Frank Wisner to flood the media with stories concocted by and managed by the CIA!

Now I discover that, in relation to the question of whether or not the man Judyth knew in New Orleans could or could not drive, you offer (what you imply to be) the definitive testimony of Ruth Paine and of Marina Oswald, yet at the bottom of the post, you include a table with the names of THIRTY-TWO other witnesses who have reported that they had either seen him drive or knew he had the ability to drive. I am sure you are going to resolve this contradiction by appealing to "Harvey" and "Lee". But, frankly, Jack, this looks like a ruse to draw attention from the real "two Oswalds", Robert and Lee!

So far as I am able to discern, HARVEY & LEE begins with a blunder and was created in fashion that was methodologically unsound--at least to the extent to which no effort appears to have been expended to sort out the true documents from the false, the accurate records from the inaccurate, and the genuine photos from the fake. IF YOU WANT ME TO TAKE ANY OF THIS SERIOUSLY, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO ADDRESS THESE QUESTIONS. How can anyone claim to be an expert on the assassination when they do not even know the difference between the 26 supporting volumes and the summary report?

Why you display such an arrogant and insulting attitude toward Judyth when this book to which you constantly refer commits such a grevious blunder from scratch is beyond me. And to continue to insist that there actually were "two Oswalds" when Judyth has already shown that some of the photos that you have taken for granted are suspect and when the documentary trail on which you rely may have been deliberately created as a false history so the man she knew could eventually return to a normal life in society simply astounds me. Judyth has her flaws, no doubt, but your position is hopelessly indefensible.

[quote name='Jack White' post='188767' date='Apr 4 2010, 04:04 PM']Marina Oswald and Ruth and Michael Paine all told the Warren Commission in no uncertain terms that Lee Harvey Oswald did not drive an automobile and did not have a driver's license. But John Armstrong has found many witnesses who said Oswald did drive, including a former employee of the Texas Department of Public Safety License Records Department who issued a signed statement to a Garrison investigator stating that she had processed Oswald's returned driver's license after he was killed. This article explores these seeming contradictions.

Marina Oswald repeatedly told the Warren Commission that her husband did not drive. For example:

Mrs. OSWALD. Never. No; this is all not true. In the first place, my husband couldn't drive, and I was never alone with him in a car. Anytime we went in a car it was with Ruth Paine, and there was never--we never went to any gun store and never had any telescopic lens mounted.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the four of you, that is, your husband, you, and your two children, ever go alone any place in Irving?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Irving the baby was only 1 month old. I never took her out anywhere.

Representative FORD. Did you ever go anytime----

Mrs. OSWALD. Just to doctor, you know.

Representative FORD. Did you ever go anytime with your husband in a car with the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was never at anytime in a car with my husband and with a rifle. Not only with the rifle, not even with a pistol. Even without anything I was never with my husband in a car under circumstances where he was driving a car. (WC V, 401)

Michael Paine also indicated several times that Lee Harvey Oswald did not drive. For example:

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive a car?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. (WC II, 413)

In her Warren Commission testimony, Ruth Paine stated that as late as the weekend before the assassination of JFK, Oswald had failed to obtain a learner's permit so that he could eventually acquire a valid Texas driver's license.

Mr. JENNER. You did talk with him on the telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. I am certain that I talked with him, that he was surprised that he didn't need a car. I had to tell him that he didn't need a car to take with him to take his test.

Mr. JENNER. Take his initial test?

Mrs. PAINE. Take his test, and suggested that he go from Dallas himself to take this test. Then he called us Saturday afternoon of the 16th to say he had been and tried to get his driver's permit but that he had arrived before closing time but still to late to get in because there was a long line ahead of him, the place having been closed both the previous Saturday for election day and the following Monday, the 11th, Veterans Day. There were a lot of people who wanted to get permits and he was advised that it wouldn't pay him to wait in line. He didn't have time to be tested.

Mr. JENNER. Could you help us fix, can you recall as closely as possible the day of the week, this is the weekend of the assassination, was it not?

Mrs. PAINE. The weekend before.

Mr. JENNER. The weekend before, and this conversation you are now relating that you had with him in which he said that he had gone to the driver's license station, when did that conversation with you take place?

Mrs. PAINE. That conversation was with Marina, and she told me about it.

Mr. JENNER. When did she tell you about it?

Mrs. PAINE. He called her, it must have been Saturday afternoon, soon after he had been, he went Saturday morning and they closed at noon.

Mr. JENNER. I see. This was the weekend he did not come out to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. This was the weekend he did not come out. (WC II, 516)[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH DISCUSSES LEE'S "MISSING TOOTH" AND DAVID FERRIE

NOTE: Judyth has provided much more about the man she know and his activities,
including information that helps to round out our understanding of his life in New
Orleans. Lee had met David Ferrie even before he joined the Marine Corps and, as
"The Many Faces of Lee Harvey Oswald" suggests, their relationship may have been
one of the factors that would contribute to his becoming involved in covert activities.
When he returned to New Orleans in 1963, he resumed his relationship with Ferrie.
Part of this was a bit garbled, so Judyth will review it and correct it as appropriate.
Her discussion of "the missing tooth" removes another prop from "HARVEY & LEE".

JUDYTH ADDRESSES "THE MISSING TOOTH":

We have to use some common sense when it comes to claiming that the Oswald skull
should have had a missing tooth. This implies that “Harvey” lost his tooth, which is
supported by one of the photographs that appears in the White/Armstrong collection:



which appears to be contradicted by the denture of the skull that was later exhumed:



But the apparent contradiction arises from considering only two of three possibilities:

1) never replaced it and went with an unnoticed hole in his mouth the rest of his life

2) had an expensive implant done at some time after it was knocked out

Or the real answer—

3) a teenager who cared about losing a front tooth followed directions given to him and
placed the knocked-out tooth in a half-pint carton of milk, or other container and, as
soon as he could, went to the dentist and has the tooth reseated in his mouth.

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING SUPPORTING EVIDENCE;

We have a dental bill paid by his aunt on record and her version of what happened:

"Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o’clock, and there were boys
in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, “Lee,” and when
he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth
through the lip, so she had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist,
and I paid for the dentist bill myself, and that’s all I know about that, and he
was not supposed to have started any of that [fighting] at that time.

"Now, at the Beauregard School at that time, they had a very low standard,
and I had no children going there and never did. My children went to Jesuit
High and Loyola University, but they did have a very bad bunch of boys going
to Beauregard and they were always having fights and ganging up on other
boys, and I guess Lee wouldn’t take anything, so he got in several scrapes like
that."

Lee told me that Dave Ferrie had hit him in the mouth, too, and I do not wish to
argue whether it occurred before or after the hit to the mouth at Beauregard School.
I am not responsible for the exact timing. Why? I wasn’t given enough details and
got jumped on for trying to establish a date. I was simply trying to establish the
dates for two incidents that occurred, concerning Lee getting hit in the front of his
mouth. But exactly which incident occurred first, I don’t know.

1) One incident involved Dave Ferrie beating Lee because Lee thought Ferrie was
making a pass at him, and it infuriated Ferrie; Lee had gone on Ferrie’s Harley
motorcycle to Dave’s house after a CAP meeting. I brought up the ownership of
the Harley and nobody said a peep, but then later Blackburst posted mention of it.
Nevertheless, they said Ferrie could not have known Lee. That’s simply not true.

Ferrie then became terrified as he realized Lee’s mother was dating organized crime
people. He begged Lee not to tell. Lee said, “I never want to see your ugly face again.”
The incident loosened Lee’s tooth and there was a deep cut in the gum that needed
a stitch. Ferrie was afraid Lee might lose it, so he gave Lee some money and I was
under the impression that Dave said he advised Lee that, if it did fall out, he should
put it into milk to save the tooth and get a dentist to reseat it. I always remember
such medical details. Lee told me that he was anxious to save the tooth, but didn’t
tell me if it fell out or not—we got distracted and began talking about how Ferrie
decided to help Lee get early into the Marines, he was so impressed because Lee
never told on him (it didn’t work).

2) Another incident involve a kid who walked up to Lee at school and smacked him
in the face--and others have details about that… Lee’s tooth, I was told, was knocked
out by his blow. I decided that would not have happened unless Dave Ferrie’s hit to
the mouth hadn’t loosened it. But I could have been the other way around, that the
tooth had been reseated and was still loose when Ferrie hit him, and there was danger
it would fall out.

The fact is, though the tooth was knocked out, Lee Oswald, a teenager, had the tooth
saved in milk. I may have mixed up such small details and it happened that a teacher
told him to save it in milk, but save it in milk he did.

Note that reseating a tooth does not mean that it will reseat ‘straight’ due to bone
damage. And indeed, that bone damage was noted on the exhumation dental record
where it says #9 tooth was ROTATED – moved out of its original position.

Are we being asked to believe that “Harvey” Oswald had a false tooth nobody
knew about? Because later photos show no missing tooth. We are told that this
is a way to distinguish LEE from HARVEY.

JUDYTH ELABORATES UPON THE STORY OF LEE'S "MISSING TOOTH":

Here's the photo showing Lee with possible missing tooth (again)—but would he have
just thrown the tooth away? That’s not what he told me. He said he saved it in some
milk and I believed it was after lunchtime, but perhaps it was after school, that his
mother came for him and took him to the dentist. There was some worry that the
tooth would turn black, but it did not. It was saved.





Interestingly, there is a large bulge in Lee Oswald’s pocket. He told me he saved the
tooth in milk, and I decided to blow up the photo—no, you can tell what he blob is,
except that its general shape is octagonal...The same shape as a milk carton with both
both ends pulled out…Just a thought…a mere conjecture, but this might be the milk
carton with Oswald’s tooth inside….

To believe that HARVEY Oswald went all his life without a front tooth being detected as
missing defies logic. And because I learned that Dave Ferrie and Lee Oswald actually
became friends over his incident—Ferrie had intended no harm he said—Lee had gone
to be by himself upstairs to look a Ferrie’s scientific stuff in a upper room, while Ferrie
had a party going on for he CAP boys—they all left and Lee needed a ride home…Dave
came up to get him, and Lee saw him lock he door…Dave said the door-locking was
automatic and he did not mean to frighten Lee, who knocked out a window with his
elbow and grabbed a piece of glass o defend himself. Dave was then furious and
decided to teach Oswald a lesson.

ON THE SCIENCE OF SAVING DISLODGED TEETH:



A tooth inserted into the space and kept in the socket can also survive. Lee may be
holding the tooth temporarily in his left hand. He had about two hours to get to a
dentist from the time the tooth was knocked out, to save it. Obviously, he met the
timeline, and we have the dental record showing the “rotated” notation to prove it.

SOME DENTAL REFERENCES:

“a tooth that suffers physical trauma but does not necessarily break can become
rotated or shifted, occlusally…” www.dental--health.com/bad_teeth_broken.html
(“avulsed” tooth means “knocked –out” tooth) Exarticulation (”avulsed tooth”).
3 Post trauma complications ... 180 degrees rotated
www.jokstad.no/avulsed.pdf

Live Well Live Long
Avulsed (dislodged) teeth. A whole permanent tooth that is ... to its placement so
that it looks like it is in its normal position (i.e. not rotated). ...
www.livewelllivelong.com/Dental%20health.html

12 Jun 2008 ... The occlusal and mandibular planes were rotated more ....
of coconut water: a new storage media for avulsed teeth in Triple O Feb 2008 issue ...
www.healthmantra.com/blog/2008_06_01_archive.html

[James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH DISCUSSES "THE HEIGHT OF THE LIBRARY" QUESTION

NOTE: Why am I not surprised that Barb would post something completely
irrelevant to distract attention from the blockbuster post I have just made
about the "missing tooth"? Even Dean Hagerman piles on with the usual
suspects, who salivate over the very prospect that Judyth might have a
lapse regarding some detail or other. That Judyth is offering substantial,
detailed information about Lee's "missing tooth"--which she obviously did
not read in any books, as Jack likes to maintain--is given short shrift with
this crowd, whose bias oozes from their every pore. What astonishes me
is not that she may occasionally have some detail wrong, but how much
she has to tell us about crucial issues that comes from no other source.
This is extraordinarily strong evidence that she is indeed "the real deal".

This post, by the way, was sent to me on March 15 independent of this.
From the extract from a thread started by Martin Shackelford back on
15 May 2008, Judyth mistakenly described the library as having five
floors when it only had three. That is the sum and substance of what
Dean Hagerman has asked, "What is she going to say to get out of this
one?" The answer appears to be that the library was under construction
at the time and she did not explore the whole structure and therefore
she made a mistake in attributing to the building the wrong number of
floors! So the answer to Dean's breathless question is, Judyth made a
trivial mistake! What I think is more relevant is why Barb Junkkarinen
held this back until we had a blockbuster about Lee's "missing tooth"?

Why should this rather minor detail about the height of a building under
construction be such a major event when the fact that John Armstrong
doesn't know the difference between the 26 supporting volumes and
THE WARREN REPORT and falsely claims that Dulles was so skillful in
managing the commission that he was able to exclude any mention of
the CIA from its index! Since the 26 volumes HAD NO INDEX but the
888-page REPORT has an index, which actually includes around TWO
DOZEN ENTRIES about the CIA, he committed an egregious blunder. It
simply astounds me that this gross blunder by Armstrong is accepted
without comment, yet the least trivial mistake is used to trash Judyth.

JUDYTH RESPONDS IN AN EMAIL DATED 15 MARCH 2010:

DEAR JIM AND LOLA: MY SHORT TERM MEMORY PROBLEMS ARE TAKEN
ADVANTAGE OF BY BARB TO 'PROVE' I AM A LIAR. BUT IF YOU CAREFULLY
INSPECT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY, I THINK YOU'LL SEE IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE
TO ACCESS BOOKS AS EASILY AS SHE WANTS IT TO LOOK.

IRONICALLY, THE BOOKS WERE ACTUALLY ON THE FIRST FLOOR---
SOMETHING BARB DID NOT BOTHER TO DO RESEARCH ON, OR SURELY SHE
WOULD HAVE NAILED ME TO A CROSS.

HOWEVER, I DID NOT KNOW IT! IT IS A VERY LARGE LIBRARY AND I WAS
PHYSICALLY LIMITED IN MY ABILITY TO GET AROUND. I HAD TO OVERCOME
A BACK OPERATON FOR A RECONSTRUCTION OF MY BACK IN THE 80S. A
FALL WOULD ALMOST CRIPPLE ME. WALKING VERY FAR WAS OUT OF THE
QUESTION. CLIMBING STAIRS WAS AGONY.

ANYWAY, I LIVE WITH IT AND AM MUCH STRONGER NOW, DUE TO MANY
EXERCISES, AND CAN WALK FOR MILES, BUT IT TOOK YEARS OF HARD WORK.

"THE 26 VOLUMES" -- THAT IS WHAT THEY WERE CALLED WHEN MENTIONED BY
SHACKELFORD AND PLATZMAN -- I FINALLY FOUND THE WARREN COMMISSION
REPORT,BUT IT WAS IN A BOX SOMEWHERE! -- THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID!

THE 26 VOLUMES ARE CALLED "THE WARREN COMMISSION HEARINGS AND
EXHIBITS" [NOTE: WHICH, OF COURSE, IS THEIR OFFICIAL NAME]. BELIEVE
IT OR NOT, THEY WERE NOT LISTED IN THE LIBRARY UNDER "26 VOLUMES"
OR [AS ASSOCIATED WITH] "THE WARREN COMMISSION REPORT".

MAYBE THEY ARE NOW, OF COURSE, BUT, AT THE TIME, THE CARD SYSTEM
WAS BEING TURNED INTO A COMPUTER SYSTEM. THEY WERE RIGHT THERE
ON THE GROUND FLOOR, AND I NEVER KNEW IT. IT TURNS OUT THAT THE
LIBRARY HAD A "U.S. ARCHIVES" SECTION I HAD ENTIRELY OVERLOOKED.

BARB MAY IMMEDIATELY DECLAR THAT I "LIED"...SIGH.. BUT IT IS TRUE
THAT I DIDN'T ACCESS THE DARNED THINGS UNTIL I WAS TOLD THEY WERE
ALSO AVAILABLE AT THE PUBLIC LIBRARY.

FROM A PAST THREAD BY MARTIN SHACKELFORD ABOUT THE LIBRARY

JUDYTH: The U of Louisiana, Lafayette Library

Martin Shackelford started a new thread titled "Judyth Baker on the Queen of
Spades" on alt.assassination.jfk, posting this snippet from a statement by
Judyth on May 15, 2008:

From: "Martin Shackelford" <mshack4@sbcglobal.net>
Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk
Subject: Judyth Baker on the Queen of Spades
Date: 15 May 2008 10:36:35 -0400

the gray book:
At U LA, if you didn't know the name of a book, you couldn't get it
brought down...not knowing what was up there, i could not ask for
it...the library under reconstruction and elevators not working, i was
confined to the first floor for a year....

[Louis] Girdler asked the librarian specifically for a book with "The
Queen of Spades" in it and she described it....but he's such a silly
goose, as he didn't require her to find a book written in russian...my
bad back made it impossible to climb the many stairs to the fourth or
fifth floor...impossible... but what's important is that the ONLY
Russian Pushkin they had up there with the requisite short story the
Queen of Spades--had a RED cover. I described, as you know, a gray
cover. Furthermore, the red cover was a hardback, not floppy.

Judyth has long made claims, as has Martin, that Judyth had done no
research before she came forth with her story ... Judyth noting that
she had no access as the library at the university was undergoing
remodeling/construction for a year (completed in 2000), there was no
elevator service and she couldn't get to an upper floor where any such
materials were kept because her back probs prevented her from climbing
the stairs.

The quote above is a nice short, concise one that contains her 2
claims about the library:

1. There was no elevator service for a year during the
remodel/construction, and ...

2. The library was 5 stories high.

I spoke to Sandy in the reference section of the library on June 8,
2009. She was working there at the time of the remodeling/construction
10 years ago ... before it, through it, and to this day. She told me:

1 .The library is now and was 3 stories. The remodeling doubled the
size of the library by adding an addition ... but the number of floors
stayed the same.

2. There was always at least one elevator available throughoutt the
construction/remodel which lasted well over a year. "Oh, gosh, yes"
was her reply to my question as to whether or not elevator service
remained intact during that long time. There is what she called "a
set" of elevators ... the set being two elevators side by side. At
least one was always available.

Here are links to information about the library on the university
website ... as well as the floor plan.

About the library
http://library.louisiana.edu/General/about.shtml

Floor plans
http://library.louisiana.edu/General/floor.shtml

Some details about the construction project here:
http://www.llaonline.org/fp/files/pubs/n...s_0201.pdf

Page 3:

"The library was officially
dedicated in a festive ceremony on
Friday, October 27, 2000. The
construction and renovation project
was begun in September of 1997. In the
next three year period 88,000 square feet of
new space were added to the library and 90
percent of the existing 125,000 square feet of
old space was refurbished and renovated. The
library was open to the patrons during the
entire construction period; library services were
available to the students and faculty even
during days of noise and dust.
The dedication ceremony was ..."

Barb :-)

[quote name='Barb Junkkarinen' post='188785' date='Apr 4 2010, 06:04 PM'][quote name='Pamela McElwain-Brown' post='188765' date='Apr 4 2010, 04:02 PM']With all due respect, you seem to be blindly enabling the blocking of a valid research process. Anyone who attempts to manipulate research by using personal attacks accomplishes nothing. Lifton's LHO timeline information unfortunately is tainted by his bias against Judyth. Lifton may be slinking away because he grabbed a clue about this. Barb's information is carefully cherrypicked to attempt to discredit Judyth. There are other names for this, but 'research' isn't one of them.[/quote]

And what do those who attack anyone who attempts to evaluate claims made by a witness do, Pamela? Is that a valid "research process" - especially when documented information provided is seemingly not even looked at, certainly not addressed in return, and instead just circus barker like attacks all about anyone, anything and everything, over, under and around the information that was brought out?

You've accused me of "cherrypicking" in my fact checking constantly....but when asked, you never give an example or an explanation. I recently posted regarding Judyth's claim that she had done no research before coming out with her story, and could not have done any research, because the library at the U Louisiana was under remodeling construction and for a year she had no access to where the books she would need to do such research were on the 4th or 5th floor .... as there was no elevator in service for that entire year and because of her back problems she could not do the stairs.

I posted:
Direct quotes from a named person at the library who worked there at the time of the construction, and still works there.
I posted the link to the library site that includes the story of the construction, the floor plan of the library.
And the librarian I spoke to and the info on the library site make it clear that the library is, was and always has been THREE floors ... and that at least one of their two elevators was always working during that year of construction.

Not a peep in response from Judyth or Fetzer .... or you. What exactly was "cherrypicked"?

You talk a lot, but never on the actual issues or evidence, just airily, and with no specifics, making allegations about other posters and their "process." Your process seems clear.
[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO JACK ABOUT LEE'S "DISCHARGE" STATUS

NOTE: Once again, what Judyth has to say is even more accurate and
complete than what Jack White has to say. This reinforces my complete
disillusionment with the "brain trust" of Jack White, John Armstrong, and
David S. Lifton, whom I have naively assumed knew all there is to know
about Lee H. Oswald. What I am discovering is that Judyth knows more
about Lee H. Oswald than the three of them together! That's astounding!

JUDYTH REPLIES:

Jack White said,
[[JVB: Robert should know that Lee was not discharged, but placed in the Marine
Reserves, a bit early...]]

Lee Harvey Oswald received an UNDESIRABLE DISCHARGE from the Marines.

Let's clarify this:

I meant that Lee Oswald was not discharged from the Marines. He
was placed in the Marine Reserves with an honorable discharge.
Robert Oswald mentions it himself in the Interview posted. LATER,
after Lee's fake defection, his honorable discharge was changed
to an undesirable discharge.

I here post what Pamela McElwain Brown has written elsewhere:

"....while looking through ce 780, which are the
documents surrounding lee harvey oswald's request
for review of his military status, which was changed
from an honorable discharge (from active duty) to an
undesirable discharge (from the reserves) the logic
used by the dept of the navy began to make some
sense. first, perhaps it is common knowledge, but
was not to me, that lho was still in the marine
reserves when he went to the soviet union. then,
although the dept of the navy claimed he renounced
his citizenship, which he did not formally do, they
also stated that "petitioner brought discredit to
the marine corps through adverse newspaper
publicity". for all of you from military families,
this has to raise a red flag. you just don't go
around embarrassing the marines in a foreign country
and expect to get away with it. when his case was
reviewed, there was no change in the status of his
discharge. he had, by his own actions, closed the
door on his reputation as a marine and his
relationship with them.
pamela

Martin Shackelford added:

Martin Shackelford
More options Jan 2 2000, 10:00 am

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Date: 2000/01/02
Subject: Re: ce 780 and a clarification of lho's marine status

Also, the appeal letters were sent to addresses where he no longer
resided.

I did a chronological reorganization of Oswald's entire military record
a few years back, which makes many of these issues a lot clearer than
the original form of the record, though it includes all of the same
information. I gave it to JFK Lancer to make available to researchers at
a modest cost.
Martin

+Quote Post
Jack White

post Today, 04:41 AM
Post #883

Super Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 7196
Joined: 26-April 04
Member No.: 667

[JVB: Robert should know that Lee was not discharged, but placed in the Marine
Reserves, a bit early...]]

Lee Harvey Oswald received an UNDESIRABLE DISCHARGE from the Marines.
Go to the top of the page

[quote name='Jack White' post='188717' date='Apr 4 2010, 04:41 AM'][[JVB: Robert should know that Lee was not discharged, but placed in the Marine
Reserves, a bit early...]]

Lee Harvey Oswald received an UNDESIRABLE DISCHARGE from the Marines.[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

JIM REPLIES TO JACK ON HIS DEFENSE OF "HARVEY & LEE"

The fantastic theory of HARVEY & LEE is disintegrating before your eyes, but you are so convinced you aren't even reading the posts or else are not comprehending them. Judyth has most recently (in case you missed it) explained that the alleged distinction between "Harvey" and "Lee" based upon the "missing tooth" has no foundation. She has already shown that you do not even have the photographic record straight. And you may recall the sensation when Sylvia Meagher published her INDEX to the 26 supporting volumes, which was welcomed by one and all. And that Allen Dulles could not have been very successful in excluding reference to the CIA from the commission's publications when, in the 888-page volume known as THE WARREN REPORT, which has its own index, there are some two dozen reference to the CIA! So what was John Armstrong talking about?

You ask me to read his book, and when I do, I immediately stumble over a colossal blunder in the first four or five pages. I have asked you repeatedly what principles were used to select between the documents that were published in the public domain that had TRUE content and that had FALSE content. I have heard nothing from you but silence. CEASE TOUTING "THE TWO OSWALDS". I am already convinced that you and Armstrong vacuumed up a mass of documents where, for the most part, you have no idea which have TRUE CONTENT and which have FALSE. Judyth appears to know more than you, John, and David S. Lifton combined with it comes to Lee Harvey Oswald and "the second Oswald", his brother Robert, of whom none of you seem to have the least knowledge. I cannot believe what I am discovering here. HARVEY & LEE is a fanstasy--and you have the nerve to accuse Judyth of being a "fantasist"! I'm sorry, Jack. Sad to say, you have it exactly backwards.

[quote name='Jack White' post='188825' date='Apr 4 2010, 10:42 PM']
Jim...turn ON your comprehension. READ THE BOOK. See the Armstrong documentation for yourself
instead of incorrectly IMAGINING what the documentation is. You are COMPLETELY WRONG! If you read
the book you will see why...if you try.

And you are WRONG about the INDEX to the 26 volumes. It is in Volume XV. And EACH volume has
a Table of Contents in the front of each book. I must admit the volumes are poorly arranged and
the indexes and contents are not logically done. AND in the INDEX, citations for LEE HARVEY OSWALD
are omitted (I guess there were TOO MANY to index.).

Please read H&L. It contains answers to most of your questions. By speculating about what it says,
you are providing FALSE INFORMATION to those who have not read the book.

Jack


[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='188772' date='Apr 4 2010, 03:54 PM']
JIM REPLIES TO JACK ABOUT WHETHER LEE COULD DRIVE

READ THE BOOK! READ THE BOOK! So I start reading the book and discover right away the assertion that Allan Dulles was so clever in manipulating the Warren Commission with regard to the CIA that "in its 26 volumes, the name of the CIA does not even appear in its index"! Maybe you missed the post in which I observed (1) that the 26 supporting volumes does not even have an index and that (2) that the 888-page summary report, known as THE WARREN REPORT, does have an index, where the CIA is listed at least two dozen times! That is not the kind of discovery that inspires confidence in HARVEY & LEE.

Moreover, Armstrong's methodology appears to have been to vacuum up every document he could find in the public domain. You have told me that meant the existence of these documents could not be challenged because they are all in the public domain. But when I asked what principle of selection had been used to determine which were not only (3) authentic documents but also had (4) accurate content, you remained silent. It is as though you and John were oblivious of "The Mighty Wurlitzer' being played by Frank Wisner to flood the media with stories concocted by and managed by the CIA!

Now I discover that, in relation to the question of whether or not the man Judyth knew in New Orleans could or could not drive, you offer (what you imply to be) the definitive testimony of Ruth Paine and of Marina Oswald, yet at the bottom of the post, you include a table with the names of THIRTY-TWO other witnesses who have reported that they had either seen him drive or knew he had the ability to drive. I am sure you are going to resolve this contradiction by appealing to "Harvey" and "Lee". But, frankly, Jack, this looks like a ruse to draw attention from the real "two Oswalds", Robert and Lee!

So far as I am able to discern, HARVEY & LEE begins with a blunder and was created in fashion that was methodologically unsound--at least to the extent to which no effort appears to have been expended to sort out the true documents from the false, the accurate records from the inaccurate, and the genuine photos from the fake. IF YOU WANT ME TO TAKE ANY OF THIS SERIOUSLY, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO ADDRESS THESE QUESTIONS. How can anyone claim to be an expert on the assassination when they do not even know the difference between the 26 supporting volumes and the summary report?

Why you display such an arrogant and insulting attitude toward Judyth when this book to which you constantly refer commits such a grevious blunder from scratch is beyond me. And to continue to insist that there actually were "two Oswalds" when Judyth has already shown that some of the photos that you have taken for granted are suspect and when the documentary trail on which you rely may have been deliberately created as a false history so the man she knew could eventually return to a normal life in society simply astounds me. Judyth has her flaws, no doubt, but your position is hopelessly indefensible.

[quote name='Jack White' post='188767' date='Apr 4 2010, 04:04 PM']
Marina Oswald and Ruth and Michael Paine all told the Warren Commission in no uncertain terms that Lee Harvey Oswald did not drive an automobile and did not have a driver's license. But John Armstrong has found many witnesses who said Oswald did drive, including a former employee of the Texas Department of Public Safety License Records Department who issued a signed statement to a Garrison investigator stating that she had processed Oswald's returned driver's license after he was killed. This article explores these seeming contradictions.

Marina Oswald repeatedly told the Warren Commission that her husband did not drive. For example:

Mrs. OSWALD. Never. No; this is all not true. In the first place, my husband couldn't drive, and I was never alone with him in a car. Anytime we went in a car it was with Ruth Paine, and there was never--we never went to any gun store and never had any telescopic lens mounted.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the four of you, that is, your husband, you, and your two children, ever go alone any place in Irving?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Irving the baby was only 1 month old. I never took her out anywhere.

Representative FORD. Did you ever go anytime----

Mrs. OSWALD. Just to doctor, you know.

Representative FORD. Did you ever go anytime with your husband in a car with the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was never at anytime in a car with my husband and with a rifle. Not only with the rifle, not even with a pistol. Even without anything I was never with my husband in a car under circumstances where he was driving a car. (WC V, 401)

Michael Paine also indicated several times that Lee Harvey Oswald did not drive. For example:

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive a car?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. (WC II, 413)

In her Warren Commission testimony, Ruth Paine stated that as late as the weekend before the assassination of JFK, Oswald had failed to obtain a learner's permit so that he could eventually acquire a valid Texas driver's license.

Mr. JENNER. You did talk with him on the telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. I am certain that I talked with him, that he was surprised that he didn't need a car. I had to tell him that he didn't need a car to take with him to take his test.

Mr. JENNER. Take his initial test?

Mrs. PAINE. Take his test, and suggested that he go from Dallas himself to take this test. Then he called us Saturday afternoon of the 16th to say he had been and tried to get his driver's permit but that he had arrived before closing time but still to late to get in because there was a long line ahead of him, the place having been closed both the previous Saturday for election day and the following Monday, the 11th, Veterans Day. There were a lot of people who wanted to get permits and he was advised that it wouldn't pay him to wait in line. He didn't have time to be tested.

Mr. JENNER. Could you help us fix, can you recall as closely as possible the day of the week, this is the weekend of the assassination, was it not?

Mrs. PAINE. The weekend before.

Mr. JENNER. The weekend before, and this conversation you are now relating that you had with him in which he said that he had gone to the driver's license station, when did that conversation with you take place?

Mrs. PAINE. That conversation was with Marina, and she told me about it.

Mr. JENNER. When did she tell you about it?

Mrs. PAINE. He called her, it must have been Saturday afternoon, soon after he had been, he went Saturday morning and they closed at noon.

Mr. JENNER. I see. This was the weekend he did not come out to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. This was the weekend he did not come out. (WC II, 516)[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]

[Dawn Meredith]

Ok I will give you that: Armstrong made an error when he referred to the 26 volumes having an index. I do not see how this in any manner refutes to all the documentation and interviews in Harvey and Lee.

Moreover I cannot for the life of me understand why it is so important that you both refute this work. Is it not possible that Judtyth is telling the truth and Armstrong is also accurate?

Dawn

[Jack White]

Ok I will give you that: Armstrong made an error when he referred to the 26 volumes having an index. I do not see how this in any manner refutes to all the documentation and interviews in Harvey and Lee.

Moreover I cannot for the life of me understand why it is so important that you both refute this work. Is it not possible that Judtyth is telling the truth and Armstrong is also accurate?

Dawn

The INDEX is in VOLUME XV. Each book has a Table of Contents.
Each of these is inadequate, but it is wrong to say they do not exist.

Jack

[James H. Fetzer]

Well, it depends upon what kinds of mistakes he has made. I am behind in my posting, but there is something rather strange about the "missing tooth" and some other odds and ends. I will elaborate. My presumption has been that most of what both sources has to say should be reconcilable, but at this point in my research, I am not quite sure about it. I will post more today and you will have a better idea of what I mean.

Ok I will give you that: Armstrong made an error when he referred to the 26 volumes having an index. I do not see how this in any manner refutes to all the documentation and interviews in Harvey and Lee.

Moreover I cannot for the life of me understand why it is so important that you both refute this work. Is it not possible that Judtyth is telling the truth and Armstrong is also accurate?

Dawn