New 911 Book - What happened and why we don't know what happend!

[Jeffrey Orling]

It is not my job, role or interest to convince you or anyone of anything. Like the experts you believe in such as the very wrong David Chandler who is not a physicists and does not have a degree in Physics but is a high school physics teacher you look to as physics expert, I present information and in this case a book by Tom about the observations of the collapses of all three towers.

What he shows is that the observables do no show controlled demolition. PERIOD. He does not speculate on what initiated the gravity driven collapses. On the other hand he also sees no evidence of explosives of incendiares either. You can't prove or disprove something you can't see or generate data from.

But we are close to understand how and where the initiation likely was. Note the word LIKELY. That's because from a physics and engineering perspective if you break the frame at those likely locations... it produces the observables we have from that day.

I can assure you that if someone wanted to demolish those towers... they would have planned it by studying the structure and attacking it with the least effort and the most reliable approach. Oh I forgot...they were staging a show and so it had to appear as it was from plane strikes and office fires.. so not extremely loud explosions and no blown apart steel frames and the usual evidence of massive explosions of structures... no no no... this has to be a high tech job that LOOKS like a collapse... makes no explosive noise.. leaves no exploded steel or any evidence of explosives. Right Lauren... what was the evidence that convinced you.

If you look to the OCT or JREF you will find the same quality of rubbish that the truth movement *researchers* have presented. By the way one of the truth movement published researches, Gordon Ross PE has withdrawn from the truth movement because their is willful ignorance and lots of armchair experts who know boo. He's also agreed with my work.

Who are the reseachers who you think have done excellent work?

David Chandler - mis applies thermodynamics
Jonathan Cole - admitted to me in email that he forget about Euler Buckling
Steven Jones - lied about the diagonal cut column
Jim Hoffman - claims that the ceiling tiles were painted with nano thermite on 100 floors???
Niels Harrit - organic chemist retired who discusses thermo dynamics and physics as if he knows what he's talking about

Ignorance is bliss... that's why it's so common.

[Lauren Johnson]

Jeffrey,

What [Tom] shows is that the observables do no[t] show controlled demolition. PERIOD. He does not speculate on what initiated the gravity driven collapses. On the other hand he also sees no evidence of explosives of incendiares either. You can't prove or disprove something you can't see or generate data from.

I give up. Again.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Lauren,

You want to discuss a highly complex technical event... I'm up for it. You give up because you apparently cannot discuss any of the physics, engineering or even the actually observations.

What is the evidence you believe is irrefutable in support of controlled demolition... that is... evidence could not be from a non CD cause?

You've been studying this for several years you wrote... you must have learned something to convince you... It won't hurt... say it.

[Lauren Johnson]

Lauren,

You want to discuss a highly complex technical event... I'm up for it. You give up because you apparently cannot discuss any of the physics, engineering or even the actually observations.

Talk about a slam. Ufda.

What is the evidence you believe is irrefutable in support of controlled demolition... that is... evidence could not be from a non CD cause?

You've been studying this for several years you wrote... you must have learned something to convince you... It won't hurt... say it.

Jeffrey, we approach this from very different directions. You don't like it. As I understand yours, you say ROOSD is possible. Since there is no compelling evidence for CD, therefore it is likely that the buildings came down by ROOSD, even though there were some aspects of inside job involved.

I see a Gestalt -- a made for television special that was over in a couple of hours with instant re-runs sponsored by trans-national interests. The buildings had to come for this to work. Damaged buildings sitting there with nosy inspectors crawling all over them, all kinds of forensic personnel, news camera teams, etc. Worse, the question of who was at fault would have been much harder to suppress. What a nightmare that would have been. The buildings had to be down quickly.

I find the evidence presented by high school teacher Mr. Chandler, AE911T, etc. sufficient and compelling. It turns on evidence that you denigrate and that I find compelling. We have to agree to disagree.

Is ROOSD possible? I guess. How would I know.

I do note that your point of view has not attracted a lot of attention. I await more commentary from Phil "The Poet" Dragoo.

[Carsten Wiethoff]

This is just to make clear that there are a lot of observations that in my humble opinion can not be explained by plane impact.
To quote William Rodriguez:

All of a sudden at 8:46… we hear 'BOOM!' An explosion so powerful and so loud that push us upward in the air coming from below! It was so powerful that all the walls cracked, the false ceiling fell on top of us, the fire sprinkler system got activated and everybody started screaming in horror: 'HELP! HELP! HELP!'

Or help me understand the destruction in the lobby of WTC1 when Chief Pfeiffer and one of the Naudets arrived.

I just don't buy the jet fuel explanation.:nono:

[Jeffrey Orling]

Carl,

The sub basement of tower 1 contained massive electrical switches and transformers and the largest refrigeration plant in the world. In 1992... not '93 one or more of the transformers exploded and the insulting oil which cools them which is very flammable caught fire. Mr Rodriguez may know of this incident if he was there at the time.

Electrical shorts can generator extreme temperatures.. try connect to the terminals of your car batter with a fork and see what happens... the fork will melt!

The electrical power for the twin towers comes from the Con Ed sub station under building 7 and it receives power from a larger one in Motthaven in the Bronx Power is like a river system in reverse... it floors from the wide powerful river into smaller and small tributaries. Transformers are how the power is separated into smaller currents (voltage and amperage). Stepping power down or up with transformers generates enormous heat and these devices must be cooled by *radiators*. The radiators are filled with an oil which is flammable and when heat releases an explosive gas. This makes these devices very dangerous and vulnerable to explosions. Transformers, large and small explode all the time.

When a unit is taken off line and begins to cool down it pulls in moisture. If it it not properly dehumidified the moisture heats and becomes steam explosion.. and then you can have electrical shorts and so on. Read up on power transformers.. there were scores and scores of the in the twin towers and massive one's under building 7.

William Rodriquez told me when asked specifically that he heard an explosion... and did not say a bomb. And does not know if it was a bomb. He told me he never heard a power transformer explode and that it could have been that. He said it was a loud explosion about a second before the plane struck.

The damage in the Lobby was from multiple sources.. some fuel came down the elevator shaft and ignited and perhaps was aerosolized and exploded... and there were the explosions of the electrical and refrigeration below in the sub basement.

William likely heard/experienced a transformer explosion at the precise moment of impact of the plane.. and the SOUND a second later since sound travels slower the electricity. The sub basement explosion was caused by the plane strike shorting out large power cables running up to the top of the building's 2 13.8 kv sub stations.

The plane strike also caused a short up stream in the power station under building 7 at 0846 the precise moment of the plane strike. Con Ed reported this outage... and up to 8 - 13kv feeders shortly thereafter... as the electrical system was experiencing a cascading failure from shorts.

There are other rational explanations for the observations. But you have to look and do some study of the building and its systems to understand what was happening.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Lauren,
The problem with your approach and likely most of the "truthers" is that frankly haven't absorbed what Naomi Klien has presented in The Shock Doctrine - the Rise of Disaster Capitalism... here is a wiki link in case you haven't read the book. One of course doesn't have to have read the book to understand Ms Klein's thesis, but she lays out this analysis brilliantly in her book. How does this apply 9/11 and your and the typical truther approach?

In brief... It doesn't matter whether a major event was purposefully caused such as an assassination, a false flag attack... or an *act of nature* such a a hurricane or a tsunami... the same actors rush in an push their agenda, grab more cash, more resources, more control. The never sit around and let government acting as the fiduciary for the people sort hings out with the least harm and pain on top of the tragedy. No they act like predatory vultures each and every time.

The main problem with the truther position is that it completely dismisses the existence of non state terrorism although there are the occasional feints to the notion (true) that AQ was a CIA created group to fight a proxy war with the USSR in Afganistan.

Many insiders from the CIA beginning with Philip Agee told us about the illegal activities of the CIA in formenting assassinations etc. for the benefit of the MIC and the corporations. Ike warned of the power of MIC which seemed to be like a shadow government ... or was our congress the shadow and the MIC was calling the moves. Any student f history is well aware of US imperialism and "adventurism" around the world which virtually ALWAYS benefits the MIC and the transnational corporations.

We've also seen virtually no accountability for misdeed by individuals or corporations over the past 60 yrs. At most a slap on the wrist and it's back to free market capitalism the quest for control of the world's resources. On 911 the slackers were even promoted!

We know from several of the investigation commissions over the past half century that these are sort of white washes and little to no accountability or justice comes from them. Iran Contra? Warren? Pike?..Watergate... there are so many names and so little change. Cover up is the middle name for these commissions. You want to call it lying and deception.. fine.

And then there is the question of whether terrorism actually exists and what it is? There are certainly non state groups who struggle against state power... such as the Sandinistas which actually got power and control as did Castro and others. They fight, they use terrorism techniques such as the Irgun, Jewish terrorists which fought the brits in the Palestine mandate and they of course blew up the King David Hotel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks).

Terrorism is real. And the cause is essentially a weaker oppressed group fighting a stronger nation... and not fighting on the battlefield and often taking the lives of innocents in a sort of blackmail approach... since they can engage an army on a battlefield... usually.

The USA has created the terrorists we now claim we must fight against. How bout that!

So the truth movement basically says the event was all staged up to make it LOOK like terrorism and anyway we ARE the terrorist creators anyway... it was a simple false flag op. Makes sense.

Unfortunately it negates the notion that there are terrorists that are pissed off at the USA and would and have engaged in terrorists acts against us such as Khobar towers, the embassy in Nairobi and attacked the USS Cole. The xams and shoe bombers look like FBI/Intel sting ops... mini shock and awe to keep the cash coming to the MIC and keep the people scared.

Truthers refuse to consider that there were actual terrorists involved in 911 - it was all a stage show. Not even a sting operation where the *insiders* know of the coming event and *did something* with that knowledge. NO NO NO. The insiders DID it all from soup to nuts.

break... more to follow

[Lauren Johnson]

Jeffrey,

Yes, I have read Klein's book twice. It is a classic. I recommend it all the time, when I sense someone is not rolling their eyes at me. Her lens is the class struggle and her mentor is David Harvey, a Marxist economist. She does not adopt a deep political point of view -- her main weakness.

On to your main point, I do indeed think that what we call terrorists exist at the pleasure of the their sponsors who are trans-national, powerful, and nameless. Anybody who thinks they can seriously muscle into the terror game will not last very long. The most serious terrorist, from their point of view, are the victims of disaster capitalism. And they are being dealt with.

You need some lessons in deep politics. Fortunately, you are in the right place. But a word of warning Look. Don't make me turn you over to Charles Drago for your grade school lessons in deep politics and black ops. Don't make me do it, man.

[Phil Dragoo]

I thought the puffs of smoke were poetic

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,
Angel-headed hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection
to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night,


The transformers and their insulating fluid sparked to fiery afterburner

Silver planes of Beluchistan's animal farmhouse

Watched over by the sword and the shield of the House of Midas

Noriega, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden

our children are sent to school and taught when to misbehave

and then we eat them

ten years after they, like Chinese food, need reinforcement

Look! There's Iran!

The IRGC is in Bolivia

and some good smack, too

Naked Lunch is a moveable feast

The All-Seeing Eye knew damn' well the hijackers were on-time and on-schedule

on-course and the wars were on

John O'Neill knew, too

And if the house of cards stood too steady

why, then, Puff the Magic Dragon clicked a mouse

and brought down the house

I grow old I grow old I will wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled

That it was a contrived event is inarguable


Does this argument make my ass look tired

[Jeffrey Orling]

You don't think there are terrorists and they are all run by corporate interests? That the hegomony and imperialism does not bread resentment and liberation struggles?

Sure terrorists get themselves some deep pockets to buy them weapons. And likely those supplying the weapons are using these angry people to their advantage.

Sorry, you need to take off your DP glasses at times... And I don't care what Drago has to teach about this. He's not the sole arbiter of how things work, as I am not, nore Naomi Klein.

However when it comes to technical matters, mechanics, physics, engineering, optics and so forth deep politics has not standing.

And that is precisely my criticsm. Science approaches events without a political view. It explains the world in the most objective manner, repeatable, testable and reliable. Not subject to interpretation of opinion. Not left, right or center.

Means motive and opportunity are all political and not technical. They are not evidence about the technical event.

You guys can't figure out the technical issues because of your ideological blinders.