The LBJ-Did-It Operation Continues to Unfold

[Seamus Coogan]

Well, Seamus, one thing I've learned over the years. People will believe what they want to believe sometimes - facts be damned. Trust me, I'm learning this in the 9/11 forum. Oh yeah...I was also denounced as a nut job, completely unpatriotic, and was told that if I hated the US so much, that I should just leave. This when I brought up 9/11 in the middle of a discussion me and some people were having on JFK. Liars figure, and figures lie...

I see that we've been having, shall we say, spirited discussions on this subject since I've last posted. Let's get back on point, shall we?

1. LBJ did not under any circumstances plan the assassination of John F. Kennedy. He didn't have the know-how to pull it off, and he certainly didn't have the pull within the Eastern Establishment to cover it up. As has been pointed out in the book The Assassinations, ARRB documents clearly show that Johnson was against the idea of the Warren Commission, and had to be prodded into it by Eugene Rostow, Joe Alsop, and possibly Nick Katzenbach to do it. And why, if he had actually planned the assassination, would he put himself directly in the line of fire? Suffice to say, Johnson didn't have the pull necessary to do this. Let's stay on topic, guys.

Its amazing how many times you tell this information to the LBJ lynch mob and they just refuse to acknowledge it. Its all documented and verified. P.S Cheers this topic had gone well off of the boil.

What forum are you on for 9/11? I propose a sledgehammer

Jim and I were discussing doing a piece so as we would never have to do another dang 'Johnson did it' book review listing the myths. But we've been busy doing other stuff. Of course everybody is welcome and it would be fun to put up a myth a week there's some truly bad LBJ ones. But it would also be a good way for people to channel some energy and it would make for a relatively quick piece I could compile. Each subject and it's counter will need to have an accusation. An Author and a direct quote. I'll make sure theres no topic double up's. The counter of course needs to be sourced and looking at about a 150-200 word limit per item. Overtime we'd compile quite a list.

Of course you'll be given credit and hell if you do enough you could claim it as your piece sheesh. In fact if anybody would like to do the piece I'll help out lol.

[James Lewis]

Seamus, I'm on several forums on 9/11, but the incident I speak of was actually in public, at a casino, where a guy told me that if I weren't so large, he would have smacked me. As for the myths...do you have a forum thread big enough to fit all of them???

[Seamus Coogan]

Wrong, I'm afraid.

Not only was the plot NOT "all American and domestic," it was supra-national in origin (which is to say, at the Sponsorship and highest Facilitator levels).

The ULTIMATE False Sponsor is the nationalism/political ideology chimera.

Mate I prefer to keep it simple and stick too the tangibles.

Thats not to say your angles are 'implausible'. But I find going offshore and so forth often get's very speculative. Even with good stuff like the layers you and George Michael worked on and have seen you discuss (which I confess I have not read enough off). But as you know, there's nothing legitimately on paper saying what the head honcho's wanted and Kennedy had a lot of enemies in the US alone. Also CD isn't this getting into a theoretical sort of debate? I think it's the kind of thing you have to go into prepared to compromise on too go forward from this point.

Sure, I accept that the enemies may have been part of wider global networks. But that's the way of transnationals. Many of them are US in origin and many likely CIA fronts unto themselves. The confluence of intelligence and corporate America is another entire layer as you know. I personally think an intelligence officer wins every time. Sorry, you maybe the richest guy in the world. Hmmmm, fine well let's just see Daddy Warbucks how many CIA contacts their are on your staff and on your board that you don't have a clue about? Howard Hughes anyone?

Coming from outside the US it looks like much of the madness is coming from your direction and that madness turned itself on JFK. And it abounds in the very world we live in today. I find there's nothing hidden, the Secret Govt uuum thats a bit of a joke. I live in NZ how many freaking zillion miles away am I? Yet I know about Paris Hilton, eat McDonalds lol. It's so obvious it's in your face somethings gone wrong. I mean America's cultural Imperialism is immense. I just don't think people in the US fully comprehend it.

So with respect Charles it's extremely hard from where I am to see an international plot to kill Kennedy. International support from some quarters? For sure. I mean the Shah was well stoked but I doubt he'd know squat about the inner workings.

Like USA for Africa sung 'We are the World'

Oh yes we believed you then lol.

Dudes like Dulles, Angleton, Helms and Phillips are pretty concrete (more or less) and I've been at this for some 17-18 years (half my life) and that's where I'm at. You've been at this way longer and I respect that. For the time being I intend to sit here awhile and enjoy the view, before going above and beyond that. If I do at all. It's almost like what's the point? Once you get to that level in a way.

I look forward to your response. It's a good discussion to have.

[Mark Stapleton]

To sum it up.
LBJ was not a sponsor or the mastermind of the assassination, just a puppet that was used by the real sponsors.
Israel and Ben Gurion did not organize and sponsor the assassination. Israel is a MAJOR FALSE SPONSOR. The plot was All American and domestic.
Mossad was and still is involved in joined operations with US intelligence but that is a different matter. Angleton being a facilitator of the assassination and the handler of the Israeli desk might have used Mossad as cut outs. However we do not have the evidence to support this. We can neither prove that he did use them or that he did not.
A note for Mark Stapleton:For reasons i have explained in another thread i consider "Final Judgement" a disinformation book, blaming Israel in order to discredit the Angleton-Lansky-Bahamas banks-drug network-far east revealed in the book by assossiation with the Anti-Semite angle. You are falling in the same trap.

The only thing you got right is your statement that LBJ did not sponsor the assassination.

Don't drag up the tired old anti-semite canard. That's been used for decades to shield Israel from any and all criticism. I emphatically reject it.

And since you claim that the plot was all American and domestic, I'm hoping you'll tell us who was behind it (since you have ascertained the nationality of the plotters with such certitude).

[Mark Stapleton]

Go ahead and give us his case then.

Name the names and cite the moves made to kill Kennedy by his Israeli conspiracy.

Kennedy was killed because Israel considered his firm opposition to the Dimona project an existential threat. Ben-Gurion indicated this in his correspondence with Kennedy in 1963. Also, Kennedy insisted that military aid to Israel be tied to concessions in regard to the Palestinians. He bargained tough and wouldn't give any ground. His mistrust of Israel may have been fuelled by two incidents which occurred just before his inauguration, although this is only my opinion. They were the attempt by the Israel Lobby to purchase US Middle East policy lock, stock and barrel in return for funding prior to the 1960 election and the revelation in December 1960 that the Dimona project was more advanced than previously thought. Angleton, as head of the Israel desk at the CIA and a strong supporter of the Jewish state, is generally considered responsible for concealing this information from other US institutions.

It's clear that Israeli wasn't going to get the nuclear deterrent had Kennedy remained President and I think they were pretty sure he would win in '64.

When Johnson took over they not only got Dimona but a sevenfold increase in funding over the next three years, nearly all of it military, with no strings whatsoever. Johnson also shamefully covered for them when the Liberty was attacked by Israel in 1967. Johnson had proven his loyalty to Israel prior to November 1963 and upon becoming President he promptly surrounded himself with advisors who were staunchly Zionist. There were many other indications of Johnson's loyalty to Israel (and a healthy dose of gratitude, imo) such as Eshkol's visit to the WH in June 1964, which was the first official visit by an Israeli Prime Minister to the White House.

That's the bones of it, insofar as motive is concerned. I'm convinced that Israel was the only one of all the suspects who have been mentioned as possible sponsors who made a tangible gain from Kennedy's death. Indeed, a windfall gain. From nothing to everything.

As for naming other names, like shooters or the leaders of the cells and higher ups in the conspiracy, I can't name any. I do know that Israel had many powerful staunch allies in the media and institutions like Paley, Sarnoff and JEH, to name just a few. I know that Yitzhak Shamir befrended Mickey Cohen, Lansky and other powerful Jewish underworld figures while he was on the run in the US in the early 1950's. I know Lansky was a staunch supporter of Israel and fell in love with the country after his first visit there in 1962. I know Lansky was tied to LBJ through mutual business associates like Ed Levinson. And I know Jack Ruby was a staunch supporter of Israel and helped ship arms to the country after WW2.

I also know that Israel has a covert assassination policy dating as far back as 1948 and possibly beyond, when they murdered Folke Bernadotte (and his wife) in a motorcade in Jerusalem in 1948. He had been unanimously elected as the first ever UN mediator and was in Israel to mediate on their dispute with the Palestinians. I also know, and so do you, that Israel routinely murders humanitarian and aid workers with impunity because the US has protected them in the UN for many years.

In conclusion, I believe it highly plausible that Israel had the necessary reach and influence, through a complex network of powerful sayanim, to orchestrate Dealey Plaza and, with a loyal friend in the White House, to have carried out an effective coverup.

Now that I have done my best to answer your question will you do me the same courtesy and answer my (earlier) question? Why is Piper's book so silly?

[James Lewis]

Seamus, I agree with your point about sticking to tangibles. Too many theories tend to materialize out of thin air with very little actual "evidence" to support them. Speaking of James Angleton and the subject of tangibles, though, I know this much:

Angleton's CI/SIG group at the very least knew about assassination plots and probably participated in some.

Angleton, CI (Counterintelligence), and people who were closely connected to him (David Phillips, Winston Scott) were the source of the majority of the "Castro-did-it" disinformation spread immediately after the assassination.

Angleton's CI/SIG group (Counterintelligence/Special Investigations Group) held a CIA 201 file on Oswald, which means that at the very least, Oswald was a CIA asset, whether wittingly or unwittingly (I suspect the latter).

Angleton and SIG's treatment of defector Yuri Nosenko was a clear indication that he and the Agency wanted to make sure that Oswald would be known as a lone assassin (Remember, Nosenko said that the KGB had no operational interest in Oswald, and he was basically tortured for three years for that statement)

When you put that together with the infamous Hunt memo, which damn near admits Agency participation in the assassination, you can see that although many would like to blame the Mossad, they weren't really needed - we had enough mechanics over here.

[Albert Doyle]

I was going to point out earlier that Piper is off-topic to this thread and we should start a new thread to deal with him. I just wanted to add that the criticisms of Piper in this thread are mainly one line answers and sweeping dismissals saying "false sponsor" and "fell for the trap". (I'll read Seamus) The reason I cringe at this is because if you read 'Final Judgment' you'll see Piper has outdone those criticisms and gives extensive detail.

What is really unbelievable is that someone would try to blow-off the Miami-Bahamian bank-Swiss Banque De Credit Internacional cartel as unrelated when one can see that it was the singlemost key to the covert power structure acting against Kennedy. This proved itself in the fact it then took over as the funding backbone for the covert interests of the shadow group that killed Kennedy. They themselves always say "follow the money". Well, when you do you end up at that very cartel and its banks. This is proven again in the fact this funding power structure lasted up until Oliver North and his using it to fund the CONTRA War. The Military Industrial Complex was involved in killing Kennedy. One of their prime interests was the Israel front against both the oil-bearing arabs and iron curtain. Tibor Rosenbaum was a Mossad officer who then became the owner of Banque De Credit Internacional for the sole purpose of channeling dirty money to Israel to support its defense. When Kennedy acted against Ben Gurion's attempts to acquire nuclear weapons he basically acted against this cartel whose members included the US's Military Industrial Complex. Before being forced out under a nervous breakdown Ben Gurion told Kennedy he was "threatening the future of Israel". Israel is a messianic state, you have to watch out when they say something like that against you.

If you know how CIA operates it hides its doings behind plausible interests. Knowing the nature of CIA once you realize Israel offered a huge shield in its messianic zionism you can safely assume CIA went right for that protected shadow to conceal its most powerful interests. It would be a denial of established reality to ignore how that relationship has grown directly since the death of president Kennedy. This day's main war interests are directly centered around Israeli hegemony and that relationship. It isn't a coincidence that Israel and CIA were born within a year of each other. At the time the most important funding artery for Israel was that CIA/mob bank underground.

If you read 'Final Judgment' you'll see that this mediterranean cartel had now become the new center of gravity of CIA international power. The one thing all the players involved in Kennedy's killing had in common was either a direct or indirect relationship to this shadow government. This is why it is important to relate Clay Shaw and his relationship to both the formation of Mossad and Permindex to his connection to the New Orleans operators.


"The Jews are now backing us"


Why did Echevarria say that?

[Phil Dragoo]

In my view, and with a nod to the thread title, LBJ was not the sponsor and not a sponsor. As I continue to view him, he was one more in a series of terra cotta warriorsof which there are so many, each expendable, disposable, fossilized.


In my view Israel had precisely as much to do with killing John as the Palestinian Lone Nut's Rage over Bobby voting warplanes for Israel had to do with killing Bobby, which is to say nothing substantive, only distracting in nature.


I am fascinated by Charles' recent mention of supranational sponsorship using US military-intelligence Kabuki masks.


Were there, are there, and have there always been, men or interests who profit from war, from drug traffic, from chaos, who play on the green felt laughing at the lines, delighting in the mountains of chips.


For my own current belief, I see Angleton and Helms as most manipulative of others to accomplish the deed while concealing their agency.


Whether they serve supranational interestsmaybe they serve arms dealers, or drug dealers, or commodity tradersmilitary, criminal and financial power brokers without portfolio or flag.


At the low end are the propagandists a la the mockingbird program and its follow-on, church ladies and loud, insulting hacks celebrated by the paper of record.


Justice is in the air.

[James Lewis]

Thank you, Phil, for summing things up nicely, or at least nicely enough for me.

Israel and the Mossad are false sponsors, as much as the Cubans or Soviets were in the days following the assassination.

I think the key to finding out who sponsored the assassination lies in finding out who had the extra-governmental power to:

1. Force an army battalion stationed less than 300 miles from to stand down and not protect the President, contrary to policy.

2. Strip the Secret Service protection from Kennedy to the extent that it was.

3. Force a change in the motorcade route the day of the assassination and have the first route, which was printed on the front page of the Dallas Morning News, grayed out with no mention of the change.

All of these things, much like Joe Alsop's pressuring Johnson to create what became the Warren Commission, probably came from powerful forces outside the government.

If we figure out some of the answers to those questions, we might actually learn something.

[Seamus Coogan]

To sum it up.
LBJ was not a sponsor or the mastermind of the assassination, just a puppet that was used by the real sponsors.
Israel and Ben Gurion did not organize and sponsor the assassination. Israel is a MAJOR FALSE SPONSOR. The plot was All American and domestic.
Mossad was and still is involved in joined operations with US intelligence but that is a different matter. Angleton being a facilitator of the assassination and the handler of the Israeli desk might have used Mossad as cut outs. However we do not have the evidence to support this. We can neither prove that he did use them or that he did not.
A note for Mark Stapleton:For reasons i have explained in another thread i consider "Final Judgement" a disinformation book, blaming Israel in order to discredit the Angleton-Lansky-Bahamas banks-drug network-far east revealed in the book by assossiation with the Anti-Semite angle. You are falling in the same trap.

The only thing you got right is your statement that LBJ did not sponsor the assassination.

Don't drag up the tired old anti-semite carnard. That's been used for decades to shield Israel from any and all criticism. I emphatically reject it.

And since you claim that the plot was all American and domestic, I'm hoping you'll tell us who was behind it (since you have ascertained the nationality of the plotters with such certitude).

That I have too correct you on your spelling Mark is a shocking indictment (well no to be fair my spelling is better than my grammar, but not as good as it used to be). Why not front up too what Jim asked of before you go off demanding answers of other people like Vasilios. Whose made it pretty clear in my discussions with him that he has an interest in the Eastern Establishment. Namely Don Gibson. Why should he have to justify himself to Jim Phelps clone? Anyhow, I'll let Vasilios deal with you.