Questions for William Turner and Mort Sahl in re a Garrison/RFK Meeting

[Charles Drago]

As noted in an earlier thread:

In his presentation at "Making Sense of the Sixties," this year's Cyril Wecht-sponsored symposium at Duquesne, William Turner offered the following:

"In May 1968 RFK's California campaign aide, Richard Lubic, tracked me down by phone in [Jim] Garrison's office to advise, 'after he's elected, [Bobby Kennedy] is going to go. He's going to reopen the investigation [of JFK's death].' When I conveyed the glad tidings Garrison broke into a Cheshire cat grin.

"Several months before, comedian Mort Sahl, who was aiding the DA's investigation, had arranged a secret meeting between Garrison and Sahl's friend Bobby at the Carlyle Hotel in New York. Garrison briefed Bobby, who agreed that he was on the right track. 'What are you going to do about it?' Garrison asked. 'I'm going to wait until I'm president, then reopen the case,' Bobby replied. (emphasis added)

"'If it was my brother, I'd reopen it right now,' Garrison retorted. On June 3, two days before he was shot, RFK said, 'I now fully realize that only the powers of the presidency will reveal the secrets of my brother's death.'"

This rather startling revelation prompted me to pose two questions to Joan Mellen, whose A Farewell to Justice stands as the most passionately and reasonably argued defense of Garrison, his methods, and the validity of his core conclusions regarding the assassination conspiracy:

1. To the best of your knowledge, did the RFK/Garrison meeting described by Turner -- or anything like it -- ever take place?

2. If so, might RFK's overt hostility to Garrison's investigation have been designed to disinform the watchers?

Ms. Mellen's public responses were typically direct, and I offer them below in condensed form:

"To my knowledge, no such meeting between Jim Garrison and Robert Kennedy ever took place ... If you look, for example, at the transcripts of the televison programs that Garrison did (ABC, etc.) available at the Archives, you can see his perplexity, his wondering why Bobby did not help him, and in fact, as Garrison put it, 'torpedoed' his investigation ... I talked to Lubic, but did not find him credible."

Thus I am compelled to address the following questions to Messrs. Turner and Sahl:

Will you, Mr. Turner, publicly offer additional details on the alleged Sahl-facilitated Garrison/RFK meeting?

Will you, Mr. Sahl, publicly confirm or deny that, to your direct knowledge, a meeting between Robert Kennedy and Jim Garrison took place during the latter's investigation of the JFK assassination; that the principals discussed the investigation in meaningful detail; that RFK ventured that Garrison was on the right track; that you facilitated any such a meeting or at least attempted to do so?

Please know that your responses and any additional commentaries you may wish to provide will be published on this forum in their entirety and immediately upon receipt.

Respectfully,

Charles Drago

[Peter Lemkin]

As noted in an earlier thread:

In his presentation at "Making Sense of the Sixties," this year's Cyril Wecht-sponsored symposium at Duquesne, William Turner offered the following:

"In May 1968 RFK's California campaign aide, Richard Lubic, tracked me down by phone in [Jim] Garrison's office to advise, 'after he's elected, [Bobby Kennedy] is going to go. He's going to reopen the investigation [of JFK's death].' When I conveyed the glad tidings Garrison broke into a Cheshire cat grin.

"Several months before, comedian Mort Sahl, who was aiding the DA's investigation, had arranged a secret meeting between Garrison and Sahl's friend Bobby at the Carlyle Hotel in New York. Garrison briefed Bobby, who agreed that he was on the right track. 'What are you going to do about it?' Garrison asked. 'I'm going to wait until I'm president, then reopen the case,' Bobby replied. (emphasis added)

"'If it was my brother, I'd reopen it right now,' Garrison retorted. On June 3, two days before he was shot, RFK said, 'I now fully realize that only the powers of the presidency will reveal the secrets of my brother's death.'"

This rather startling revelation prompted me to pose two questions to Joan Mellen, whose A Farewell to Justice stands as the most passionately and reasonably argued defense of Garrison, his methods, and the validity of his core conclusions regarding the assassination conspiracy:

1. To the best of your knowledge, did the RFK/Garrison meeting described by Turner -- or anything like it -- ever take place?

2. If so, might RFK's overt hostility to Garrison's investigation have been designed to disinform the watchers?

Ms. Mellen's public responses were typically direct, and I offer them below in condensed form:

"To my knowledge, no such meeting between Jim Garrison and Robert Kennedy ever took place ... If you look, for example, at the transcripts of the televison programs that Garrison did (ABC, etc.) available at the Archives, you can see his perplexity, his wondering why Bobby did not help him, and in fact, as Garrison put it, 'torpedoed' his investigation ... I talked to Lubic, but did not find him credible."

Thus I am compelled to address the following questions to Messrs. Turner and Sahl:

Will you, Mr. Turner, publicly offer additional details on the alleged Sahl-facilitated Garrison/RFK meeting?

Will you, Mr. Sahl, publicly confirm or deny that, to your direct knowledge, a meeting between Robert Kennedy and Jim Garrison took place during the latter's investigation of the JFK assassination; that the principals discussed the investigation in meaningful detail; that RFK ventured that Garrison was on the right track; that you facilitated any such a meeting or at least attempted to do so?

Please know that your responses and any additional commentaries you may wish to provide will be published on this forum in their entirety and immediately upon receipt.

Respectfully,

Charles Drago

"Should such a meeting have occurred, how can we account for Bobby's defense of Walter Sheridan, who, by his own admission, went down to New Orleans to destroy Garrison's investigation? Please take a look at my article on Otto Otepka for some information on how Bobby Kennedy and Sheridan operated behind the scenes. Garrison would never have kept such a meeting secret after the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy had it occurred in "Jim Garrison, His Life and Times." The only example I know of Garrison protecting a source was the case of Hale Boggs talking to him about what occurred behind the scenes at the Warren Commission.

Nb: Mort Sahl refused to be interviewed for "A Farewell To Justice.""

-Joan Mellen [from email to me today]

The Boggs meeting with Garrison is new to me and interesting; and likely his fatal error vis-a-vis his disappearance in Alaska [and plane never even found...how 'convenient'!]

[Charles Drago]

Thank you, Peter.

Yes, the Boggs story begs to be told in detail.

Now I'll indulge myself in offering what, at best, is speculation:

If RFK wanted to disguise his intention to investigate in full the murder of his brother and otherwise appear to be in lockstep with the cover-up, he would feel obliged to send a very strong message of compliance to the watchers in the face of a formal law enforcement inquiry into the events in Dallas.

What better way to do so than to wage a believable -- that is, behind-the-scenes and ostensibly brutal -- faux campaign to discredit, disrupt, and eventually destroy the Garrison case?

Would such a Kennedy-directed two-track ploy be unprecedented?

Oh, let's see ... Perhaps Messrs. Khrushchev and Castro would care to weigh in.

Cooperation disguised by confrontation.

Movements toward peace disguised by preparations for war.

Or maybe Gerry Ford would like to show you his "Profile in Courage" award.

Just speculating, of course.

[Dawn Meredith]

Peter Joan tells the Hale Boggs story in her book. It made a lot of sense to me. Now why Garrison went through his life attributing this to Huey Long remains unclear, especially after Bogg's most suspicious disappearance in October 1972. I was suspicious of that and I did not even know "who" he was at that point. (Ie Warren Commissioner who was also a skeptic).

CD: Your analysis makes perfect sense. In fact it is the ONLY analysis of the Bobby/Sheridan/Garrison scenario that makes sense.

Peter would you please email more to Joan. (Like the above post). I wonder why Mort refused to be interviewed. Perhaps he knew it could lead to an "accidental" death.

[Peter Lemkin]

Thank you, Peter.

Yes, the Boggs story begs to be told in detail.

Now I'll indulge myself in offering what, at best, is speculation:

If RFK wanted to disguise his intention to investigate in full the murder of his brother and otherwise appear to be in lockstep with the cover-up, he would feel obliged to send a very strong message of compliance to the watchers in the face of a formal law enforcement inquiry into the events in Dallas.

What better way to do so than to wage a believable -- that is, behind-the-scenes and ostensibly brutal -- faux campaign to discredit, disrupt, and eventually destroy the Garrison case?

Would such a Kennedy-directed two-track ploy be unprecedented?

Oh, let's see ... Perhaps Messrs. Khrushchev and Castro would care to weigh in.

Cooperation disguised by confrontation.

Movements toward peace disguised by preparations for war.

Or maybe Gerry Ford would like to show you his "Profile in Courage" award.

Just speculating, of course.

Yes, I agree. RFK knew Garrison was 'on-to' elements of the truth, but chose to play the role of villanizing him. RFK, I believe, felt it was both a matter of his own survival and an attempt to get to the point where he could become President and thereby expose the truth [he already knew the outlines of]. Those behind the murder/coup knew this and thus eliminted RFK, despite his faux position. From where I sit one can only condemn RFK for his sabotage on the Garrison investigation; however, we don't know fully what was behind his actions. I think, in part, he was reacting to a large set of political blackmail the plotters had in hand - from MM's death, through RFKs knowledge of LHO, some unsavory plots against Castro et al. - and many other things. RFK was really out of power by the afternoon of 11/22 despite his 'title'. LBJ and JEH, along with the plotters, had him neutralized - and that was built into the plan. My guess [and it can only be that] is that RFK felt he could rehabilitiate Garrison's image later - a later that was never to come.

[Peter Lemkin]

Dear Charles,
I would have to factor in examples of the "other" side of Bobby Kennedy, his collaborations with Charlie Ford, William Harvey and Sam Halperin on Mongoose, and the Venezuela fiasco; the Otepka case; the wiretapping in the Hoffa case while denying he favored wiretapping; etc. As for Jim Garrison, he really was perplexed, and later he said that the way Bobby could have preserved his life was by coming forward with what he knew and what he suspected.
I try to avoid the "would have dones." I know what Garrison tried to do, and that he never held back. There were political consequences, and he suffered them, but he was not ambitious in the way that Bobby Kennedy was. I have never written this, but looking at this debate, it occurs to me that Bobby Kennedy owed Jim Garrison an enormous debt of gratitude. Garrison cared what happened to Bobby's BROTHER.
Plus: Is there an adult human being who doesn't recognize that there may be no "later"?
- Joan Mellen

[Charles Drago]

Dear Joan,

Thanks so much for taking time on this holiday to respond.

You correctly isolate the essential problem with my RFK hypothesis and, by extension, all historical speculations -- especially those relating to deep political phenomena.

Your research in defense of your argument is, for me in this exchange, impossible to match in any empirical sense. Rather, I struggle to reconcile my appreciations of the character and political agendas of RFK, including his post-Garrison period expressions of intent to re-open the investigation of his brother's assassination, with the clearly documented instances of his proxy assaults on Garrison's inquiry.

I am both moved and reinforced in my speculations by the work of James Douglass as he expands upon (JFK and the Unspeakable) unpublished conclusions drawn by George Michael Evica and me relating to that ultimately non-quantifiable aspect of the human experience known as spiritual growth. And again I would argue that two-track approaches to the solving of deep political problems are evident in the Kennedy brothers' shared m.o.

I'm writing this as I juggle all sorts of family responsibilities -- mostly relating to kitchen issues. So please forgive me if I'm less than erudite or clear in the expression of my thinking.

I'll reserve the right to continue this line of reasoning on the morrow, but I do want to respond to you today as a gesture of my continuing respect for your points of view.

If RFK were engaged in the two-track game I postulate, Jim Garrison would have been the indispensable -- and fully informed -- player in the cover story.

And knowing the strength and nobility of his character, he would have played his role to the grave.

In closing, carpe diem indeed. I agree that RFK owed an immeasurable debt of gratitude to Jim Garrison.

If I'm right, he expressed that gratitude more than once.

Many thanks, and kind regards,

Charlie

[Dawn Meredith]

As noted in an earlier thread:

In his presentation at "Making Sense of the Sixties," this year's Cyril Wecht-sponsored symposium at Duquesne, William Turner offered the following:

"In May 1968 RFK's California campaign aide, Richard Lubic, tracked me down by phone in [Jim] Garrison's office to advise, 'after he's elected, [Bobby Kennedy] is going to go. He's going to reopen the investigation [of JFK's death].' When I conveyed the glad tidings Garrison broke into a Cheshire cat grin.

"Several months before, comedian Mort Sahl, who was aiding the DA's investigation, had arranged a secret meeting between Garrison and Sahl's friend Bobby at the Carlyle Hotel in New York. Garrison briefed Bobby, who agreed that he was on the right track. 'What are you going to do about it?' Garrison asked. 'I'm going to wait until I'm president, then reopen the case,' Bobby replied. (emphasis added)

"'If it was my brother, I'd reopen it right now,' Garrison retorted. On June 3, two days before he was shot, RFK said, 'I now fully realize that only the powers of the presidency will reveal the secrets of my brother's death.'"

This rather startling revelation prompted me to pose two questions to Joan Mellen, whose A Farewell to Justice stands as the most passionately and reasonably argued defense of Garrison, his methods, and the validity of his core conclusions regarding the assassination conspiracy:

1. To the best of your knowledge, did the RFK/Garrison meeting described by Turner -- or anything like it -- ever take place?

2. If so, might RFK's overt hostility to Garrison's investigation have been designed to disinform the watchers?

Ms. Mellen's public responses were typically direct, and I offer them below in condensed form:

"To my knowledge, no such meeting between Jim Garrison and Robert Kennedy ever took place ... If you look, for example, at the transcripts of the televison programs that Garrison did (ABC, etc.) available at the Archives, you can see his perplexity, his wondering why Bobby did not help him, and in fact, as Garrison put it, 'torpedoed' his investigation ... I talked to Lubic, but did not find him credible."

Thus I am compelled to address the following questions to Messrs. Turner and Sahl:

Will you, Mr. Turner, publicly offer additional details on the alleged Sahl-facilitated Garrison/RFK meeting?

Will you, Mr. Sahl, publicly confirm or deny that, to your direct knowledge, a meeting between Robert Kennedy and Jim Garrison took place during the latter's investigation of the JFK assassination; that the principals discussed the investigation in meaningful detail; that RFK ventured that Garrison was on the right track; that you facilitated any such a meeting or at least attempted to do so?

Please know that your responses and any additional commentaries you may wish to provide will be published on this forum in their entirety and immediately upon receipt.

Respectfully,

Charles Drago

I sent this thread to both Lisa Pease and Jim DiEugenio:
Lisa's comments are below, Jim's will follow.
Dawn


Turner had sent in a paper to be distributed to participants. I have a copy of his presentation, and this sounds like what he said, but I'm not at home and can't verify exactly. But he certainly wrote something very similar to this for the presentation he was unable to give in person.



Lisa Pease


lpease@gte.net


Blog: http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com


Site: http://www.realhistoryarchives.com


Book: The Assassinations: Probe Magazine on JFK, MLK, RFK and Malcolm X




And from Jim:

Dawn:


I have been thinking about this story today.


I think I understand it now.


Bill got this story from a guy named Mike Willmann who originally sourced it from Mort Sahl. I heard it from Willmann also.


Since Mike knew Turner, he probably told Turner also. Which is where Turner got it. If you look at any of Turner's books on the cases of RFK or JFK, he does not use it. So I beleive Willman is the source for him.


Mort and Willmann were good friends for a time in the nineties before they had a falling out.


When Talbot interviewed me for his book, I told him this story. Talbot interviewed Sahl. Before the book was published I had an online discussion with his assistant.


I asked her if Talbot asked Sahl about this story.. She said he did but Sahl did not confirm the story.


That does not necessarily mean it is not true. And you have to know Mort to understand why.


He is a very mercurial character. If he likes and trusts you, he tells you a lot. If he does not, he tells you little.


I don't know what he thought of Talbot.


If you want to use this info on your Forum, OK.

[Charles Drago]

Thank you, Dawn.

And please express my gratitude to Ms. Pease and Mr. DiEugenio.

[Peter Lemkin]

Dear Forum,

Another word: I can't believe that if Garrison had met with Bobby Kennedy, he wouldn't have spoken of it, given the pain he felt over what Sheridan did to him, and how Bobby defended Sheridan. Garrison had the opportunity to tell Buras and Delsa about any meetings he might have had with Bobby Kennedy, for example, particularly L. J. with whom he became friends during and after the HSCA investigation. He could have spoken of it in his long interview with Gaeton Fonzi. He did not.

I interviewed Turner many times, and Turner never mentioned any meeting between Garrison and RFK to me. I haven't a shred of evidence that Garrison ever met Bobby.

There was a fellow who attached himself to the Garrison investigation, the son of the actress Ruth Gordon and the producer Jed Harris who floated a false story that Garrison had met Bobby Kennedy and that Bobby urged him to go forward, but it turned out to be bogus. Garrison never trusted this individual. His name escapes me for the moment.

The idea that Garrison was a fitting, appropriate or acceptable victim for a two strategies policy by Bobby Kennedy pains me. And Garrison and his life's work were sacrificed for...what? To this day, the name "Garrison" is anathema to the mainstream press. He deserves better.

- Joan Mellen