A.J. Blocker Wrote:Was Colonel F. Prouty ever reprimanded or prosecuted for revealing miliary secrets?
Was Daniel Ellsberg ever prosecuted for revealing military secrets?
Prouty was never reprimanded for anything to my knowledge.
Ellsberg's psychiatric record was sought by CREEP (the committee to re-elect the president, NIXON) which created the so-called White House Plumbers who broke into Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office. Then he surrendered after the Supreme Court ruled that another court had ruled, wrongly, that the press could print the Pentagon Papers. Ellsberg faced charges for crimes under the Espionage Act of 1917! In May of '73 all charges against Ellsberg were dropped as a result of the gross misconduct of the federal government in prosecuting Ellsberg, including breaking into his psychiatrist's office, illegal wire tapping, etc.
GO_SECURE
monk
"It is difficult to abolish prejudice in those bereft of ideas. The more hatred is superficial, the more it runs deep."
05-02-2011, 01:52 PM (This post was last modified: 30-06-2011, 01:46 PM by Bernice Moore.)
hi greg; i do hope down through time, they learnt how to use their fire extinguisher and microwave, scary as them running a store, and not being up to date, i have read and all everything i believe on the sewer drains, i have always found it fascinating, rich called me sewer girl at ne time, it went on so long, but then he had many names for us, with a chuckle, though he did brag, i had crashed more pcs that anyone on his forum...and it was true, those were dandy times, i shall post the jack brazil photo, for all looking out of the drain, some forget, anything was and is possible, especially when they have already found to their satisfaction, their finalized theory, they know how and who, i still do not have a theory of how,nor finalized the who, im my mind.. though i have read many. i'm still looking...i do hope you did get fed...:wavey:b..btw jim garrison goes into quite detailed information in your radio link, re the sewer system..ps they were deep enough to stand up in..also...thanks..b
fwiw here is some information on jack brazil and the sewer drains, b
Jack Brazil & The Storm Sewer Systems : Dealey Plaza.. THIS INFORMATION IS THE COMBINATION FROM TWO ARTICLES BY: Ray Evans..J.F.K Research, Texas..92-93 approximately.. He was born in New Orleans, La. and was placed into the boarding school system in 1941 from Bethlehem, St.Joseph's, Infant Jesus, Fisher's to Arbeaux's till 1948. Lee Harvey and his two brothers, John Pic, and Robert Oswald were also in two of the boarding schools along with Jack and his brother Roy. Jack attended East Jefferson High School in N.Os (Metairie) La. As a junior in 1956, he was on the student council and participated in football and track, ran the anchor leg on his school's gold medal championship 4AAAA mile relay team, and a leg on the gold medal 440 relay team with his brother as anchor, Jack also ran a leg on the silver medal 880 relay. In his senior year, he earned 24 scholarships to play football and run track. Selecting to attend the University of Florida, Gainesville in Fla. In 1956 while Jack was a junior at East Jefferson, Gordon Novel (Garrison-Deloreon-Watergate fame) was a senior. In 1968 the New Orleans grand jury subpoenaed Gordon Novel to testify in court regarding David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Arachia Smith as well as others. Novel leaving town immediately and D.A Jim Garrison could never extradite him from Columbus, Ohio. Morris Brownlee was in Gordon Novel's graduating class (1956) and was also questioned by Garrison in the Kennedy probe; he was also the godson of David Ferrie. Ferrie dying shortly after he was indicted to appear before the N.Os Parish Grand Jury. Lawrence Solow also in the 57 graduating class , at the time of this information the 90's was doing 25 years for bank robbery, was also questioned by Jim Garrison during his probe. Some researchers believe that Solow was the driver of the black limousine that was stopped in Ferris, Texas, ( a suburb of Dallas ) shortly after the assassination of J.F.K .Two high school students from Ferris High School witnessed this event seeing that there were three men in said limousine that had been stopped for speeding on Interstate 45, the driver presented Secret Service identification to the policeman and was allowed to leave without being ticketed.. In the 1959 graduating class of East Jefferson were Rancier Blaise Ehlinger and Billy Schremp, Ehlinger was also questioned by D.A.Garrison in the Kennedy probe, and was a partner of Gordon Novel in an electronics manufacturing firm. Billy Schremp was in Dallas at the time of the assassination. Brazil is the only person ( at this) to have questioned Schremp in the matter. Brazil graduated from East Jefferson with honors in 57 and then attended the Univ. of Florida at Gainesville in 58….There was also a freshman in Jack's class by the name of Paul O'Connor, who was one of those on duty and received at the Bethesda morgue, the President's body when it finally arrived the night of the assassination. The following year, Brazil played football for the University of Southwest Louisiana at Lafayette, leaving in 59….From 60 to 62, he was a military Policeman assigned to M.I. On the day of the assassination, of President Kennedy, Nov.22/63..Jack Brazil was in Chino Prison in California, doing time for burglary, forgery and safe cracking…He was serving, a 14 and 15 year sentence to run concurrently……It has been reported that Marvin Chauncey Holt was also in Chino Prison on the day of the assassination. Holt coming forward in 1991 claiming he was one of the tramps arrested in a RR side car, near the triple underpass shortly after the assignation. Jack Brazil was paroled, from Chino, on May 10.1965...…and disappeared from California, shortly afterwards.. Informants have claimed, they saw him in New Orleans with Novel, Solow, Brownlee, and Ehlinger in 1967.He did not surface again till the day Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated in Memphis, Tenn. Investigators have placed him in Memphis, the day before, the day of and the day after Dr.King's death. Also reported as being in Los Angeles Cal. on the day of Robert F. Kennedy's assassination.. Many researchers have stated that Brazil is a member of Western Intelligence located in Denver Co. with other locations in Memphis, New Orleans, Miami, St. Louis and Houston….Jack Brazil has denied these charges.. On February 22-23, 1992, a military type commando unit moved into the Dealey Plaza section of downtown Dallas, Texas, virtually unnoticed. The unit consisted of J.F.K researchers, one search and recovery team, Navy Seals, underground miners, intelligence officers, Special Forces members, and armed security guards. The unit was led by one Jack Brazil of Tyler, Texas. Their object was …… 1: To illustrate the fatal head shot that President J.F.Kennedy suffered originated from the right front instead of from the right rear, as originally and the W/C reported. 2: To establish that fact that the storm drain closest to the President measuring 48" x 40" x 38" could very well support or hide a would-be-assassin. 3: To escape Dealey Plaza via the underground drainage system. (Through the storm sewer, the storm drain, and the sanitary sewer, as all three systems are under Dealey Plaza. 4: To search for, and collect any material that would be associated with the assassination. Several Television affiliates, including CNN, aired the events. It was quite impressive. So, at 12.30 PM on Feb.22, 1992, exactly 339 months after the death of our President, a Firecracker was ignited from the storm sewer in Dealey Plaza. At that instant most of the spectators looked at the stockade fence. Some turned toward the TSBD, while others glanced over at the triple underpass. Not one bystander noticed the storm sewer. A possible assassin's den to the right of front of President Kennedy.. As the report of the firecracker, the would-be-assassin began to crawl through the drainage system. Crawling 42 feet and reached a blockage consisting of bricks and debris. At this point it began to rain, so the ranger was retrieved before the water began to build up. The venture was postponed until the debris could be dislodged from the drainage system. The following morning the project resumed as planned. It took the ranger 4 minutes to crawl from the north side of Elm Street to the south side of Elm. It took 3 additional minutes to crawl from the north side of Main Street to the center of Main. The sewer system then changed direction ( west) and the remainder of the journey was easily accomplished. The ranger then traveled another 22 feet in the 24" system. The drainage system swelled, first to 30", then to 39". When the system reached Industrial Ave., it emptied into a 13 foot horseshoe. The ranger turned left and proceeded south nine hundred feet into a unction box. He veered right into a 9 foot drain, situated in a drainage that emptied into the Trinity River. This project was the result of 5 years of research connecting the black limousine that had been stopped by a police officer in Ferris, Texas and witnessed by two school students with the death of President Kennedy. The limousine was later confirmed to have been approximately 2, 440 feet from the motorcade at the time of the assassination. It is stated further that through years of research, the facts indicate that this limousine harbored the gunman and the escape route utilized, was through the storm sewer system. The team found a 44 Magnum, an ID card ( both were determined not to be related to the assassination ) a 10 inch switchblade knife with the inscriptions " Rizzuto, Estileto, Milano", and a portion of what appeared to be a sop-made silencer. Though the resuts were interesting, the conclusions were still pending. The ranger made the journey through the system in 54 minutes. In traffic, the limousine could travel from Industrial Road and Reunion to Interstate 45 in Ferris, Texas, in approximately 30 minutes. This would place the limo at a fixed point, leaving a grace period. A key factor in this enterprise was a statement by Senator Ralph Yarborough, a passenger in the Vice President's car…..third in line in the motorcade…who said " I smelled gunpowder".. According to several math experts from East Texas, he states it would be impossible, for Senator Yarborough to smell gunpowder if the shots originated from the right rear, which was where the TSBD was locate. The smoke would also be impossible to derive from a nineteen-foot elevation , such as the stockade fence on the grassy knoll. It the wind was blowing at 13 mph due east, and the motorcade was traveling west, the on;y possible way the Senator could have smelled gunpowder would be for his open automobile to have driven directly through the gunsmoke. The opening today, (90's) in the water inlet is 192 square inches. The opening in the water inlet in 1963 was 384 square inches. The reason for the reduction ( is the upgrading of the water inlet, to a smaller version, see photo ).. and the buildup of road material. Regardless of whether Jack Brazil is a good guy or a bad guy. The Brazil team in Tyler Texas, had traveled more miles, knocked on more doors, jumped on more airplanes, rented more cars, and uncovered as many facts as any research team pertaining to the assassination…
Additionally, although his statements cannot necessarily be taken at face value, it is nevertheless worth stating that Raymond Broshears, a long time friend of David Ferrie stated that he was informed by Ferrie that the Storm Drain was indeed one of the Sniper Positions, as well as those already mentioned
05-02-2011, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2011, 08:49 PM by Bernice Moore.)
Let's say that this was one of the shooter's locations. see photo Cabluck. north side ... He was able to stand in the storm grate, and have a good shot from under the picketfence. Would that explain why the area appears to have been altered?
In the Cabluck and the Cancellare? Shouldn't we see the fence pickets, and the gap at the bottom?
It's been mentioned the diameter of the pipe being only 16", that is now,but not back then....according to Penn Jones, Jack Brazil, and others ..as will the sewers that as I understand it, have been
done over during the passing years.They are nothing like they were....They made the trips many times...in all the different directions.... below is Penn, in the street sewer, another Brazil walking out of the entrance from his trip, not sure if this is from the street sewer or the one behind the South fence...
I believe Decker orders his men, to get up to the RR yards, and check them out, and yet, in the WC report it is simply not mentioned, and instead quoted that he ordered
the men to the TSBD..not the RR yard, more crap.
I am wondering as others, if the bottom boards were loosed from say the nails, and were able to be swng back in place,on the North side, it could have been possible....?
On the south side, I have been told by some who have been to Dealey, that as the overpass takes a turn at the end on the North, it does also on the South, that is apparently a blind
spot as on both ends.
As I understand it, when Holland, and the men ran around behind the fence, there were others running, previous to his arrival there, I have wondered how many were RRmen and how
many perhaps were others, who melded in.?? how many were there..and had been ??..Also recall the RRmen were taken in the days that followed, down to the I believe the RR office and interviewed by the FBI, and
SS..? and told and retold what they had and had seen......Their information is not to be found within the WR nor studies... gone..This is within a video by Mark Lanes..where whomever speaks to some of the RRmen that were there..
I am wondering as others, if the bottom boards were loosed from say the nails, and were able to be swng back in place,on the North side, it could have been possible....?
On the south side, I have been told by some who have been to Dealey, that as the overpass takes a turn at the end on the North, it does also on the South, that is apparently a blind
spot as on the south..I also have a photo from the North side, but not sure if I still have such..
I have read that Jack Brazil has a map of the Dallas sewer system, perhaps if still alive and responding, he may be able to
supply...I have never been able to obtain his email address....if he has one..
also Don Roberdeau has also done work on the possible drain shot from the North overpass area.
Gil Jesus.....I believe in 2005 ..wrote the below information.....Note :re the photo map from Greg Burnham, as this ties into
his information....re distances and angles..from the sewer on Elm....
""However, some have suggested (myself included) in the last several
years that the fatal shot came from a storm drain on the north side of
Elm Street. This storm drain is located at an approximately 12 degree
angle and 70 feet to the right front of where the fatal shot hit the
President. Its trajectory angle would explain the location of the right
rear occipital/parietal exit wound. It would explain the spraying of
the police officers to the left rear of the car (they were sprayed so
hard that one of the officers, Bobby Hargis, stated afterward that he
initially thought he was hit). It would explain the Harper skull
fragment's location to the left rear of the car. And finally it
explains the back and to the left direction of the head movement in
harmony with the aforementioned evidence..""
*****************
Jack Brazil thought, that a shooter could have crawled up from the connecting pipes from a different location and crawled back after the shooting. He would not have to climb into the manhole before and climb out after.He would get there from connecting pipes...b
Wed, 04 Jun 1997 15:42 Posted on alt.conspiracy.jfk By: ahimsa@altinet.net
Early information.
City workers had the sewer opened behind the tool shed today. It appears to be a standard sewer in that the round opening is the top of the bell.
The sides are built with brick and had iron rungs for climbing down. The pipe at the bottom was covered with mud and debris but it appeared to be 12-15 feet deep and about 4 feet in diameter.
Tom Bowden The Conspiracy Museum
No link working now, not found..
******* Some Information is found below at the Detroit Funk..link..re drain shot .. scroll down..
I see the link above is down now..i have some of the photos of the dallas underground system that they had posted...fwiw...b
here is the info from J.J...Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:55:11 -0400
From John Judge
To: treefrog
Ed,
I missed the earlier part of this exchange but have always believed the fatal shot came from the storm sewer on Elm Street to the right front of the motorcade. This was not from speculation or photo angling. The letter from Ed T, whoever that is, hits the nail on the head. I used to crawl down in the sewer with Penn Jones in 60s and it is quite different today. For one thing, the bottom has been filled in (note the flattening of the pipe opening at the bottom) and the opening that used to come up to my armpits now only reaches my waist. Oliver Stone repaved the street for his film and considerably reduced the size of the opening onto the street. It was more than ample and wide for the head shot. And Penn Jones, Jim Garrison and other critics placed the shot there from reports by witnesses and the physical evidence. It was Mark Lane in the late 60's who tried to move everyone up to the Grassy Knoll.
Earwitnesses heard a completely different sound from the last shot fired, one saying it echoed as if in a sewer.
Connally and others in the motorcade smelled gunpowder during the events. Smoke rose upwards from the fence area atop the Grassy Knoll, and would not have reached them. However, the passing of the first car in the motorcade would suck air and smoke out of the sewer hole and along the route of the motorcade.
A shot from the Grassy Knoll would have reached JFK's head at a downward angle, exiting from the base of his skull, and driving him down into the seat as it sent him backwards. A close examination of his reaction in both Zapruder and Nix films shows that he rises up from the seat as he is thrown back at over 100 mph. The fatal shot blew out the upper right portion of his skull. Both are consistent with a shot from below.
Brain matter and skull fragments explode upwards and travel back and to the left with great velocity at the moment of impact. Jackie later revealed that she picked up a portion of skull on the left rear of the car behind her seat, before being pushed back in by Clint Hill. A portion of skull was found near the curb on the south side of Elm, nearly 30 feet behind the position of the car at the point of the fatal shot and across the street.
Officer Billy Hargis was riding his motorcycle to the left rear of JFK's limousine and witnessed the head shot. He was quoted in the Warren Commission testimony saying that he was hit so hard with a skull fragment through his leather jacket that he thought he had been hit by a bullet. He looked down to see he was covered with blood, stopped and got off his motorcycle, and said "Am I hit?" He later parked the motorcycle over the opening of the sewer and ran up the Grassy Knoll with other witnesses. Quoted in the Dallas Morning News on the 30th anniversary of the assassination, Hargis recalled the event and said the brain and blood matter arced up and came down on him. Again, all this is more consistent with a shot from below and to the front.
The storm sewer is a good hidden location, one that a military sniper would choose. Penn Jones crawled through the pipes and discovered that going west along Elm leads to the vertical pipe that opens behind the Grassy Knoll fence near the overpass, and going across Elm and to the east leads to a grate in the basement of the Dallas jail. He yelled out when he got there, but no one responded.
The sewer shot was rarely mentioned by researchers or the public after Lane focused on the Grassy Knoll, but a few of us kept seeking the evidence. Subsequent "tell all" books by alleged participants usually repeat the standard locations, the TSBD window or the Grassy Knoll, for verisimilitude. A book published in the 1990's, long after it would have been fashionable to lie about the sewer location, titled Treason is My Daily Bread, by Mikhail Ledbedev, reveals his role in a plot involving Nazi intelligent agent Reinhard Gehlen to kill Kennedy in Dallas, and mentions that he was sent to shoot from the storm sewer. He may be covering for the real assassin in this, but by picking the sewer location he adds credibility to his account in my view. There are many other indications that Gehlen and his cold war spy network that formed our CIA were part of the JFK assassination conspiracy.
In the end though, it does not matter exactly where the shots came from or who fired them, even. None of that leads us back to the plotters, but the patsy Oswald does. Focusing endlessly on Dealey Plaza will never solve the crime. The bullets came from the Pentagon, no matter what direction they took.
If Holt was in prison on 11/22/63 I am wondering if anyone has ever researched this. WHen I first read the Craig and Rogers book The Man on the Grassy Knoll back in the mid 90's I was persuaded that Holt was one of the tramps. Why would he say such a thing? A rhetorical question when one considers the rantings of James Files.
Lois Gibson's work was quite compelling. Charles Rogers, if not involved in the assassination, is certainly the most creative rabbit hole I have gone down.
However I have always believed the 'Holt" tramp looks more like E Howard Hunt. But I have zero expertise in photo ids.
I don't know how long prison records are kept, of who is in custody since it was not til 91 that Chauncy Holt surfaced with his tramp story.
and it was true, those were dandy times, i shall post the jack brazil photo, for all looking out of the drain, some forget, anything was and is possible, especially when they have already found to their satisfaction, their finalized theory, they know how and who, i still do not have a theory of how,nor finalized the who, im my mind.. though i have read many. i'm still looking...i do hope you did get fed...:wavey:b..btw jim garrison goes into quite detailed information in your radio link, re the sewer system..ps they were deep enough to stand up in..also...thanks..b
