Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[David Josephs]

Well Albert... I am trying to say that the Echevarria quote had to do with Anti-Castro Cuba's NEW BACKERS... not JFK's assassination.

And of course if ther was involvement it would have been before 11/21... but NEW BACKERS as of that day equated to Israel, to me, is a stretch that requires a bit more citing of evidence.

I'm not sure if you've read Final Judgment? Piper does a good job of showing how those two interests, Castro and Dallas, were practically indistinguishable according to the needs of the cabal. As I already wrote, those who assassinated Kennedy were taking care of the wants of different groups like the Israelis and the Cubans. However if you read Piper you'll see their interests were merged through the Mediterranean underground Swiss bank dirty money laundry network that directly benefited all involved as one mutual cause.

With all due respect your entry reads like an attempt to ignore all this and seek a separation between those interests that Piper has already disproven. There's a reason the exiles were so involved in the assassination and it isn't because those actions were mutually exclusive. Again, if you read Final Judgment you'll find the evidence you call for explained in extensive detail. Also, if you read these posts, you still haven't explained what exactly Echevarria meant by that? Like I said before, there's no doubt Echevarria was referring to a new group of backers other than the previous group. Well, the previous group was everyone we already know, like JMWAVE, the Banister group, the Sturgis Miami group, Ruby, Interpen, etc.. So why would Echevarria be referring to this new group specifically as "Jews"? And who then does that make them? What Piper does a good job of showing is how this Lansky-led jewish syndicate treasurer group was, to a man, zealously pro-zionist. He also shows how this loyalty was bound in concrete through the Mediterranean underground and Swiss money laundry banks. I bet some who have been getting away with dismissing all this as "anti-semitism" are itching to accuse me of that, however, as is apparent from their silence, Piper's evidence wins-out over those accusations because it is based in provable fact. Sorry, David, but I think it's obvious you're asking for evidence beyond the obvious and the only way you can float your position is if you ignore the death struggle Ben Gurion had with Kennedy over nuclear weapons and the timeliness of Echevarria's comment. Not being able to describe who those "new jew backers" were is, to me, like saying "I need you to prove the spark was responsible for the explosion." The onus is clearly backwards here, in my opinion. I also think the Liberty was directly related to the free feeling this cabal had over what they had gotten away with with Kennedy. Something, no matter how some try to assign it to rogues, was inevitably protected by their host bureaucracies.

Did the Mossad, Mafia, CIA, SS, FBI, MIC, ONI, etc, etc... kill JFK? No
Did MEMBERS of these organizations get manipulated into a position to cooperate or else...and manipulate others to do the same?

To me, that's a big yes.

My problem with this is that you just admitted Mossad probably did have some involvement. (Angleton was directly involved in the formation of Mossad through the OSS) If you mention the involvement of any of those other groups you'll have no problem. However if you mention the involvement of Mossad you'll be crushed and vilified as a vile anti-semite. Even by conspiracy exposers. Perhaps Piper ignored the greater evidence to flirt with the suggestion Ben Gurion was the Sponsor and initiator. He's wrong on that because a total analysis of the entire conspiracy shows it predates Ben Gurion's problem and originates from US-oriented groups and interests. However he's dead-on in showing the network that Israel was tied to as facilitators. Something no serious, objective Assassination researcher has the right to ignore or dismiss as "anti-semitism".

Who were the 'Jews' Echevarria was referring to? And what was their agenda? Honestly David, which cause would "new backer jews" be more likely to get behind, Cuba or Dimona? And do you understand that the network Piper elaborates shows that support of Cuba was indeed support of Dimona through that network?


Unfortunately Piper's evidence makes frightening sense. There's another consideration that probably drove Ben Gurion to the breaking point. If his consent in Kennedy's assassination was exposed it might threaten the future existence of his nation. If somehow the fact Ben Gurion, or zionist covert interests, participated in Kennedy's assassination got out and was known by the American public it could possibly cause fatal political damage to Israel. That was something Ben Gurion had to weigh. The only way he would give approval to 'new jew backers' would be if CIA gave a guarantee that this information would never the see the light of day in the US media. And, once again, low and behold, what do we see post-assassination? We see an unprecedented Operation Mockingbird censoring and corruption of the US media directly oriented to this interest. Again, David, forgive me if I groan slightly when you so sincerely call for evidence...

Fair enough Albert... but so far you've cited ONE author... one. And I've read, from people I respect, how Piper's book may or may not be definitive... but to be fair, I have not read it or am familiar with it... yet I have read reviews and analysis of it... what are your thoughts of these first sentences of a review?

"There seems to be a lot of misperception of what Final Judgment does and does not say about the JFK assassination. The book does not say that "the Jews killed JFK." That's horse manure. What the book does say is that: When New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison charged businessman Clay Shaw with participation in the JFK assassination conspiracy Garrison stumbled upon the Israeli Mossad connection to the murder of President Kennedy. Shaw served on the board of a shadowy corporation known as Permindex. A primary shareholder in Permindex was the Banque De Credit International of Geneva, founded by Tibor Rosenbaum, an arms procurer and financier for the Mossad."

What's more, the book is not--I repeat--not "anti-Semitic" and the book has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the Holocaust. In fact, anybody familiar with any of the standard writings on the JFK assassination will recognize the names of some of the key players in the scenario Piper documents: Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Guy Banister and James J. Angleton of the CIA--and none of them were Jewish. So where this reviewer gets off saying that Piper finds "a Jew under every rock" is beyond me. I have read literally hundreds of books and magazine articles and other material on the JFK assassination and not in a single one of them--with the exception of Final Judgment--did I ever learn that President John F. Kennedy was trying to stop Israel from building the nuclear bomb and that this literally touched off a "secret war" behind the scenes between JFK and Israel's prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, who resigned (among other reasons) in disgust over JFK's policies with Israel. In fact, Israeli historian Avner Cohen in his book, Israel and the Bomb, documents this quite thoroughly.

Th[B]anks... and while I will get into the Piper book as soon as I can to better understand, I wonder if we can't get a more definitive take on it from the members here???[/B]


I also know that I can quote you from multiple books how it was the Mafia, The CFR/Int'l Bankers, CIA rogues, KGB Double agents, now the Mossad/CIA, Cubans, Programmed Phillipinos, and on and on and on...

I am more than willing to agree with you that MEMBERS of these groups could have been involved together... no doubt...
I also have to realize that there are many more than any one single reason for WANTING JFK DEAD among these groups....
- i.e. Did the Mafia want JFK dead so they could get back to Cuba? get Robert off their backs? just plain revenge and evil?
Did the Bankers want him dead due to his order to print money? his desire to cut off the endless flow of military spending and government borrowing?
Did LBJ just want to be president with the help of Mac Wallace?

that these groups BENEFITTED from the outcome, and/or simply took advantage of the outcome is not great mystery. But Organizations do not accomplish these things.. people do... the "JEWS" were not any more involved as was the "CIA" yet Jewish people representing the interests of Israel (among other things), and CIA men representing THEIR interests in a struggle against the new policies of the POTUS were most definitely involved... and it branches from there. You wouldn't say the people of MONTREAL were involved just cause people from Montreal are in the conspirators list...

I have no problem agreeing that those involved had many, many connections and they included forwarding the war/weapon related interests of Israel as we are their primary source for just about everything... good for business.
Bu that connection exists with or without Echevarria's statement.

Maybe help me understand how his comment on 11/21 leads specifically back to the Mossad involved in the assassination -= especially the NEW part.
Please start by explaining the weapons list in the Echevarria report (below) and how that relates to JFK's assassination as opposed to invading Cuba... and how these weapons were not discussed until well after the assassination?

I remind you I am NOT challenging Piper... just your contention that Echevarria's statement has to do with Cuba and NOT JFK....

thanks
DJ

[Mark Stapleton]

Th[B]anks... and while I will get into the Piper book as soon as I can to better understand, I wonder if we can't get a more definitive take on it from the members here???[/B]

That won't be easy. Most members here haven't bothered to read it.

[David Josephs]

Th[B]anks... and while I will get into the Piper book as soon as I can to better understand, I wonder if we can't get a more definitive take on it from the members here???[/B]

That won't be easy. Most members here haven't bothered to read it.

I would imagine there is a very good reason.... when one out of an entire community sings praises while others are very hesitent to give it any credibility, something is up.

I started Sy Hearsch's book but had to put it down as I kept getting vomit on the pages...


Of course anything anti-Israel is very taboo in the US... yet please let's not forget that Israel is 7.7million among 380million Arabs...
and was lucky enough to find the one stretch of dessert that had no oil under it...

Those stats do not sanction anything of course... yet I'd venture to say that the world has much more to be concerned about with the 380M Arabs (and THIER connections to the MIC) then Israel.
On the other side of that coin... Israel is hand-in-hand with the US in the area of internet/business/government security... they have the keys to MANY kingdoms..

That level of information and access is almost unparalleled - yet who is on whose side in cyberspace is anybody's guess...

DJ

[Mark Stapleton]

Th[B]anks... and while I will get into the Piper book as soon as I can to better understand, I wonder if we can't get a more definitive take on it from the members here???[/B]

That won't be easy. Most members here haven't bothered to read it.

I would imagine there is a very good reason.... when one out of an entire community sings praises while others are very hesitent to give it any credibility, something is up.

Perhaps when the first edition of Piper's book was published twenty odd years ago that may have been the case, but not now.

Over the past two decades I've seen a growing number of researchers and commentators coming around to the idea that Israel was involved in the JFK assassination. The hysterical accusations of anti-semitism are slowly giving way to the realisation that there might be something in this. I don't think 9/11, Operation Cast Lead, the attack on the Mavi Mara and other highly publicised incidents have been good for Israeli PR.

With Israel now petulantly demanding a war weary and bankrupt US drag itself into yet another conflict on their behalf, this time with the potential of setting the entire Middle East aflame, many in the west are now seeing Israel for what it is--a brutal occupying force with no intention of making peace with its neighbours.

Anyone with a grain of genuine curiosity about what happened to JFK, and RFK for that matter, would read the book if only, as I said before, to put it to rest once and for all. There are way too many factors pointing to Israeli involvement for a genuine curiosity to ignore.

[Mark Stapleton]

yet please let's not forget that Israel is 7.7million among 380million Arabs...
and was lucky enough to find the one stretch of dessert that had no oil under it...

....as Golda Meir was fond of saying.

But the Palestinians were even unluckier I think.

[Albert Doyle]

that these groups BENEFITTED from the outcome, and/or simply took advantage of the outcome is not great mystery. But Organizations do not accomplish these things.. people do... the "JEWS" were not any more involved as was the "CIA" yet Jewish people representing the interests of Israel (among other things), and CIA men representing THEIR interests in a struggle against the new policies of the POTUS were most definitely involved... and it branches from there. You wouldn't say the people of MONTREAL were involved just cause people from Montreal are in the conspirators list...

I have no problem agreeing that those involved had many, many connections and they included forwarding the war/weapon related interests of Israel as we are their primary source for just about everything... good for business.
Bu that connection exists with or without Echevarria's statement.

Maybe help me understand how his comment on 11/21 leads specifically back to the Mossad involved in the assassination -= especially the NEW part.
Please start by explaining the weapons list in the Echevarria report (below) and how that relates to JFK's assassination as opposed to invading Cuba... and how these weapons were not discussed until well after the assassination?

I remind you I am NOT challenging Piper... just your contention that Echevarria's statement has to do with Cuba and NOT JFK....

thanks
DJ

You need to read Final Judgment to realize how what I've already explained precludes any need to discuss specious weapons lists. Your entry is regressive and doesn't recognize how what I wrote precludes it. What Piper does is show how CIA used the power and political interests of both Israel and the jewish treasurers of the US syndicate to create a shadow government based on the relationship CIA established with the US mafia under their Operation Underworld. This relationship was reformed with a new Israel-based center during Kennedy's administration. While the persons surrounding the Dallas conspiracy were Cuba-oriented, the funding network was solidly associated with Israel and the mob's jewish treasurers headed by ardent zionist Meyer Lansky. You can't wiggle out of this because it's all based in fact. I personally don't buy this "everybody had a little share of the blame" excuse because all the other groups you cite didn't disproportionately benefit from the result. If you look at Israel it was the main beneficiary of Kennedy's assassination and CIA dovetailed its power along with them. What you are doing, David, is pointing to all the suspects while one has a giant bag of loot over their shoulder and trying to sell that each one had a little part. Israel is now the US military's reason d'etre and the main focus of their power efforts is right in line with Israel. None of those other equal share culprits you cite has the most powerful lobby in history sitting in the middle of the US government corrupting it out of its democracy. There's no argument, as Piper correctly points out, that the point of origin of this Israeli power is the Kennedy assassination and the assumption of CIA power that followed. The correct definition of that increase in power is more nuanced and finessed than your oversimplified version provides. Piper describes it in detail and so far no credible assassination researcher has bothered to refute him via the facts. The facts are what count here, David, and so far, including yourself, no one has managed to touch them. In the end, what is painfully obvious is -that- is what counts the most and everything else is just excuses. Your "guns don't kill people, people do" viewpoint above doesn't account for Britain's unusually low gun murder rate. And for you to suggest that Israel simply took advantage of "the outcome" insults all the information Piper provides to show how deeply they were involved via that CIA/mob Swiss bank underground in advance. Israel was too directly connected to both Clay Shaw's Permindex; Angleton's nuclear smuggling behind JFK's back, and also the CIA's promise of continued funding through that dirty Swiss bank network to not be involved. You can't ignore the power and influence the zionist lobby had on the framework and funding source of that underground government through the Lansky/Rosenbaum/Mossad connection. That's the elephant!

I remind you I am NOT challenging Piper... just your contention that Echevarria's statement has to do with Cuba and NOT JFK....

I don't think you are comprehending what I'm writing. I was saying Echevarria's statement doesn't have anything to do with Cuba. It has to do with zionists influencing the assassination. Until you can explain who exactly Echevarria was referring to you're missing the point. Do you realize not one single person has attempted to explain what Echevarria meant by that? That automatically validates Piper by default, in my opinion.

[David Josephs]

You need to read Final Judgment to realize how what I'vealready explained precludes any need to discuss specious weapons lists. Yourentry is regressive and doesn't recognize how what I wrote precludes it.
What Piper does is show how CIA used the power and politicalinterests of both Israel and the jewish treasurers of the US syndicate tocreate a shadow government based on the relationship CIA established with theUS mafia under their Operation Underworld.
It sounds to me as if you are sayingthat this "syndicate", this "shadow government" was not already in existence. That the Rothschild/Morgan/Rockefeller SHADOWGOVERNMENT that controlled economics and politics since before the turn of the20[SUP]th[/SUP] century with involvement in whatever you want to call the US UNDERWORLD AND MIC of the time. JEWISH& European bankers and their representatives had been doing this to thecountries of Europe for centuries… yetall of a sudden, you think that the CIA, the Mafia and the Bankers createdsomething NEW? In the mid 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century? Please Albert… it's as if you;ve dismissedhistory up to the creation of the NEW cabal… when in reality it was the SOSdifferent day, different name… if you have not read "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" - you might - it provides the background for this cabal and the influences on US and world politics... in 1907, when Morgan and the Rothschilds help create the Panic

"The lesson of the Panic of 1907 was clear, though not for some six years was it destined to be embodied in legislation: the United States gravely needed a central banking system…"
"This act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth… When the President signs this act the invisible government by the money power, proven to exist by the Money Trust investigation, will be legalized…"

JFK and Israel's bomb may have played a part years later... but please stop trying to convince me or anyone else that this situation was the product the mid 20th century when it startyed in the late 1700's.
This relationship was reformed with a new Israel-basedcenter during Kennedy's administration. While the persons surrounding theDallas conspiracy were Cuba-oriented, the funding network was solidlyassociated with Israel and the mob's jewish treasurers headed by ardent zionistMeyer Lansky. You can't wiggle out of this because it's all based in fact.
So the oil money about as far fromJews as it gets - could not have been the funding source for the JFK assassination…. And I did transpose Cuba & JFK, my bad,sorry. I meant that Echevarria's commentwas exclusively about Cuba, NOT JFK.
I am not wiggling nor trying Albertand I really wish you would not make this personal… I am attempting to understand your positionas you've developed it from reading Piper and other research… That I have not accepted it hook/line/sinkerdoes not mean I disagree… I have notread Piper, yet have ready MANY, MANY itemson the subject… Killing JFK was PART ofa plan, not ALL of the plan… He waskilled for very specific reasons and while I see that Bloomfield was involvedin the financing, there were MANY SOURCES of funds… I have yet to see the connection betweenBloomfield and the assassination itself.
I personally don'tbuy this "everybody had a little share of the blame" excuse becauseall the other groups you cite didn't disproportionately benefit from theresult. If you look at Israel it was the main beneficiary of Kennedy'sassassination and CIA dovetailed its power along with them.
Really? The Vietnam war and ALL is militaryexpenditures PLUS the removal of the French/Corsican drug trade to place theUS/SE Asia drug trade squarely in control with its BILLIONS in profit goinginto the coffers of those who ran it were NOT the main benefactors… LBJ,becomes president NOT a benefactor, Hoover keeps power not a benefactor… Do you honestly believe that Israel and theUSA would not have continued on their path as allies with Israel receivingBILLIONS/TRILLIONS $$ had JFK not been assassinated? Have you read JFK and the UNSPEAKABLE? JFK threatened the entire way the WORLD ELITE didbusiness and how the WORLD ELITE controls its masses… I am sorry Albert, but to make this about Israel and Israel only is imo,very near-sighted.
What you are doing, David, is pointing to all the suspectswhile one has a giant bag of loot over their shoulder and trying to sell thateach one had a little part. Israel is now the US military's reason d'etre andthe main focus of their power efforts is right in line with Israel.
None of those other equal share culprits you cite has themost powerful lobby in history sitting in the middle of the US governmentcorrupting it out of its democracy. There's no argument, as Piper correctlypoints out, that the point of origin of this Israeli power is the Kennedyassassination and the assumption of CIA power that followed.
Sorry, but I disagree with yourconclusion. The corruption of the USAdid not begin in 1947/48… Was theregreat and tremendous power behind the creation of the Israel state and the "jews"of the world in its support especially the USA… of course. I disagree that the POINT OF ORIGIN of Israel'spower is the JFK assassination…
The correct definition of that increase in power is more nuancedand finessed than your oversimplified version provides. Piper describes it indetail and so far no credible assassination researcher has bothered to refutehim via the facts.
Albert we get already that you area Piper disciple… that whatever he says is golden and the only truth worthdiscussing… Since you have read and memorized the book if you could expand on the following list as to what FACTS you'd like refuted… I will look into them.


In the pages of "Final Judgment" the Israeliconnection to the JFK assassination is explored in frightening--and fullydocumented--detail. For example, did you know:
* That JFK was engaged in a bitter secret conflict withIsrael over U.S. East policy and that Israel's prime minister resigned indisgust, saying JFK's stance threatened Israel's very survival?
* That JFK's successor, Lyndon Johnson, immediately reversedAmerica's policy toward Israel?
* That the top Mafia figures often alleged to be behind theJFK assassination were only front men for Meyer Lansky?
* That the CIA's liaison to the Mossad, James Angleton, was aprime mover behind the cover-up of the JFK assassination?
The facts are what count here, David, and so far, includingyourself, no one has managed to touch them. In the end, what is painfullyobvious is -that- is what counts the most and everything else is just excuses.Your "guns don't kill people, people do" viewpoint above doesn'taccount for Britain's unusually low gun murder rate.
What I said was "ORGANIZATIONS DON'TKILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE" so please if you're going to quote me do itcorrectly. "But Organizations do not accomplish thesethings.. people do" and as I asked… listadditional FACTS that Piper offers that convinces you of the connection…
Evidence that is OBVIOUS to youstill needs authentication and corroboration… there is no argument that the connection and ideologies were/arethere. That money moved thru this systemand that some of the KEY players are right there for the observation.
And for you to suggest that Israel simply took advantage of"the outcome" insults all the information Piper provides to show howdeeply they were involved via that CIA/mob Swiss bank underground in advance.Israel was too directly connected to both Clay Shaw's Permindex; Angleton'snuclear smuggling behind JFK's back, and also the CIA's promise of continuedfunding through that dirty Swiss bank network to not be involved.
And THIS is the crux of the matter… after all the OBVIOUS EVIDENCE yourconclusion is stated as a theory, an hypothesis… "with all these connection and coincidencesand personnel HOW CAN THE ISRAELI'S NOT BE INVOLVED… "involved" is not the same as planned andauthored Albert… and I really don't mind"insulting" Piper's research and information as I have yet to AUTHENTICATE ANDCORROBORATE it, or see you do it…
If Piper offered documentation thatshows Bloomfield ordered anything, or organized anything.. love to see it. Putting all the eggs into Piper's basket,again, seems near-sighted to me.
You can't ignore the power and influence the zionist lobbyhad on the framework and funding source of that underground government throughthe Lansky/Rosenbaum/Mossad connection. That's the elephant!
Again Albert… are you really sayingthat this was the one and only funding source for this Underground Government that if it wasn't the Jews of the USA/Israel there was no threat to JFK?
You seem to be IGNORING every otherplayer in the game and are fixated on it being Piper's way or no way…. While YOU may be there, I and many others,are not…
So I will go back to the question… why do you believe that Echevarria's commenthad to do ONLY with the JFK assassination and not the Cuban situation instead given the timing and the actual weapons he was dealing with?

I went out and did a little research on Permindex
Seems to me Albert, that Permindexwas a bit more than Bloomfield, Jews, and Mafia…. And the long article that follows on themdoes not even include the letters "JEW" unless speaking of Nagy's friend (seebold below) Given what he did to thejews, you don't find the FOUNDER of PERMINDEX a bit of an affront to any JEWwho knew what he did?
Initial BoardMembers on the Swiss incorporation papers in 1958:[SUP][9][/SUP]

• Louis Bloomfield, Lawyer, President
  
• Ferenc Nagy, former anti-Communist Prime Minister Hungarian
  
• Georgio Mantello aka George Mantello aka George Mandel, alleged "rescuer" of Jewish refugees and official founder of PERMINDEX
  
• Roy Marcus Cohn, US lawyer for Senator Joseph McCarthy, Lionel Corporation
  
• Joseph Bonanno, Mafia figure, Lionel Corporation
  
• Jean Menu de Ménil, owner of Schlumberger Limited
  
• Paul Raigorodsky
  
• Count Guitierez di Spadafora, Undersecretary of Agriculture for Benito Mussolini
  
• Hans Seligman, Basel, Switzerland banker
  
• Carlo d'Amelio, Italian Lawyer, Head Consul for Centro Mondiale Commerciale (CMC)
  
• Max Hageman, newspaper editor National ZeitungMunich
  
• Munir Chourbagi, uncle to King Farouk of Egypt
  
• Giuseppe Zigotti, Italian Fascist
  
• Ferenc H. Simonfay, Major-General in Hungary and Nazi collaborator [1]
  
• Clay Shaw, New OrleansInternational Trade Mart[SUP][4][/SUP]
  

http://ce399fascism.wordpress.com/2010/08/05/the-origins-of-permindex/
After [Clay] Shaw's arrest, Jim Garrison received from RalphSchoenman, philosopher Bertrand Russell's secretary in London, copies of a series of articles published inan Italian newspaper of the independent left called Paesa Sera. The articleshad been assigned six months earlier to expose the CIA's pernicious attempt toinfluence European electoral politics and to thwart the democratic process inmore than one country. They focused on Centro Mondiale Commerciale,' the worldtrade center in Rome, as a CIA front, one modeled, according to a 1958 StateDepartment document, on the original CIA-created International Trade Mart inNew Orleans. Paese Sera, of course, did not possess this document. Its evidencecame first hand.
Contro Mondiale Commerciale was, by the US government's ownadmission, a CIA front, channeling money not only into legal political parties,but also into right-wing movements. Among them was the virulent paramilitaryOAS (Organisation Armée Secrète) in France, which employed terrorism to opposethe independence of Algeria, and was among the most notorious fascistorganizations in French history.' In New Orleans, Guy Banister and L.P. Davishad been OAS supporters.
The most notorious OAS-sponsored effort was the attemptedassassination of Charles de Gaulle in 1962. Banister operative Tommy Baumlerremarked that those who killed John F. Kennedy were those who wanted to killde Gaulle.' He was referring to the CIA,Clay Shaw, Banister, and Centro's parent organization, PERMINDEX (PermanentIndustrial Exhibition), based in Switzerland.
Having been accused of shady speculation' by the Swiss,PERMINDEX had created the Centro Mondiale Commerciale in Rome, ostensibly todevelop industry and trade in Italy. The Centro, however, was a tradeassociation that rarely if ever organized an exhibit; it facilitated nocommercial transactions.
CIA had, in fact, founded PERMINDEX to organize itspolitical policymaking. In Italy, this had meant opposition to a coalition ofsocialists and communists that would have resulted in a majority government. TheCIA preferred the Christian Democratic Party and so CIA Counter Intelligence chief James Angletonfiltered ten million dollars of CIA money to the Christian Democrats. In LesEchos newspaper, de Gaulle namedPERMINDEX as having been involved in the attempt on his life. The French, noless than the Italians, considered PERMINDEX a subsidiary of the CIA.' PaeseSera would call PERMINDEX a creatureof the CIA…set up as a cover for the transfer of CIA funds in Italy for illegalpolitical espionage activities.'
In the ranks ofPERMINDEX were actual Nazis and neo-Nazis, terrorists and Mafia operatives.Typical was Prince Guterez di Spadafora, a former Mussolini undersecretary,whose son had married the daughter of Hitler's finance minister, Hjalmar Schact,tried for war crimes at Nuremberg. The leadership of PERMINDEX included along-time asset of CIA Deputy Direct of Plans, Frank Wisner. His name wasFerenc Nagy, and he was the president of PERMINDEX. Nagy had been chairman ofthe Hungarian's People's Party' or Independent Party of Small Holders.' Briefly, in 1945, he had beenprime minister of Hungary. But it was Nagy's CIA history that catapulted him tothe leadership of PERMINDEX. Its general secretary, Bela Kovacs, was also a CIAasset. Kovacs had been arrested by the Soviet security police and charged withspying for a Western intelligence service.'
Nagy had been onFrank Wisner's list of the individuals with whom his office would havedealings in connection with our authorized activities' since September 22,1948. Wisner then had been Assistant Director of CIA as well as AssistantDirector for Policy Coordination.' Nagy had been a cleared contact of theInternational Organizations Division of the Agency,' among Wisner's mosttrusted Eastern European contacts.
Nagy's history withthe CIA dates from its beginnings and links to PERMINDEX with the Agency'sclandestine services. Confirming de Gaulle's thesis that PERMINDEX funded theOAS is that Nagy was a munificent contributer' to Jacques Soustelle, former professor at the École pratique des hautesétudes and former Algerian governor general. Soustelle became an OASsupporters, and his organization, Conseil national de la resistance, was allbut identical to OAS. In 1960, Soustelle met in Washington, D.C., with RichardBissell, then heading the CIA's clandestine services. A year later, Soustellewent into exile to avoid being arrested by de Gaulle's police. Two years afterthat he would be accused of colluding with OAS in the attempted assassinationof de Gaulle. S Soustelle had openly advocated over throwing de Gualle,' whilecondoning OAS violence.
In New Orleans,Delphine Roberts identified Nagy from his photograph as someone she had seen atGuy Banister's office.
Nagy'spartner in the leadership of PERMINDEX was Giorgio Mantello, aka George Mandel,who during World War II had traded in Jewishrefugees, profiting handsomely from theirmisery from his perch at the consulate of El Salvador in Bern. It was Mandel who had been the official founderof PERMINDEX. CIA kept silent, but the State Department learned that, asGeorges Mandel,' Mantello had been engaged in the wartime Jewish refugee racket' until he was expelled from Switzerland.
Although Centro Mondiale Commerciale refused to reveal theorigins of its vast income, the paper trail leads to a Miami bank, AstaldeVaduz, and to the CIA front Double-Chek.' CMC was connected as well to L.M.Bloomfield in Montreal, and to the Seligman banking family in Basel; Seligmanbanking in turn was allied with Sullivan and Cromwell, the law firm of CIADirector of Central Intelligence, Allen Dulles. My parents are very interestedin PERMINDEX,' Peter Seligman-Schurch wrote to Clay Shaw.

In Switzerland, PERMINDEX soon aroused widespread public suspicion.'Nagy and Seligman stonewalled the concerned American consulate in Bern afterthe Swiss complained they had insufficient confidence in the businessintegrity' of PERMINDEX.
In the spring of1958, Enrico Mantello, the vice president of PERMINDEX and brother of Giorgio,visited New Orleans. Touring the Trade Mart, he invited Clay Shaw to join theboard of directors as a means of defusing the criticism of PERMINDEX; itscritics by now included the State Department itself. Nagy appeared at the AmericanEmbassy in Rome to announce that he intended to strengthen US control inPERMINDEX by adding to its Board of Directors a Mr. Shaw, who is in charge ofthe New Orleans, Louisiana permanent exhibit.'
Nagy claimed that Shaw had from the outset great interestin the PERMINDEX project,' and Shaw did use the term delighted' in his cableof acceptance. He made plans to visit Italy, then canceled. despite Mantello'surgings. When he added his PERMINDEX directorship to Who's Who in the Southand the Southeast,' the Department of Commerce warned Shaw about this shadowyorganization.' But, as in all his CIA assignments, grateful for the career CIAmade of him, Clay Shaw honored his obligation.
Internal evidencethat PERMINDEX was a CIA front emerges in the fact that the CIA includedPERMINDEX materials in its asset Clay Shaw's files, three years before as wellas after the Kennedy assassination. One of these documents, dated March 16,1967, reveals that at the time of his arrest Clay Shaw was working withDomestic Operations Division of the CIA's clandestine services. This was only aseeming contradiction since the CIA's operational component in New Orleans hadresided under the umbrella of the Domestic Contact Division, at least sinceNovember 19, 1964, according to a CIA document on Garrison and the KennedyAssassination,' MEMORANDUM No.8.
Most of us considerthe CIA with abhorrence,' Shaw wrote in his Diary for the record, with hiscustomary dark laughter.
In 1962, CentroMondiale Commerciale was expelled from Italy, ostensibly for financialmalfeasance, and specious real estate dealings, but actually for subversion andillegal intelligence activity. Who was giving money to the CMC and what was itbeing used for?' Paesa Sera demanded. PERMINDEX relocated to a more compatiblepolitical venue, apartheid South Africa. Clay Shaw remained on its board,providing space at the Trade Mart for a permanent PERMINDEX display.
The editors of PaeseSera were astonished when their March 1967 publication date for the series onPERMINDEX coincided with the arrest of Clay Shaw. They had been working on theseries for months, former editor Giorgio Fanti says. Now they headlined Clay Shaw'sinvolvement in PERMINDEX, with a subhead revealing that he had been arrested byJim Garrison in New Orleans. Paese Sera noted that Shaw's name had firstappeared in connection with the machinations of the organization. He had goneto Rome during the time preceding the disbanding of the CMC,' Shaw admitted toa Paesa Sera interviewer. Paesa Sera wondered, too, about Shaw's leaving theUnited States two days after the assassination, remaining abroad for two yearswith only intermittent visits to America.

Shaw affected his customary disdain. He had agreed to be onthe PEMINDEX board, he claimed, because a young Italian came to see me in NewOrleans and told me about a world trade center that was being planned in Rome.'He also told the Paese Sera interviewer that he accepted the position inexchange for two New Orleans-Rome air tickets.' Even his closest friends wereappalled. There must have been blackmail they're very famous for that, theCIA,' Patricia Chandler says.
Jim Garrison had charged that the CIA had plotted theassassination of John F. Kennedy, for which they were aided and abetted in NewOrleans by their operative, Clay Shaw. Thirty-five years later, a series ofattacks on Paese Sera began to appear, accompanied by an excoriation of JimGarrison. Among the publications sanctioning these attacks was the CIA's ownweb site, Studies in Intelligence.' Journalist Max Holland repeated in aseries of magazine articles the erroneous thesis that the only reason thatPaese Sera believed that the CIA was behind PERMINDEX was that the newspaperwas the victim of KGB disinformation. Jim Garrison, therefore, had connectedthe CIA to the Kennedy assassination and to Shaw only owing to a KGB lie.
Rather, Garrison's attribution of the planning of theassassination to the CIA was based on his discovery of the CIA connections ofLee Harvey Oswald, and not those of Clay Shaw, an inconvenient detail Hollandomits. The truth is that Garrison had focused on the CIA in December 1966 and January 1967, well before the Marchpublication of the Paese Sera articles.


Finally, here is the letter from JFK he was concerned over nukes being created… he wanted thorough inspections andto be on the same page as the Israeli's… THIS is what sets off the chain reaction to kill JFK??

JFK's Concern Over Israel's Nuclear Bomb Program
JFK's Letter To Israeli PM Eshkol July 5, 1963
Dear Mr. Prime Minister (Eshkol),
It gives me great personal pleasureto extend congratulations as you assume your responsibilities as Prime Ministerof Israel. You have our friendship and best wishes in your new tasks. It is onone of these that I am writing you at this time.
You are aware, I am sure, of theexchange which I had with Prime Minister Ben-Gurion concerning American visits(ie: inspections -ed) to Israel's nuclear facility at Dimona. Most recently,the Prime Minister wrote to me on May 27. His words reflected a most intensepersonal consideration of a problem that I know is not easy for yourGovernment, as it is not for mine. We welcomed the former Prime Minister'sstrong reaffirmation that Dimona will be devoted exclusively to peacefulpurposes and the reaffirmation also of Israel's willingness to permit periodicvisits (ie: inspections -ed) to Dimona.
I regret having to add to yourburdens so soon after your assumption of office, but I feel the crucialimportance of this problem necessitates my taking up with you at this earlydate certain further considerations, arising out of Mr. Ben-Gurion's May 27letter, as to the nature and scheduling of such visits.
I am sure you will agree that thesevisits should be as nearly as possible in accord with international standards,thereby resolving all doubts as to the peaceful intent of the Dimona project.As I wrote Mr. Ben-Gurion, this Government's commitment to and support ofIsrael could be seriously jeopardized if it should be thought that we wereunable to obtain reliable information on a subject as vital to the peace as thequestion of Israel's effort in the nuclear field.
Therefore, I asked our scientiststo review the alternative schedules of visits we and you had proposed. IfIsrael's purposes are to be clear beyond reasonable doubt, I believe that theschedule which would best serve our common purposes would be a visit early thissummer, another visit in June 1964, and thereafter at intervals of six months.I am sure that such a schedule should not cause you any more difficulty thanthat which Mr. Ben-Gurion proposed in his May 27 letter. It would be essential,and I understand that Mr. Ben-Gurion's letter was in accord with this, that ourscientist have access to all areas of the Dimona site and to any related partof the complex, such as fuel fabrication facilities or plutonium separationplant, and that sufficient time to be allotted for a thorough examination.
Knowing that you fully appreciatethe truly vital significance of this matter to the future well-being of Israel,to the United States, and internationally, I am sure our carefully consideredrequest will have your most sympathetic attention.
Sincerely,
John F. Kennedy

[Albert Doyle]

It sounds to me as if you are sayingthat this "syndicate", this "shadow government" was not already in existence. That the Rothschild/Morgan/Rockefeller SHADOWGOVERNMENT that controlled economics and politics since before the turn of the20[SUP]th[/SUP] century with involvement in whatever you want to call the US UNDERWORLD AND MIC of the time. JEWISH& European bankers and their representatives had been doing this to thecountries of Europe for centuries… yetall of a sudden, you think that the CIA, the Mafia and the Bankers createdsomething NEW? In the mid 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century? Please Albert… it's as if you;ve dismissedhistory up to the creation of the NEW cabal… when in reality it was the SOSdifferent day, different name… if you have not read "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" - you might - it provides the background for this cabal and the influences on US and world politics... in 1907, when Morgan and the Rothschilds help create the Panic

You're fishing for excuses David. Switching the topic to a discussion of Deep Political history will not change the meaning or significance of the Swiss bank, Mediterranean cabal Piper discusses. You're filibustering, David, instead of answering the point that was made.

JFK and Israel's bomb may have played a part years later... but please stop trying to convince me or anyone else that this situation was the product the mid 20th century when it startyed in the late 1700's.

Which has what to do with what David? You've switched the topic and now you're answering to your own argument. Israel was formed in 1948. Your argument style strikes me as evasive and seeking to avoid the main points.

So the oil money about as far fromJews as it gets - could not have been the funding source for the JFK assassination…. And I did transpose Cuba & JFK, my bad,sorry. I meant that Echevarria's commentwas exclusively about Cuba, NOT JFK.

Again, what the hell are you talking about? You've pulled oil money out of thin air and are using it as a strawman. Your responses are bizarre because they represent a whole new conversation I don't recognize and things I never said. Furthermore I've answered three times now why there was no difference between funding for Cuba and the Mediterranean cabal, yet you ask the same question again now as if I never said anything. I'll explain it again. The causes of Cuba and Israel were intertwined through the Lansky/Rosenbaum/Israel Swiss bank network elaborated in Final Judgment. The system was rigged in such a way that the two causes were the same and any gains in overthrowing Castro would directly benefit this cabal. That's why the "new jew backers" were backing Echevarria. Do me a favor, please don't ask that question again.

I am not wiggling nor trying Albertand I really wish you would not make this personal… I am attempting to understand your positionas you've developed it from reading Piper and other research…

As is evident in what you write (sarcasm included)...




[/COLOR]

Really? The Vietnam war and ALL is militaryexpenditures PLUS the removal of the French/Corsican drug trade to place theUS/SE Asia drug trade squarely in control with its BILLIONS in profit goinginto the coffers of those who ran it were NOT the main benefactors… LBJ,becomes president NOT a benefactor, Hoover keeps power not a benefactor… Do you honestly believe that Israel and theUSA would not have continued on their path as allies with Israel receivingBILLIONS/TRILLIONS $$ had JFK not been assassinated? Have you read JFK and the UNSPEAKABLE? JFK threatened the entire way the WORLD ELITE didbusiness and how the WORLD ELITE controls its masses… I am sorry Albert, but to make this about Israel and Israel only is imo,very near-sighted.

The assassination didn't hurt and the US's policies and funding for Israel increased directly from the point of the assassination. Honestly David, you seem to be fishing for excuses against the obvious. Sure, the US probably would have done this anyway, but what you wrote doesn't disprove the incidence of how it very definitely happened in direct relation to JFK's assassination. You write a lot but in the end nothing changes and you haven't disproven Piper's points. It seems to me you are trying to spread blame to other persons or groups but the direct interests of Israel at the time don't change nor does their being satisfied by means of Kennedy's assassination.

Sorry, but I disagree with yourconclusion. The corruption of the USAdid not begin in 1947/48… Was theregreat and tremendous power behind the creation of the Israel state and the "jews"of the world in its support especially the USA… of course. I disagree that the POINT OF ORIGIN of Israel'spower is the JFK assassination…

You're arguing against irrefutable facts and statistics correctly shown in 'Final Judgment'. You attempt a philosophical diversion over when exactly America became corrupted, but there's no doubt the shift to American support of Israel occurred directly upon Kennedy's assassination. You're just in plain denial of how this present grotesque relationship occurred. I think you give yourself away by doing that. But I thank you for your stated "seeking to understand all this..."

Albert we get already that you area Piper disciple… that whatever he says is golden and the only truth worthdiscussing… Since you have read and memorized the book if you could expand on the following list as to what FACTS you'd like refuted… I will look into them.

Here we go. There's no reason to denigrate advocacy of Piper. Just discuss his straight facts. You've already seen enough. If you're interested I suggest you follow your stated want to understand and read the book.

Again Albert… are you really sayingthat this was the one and only funding source for this Underground Government that if it wasn't the Jews of the USA/Israel there was no threat to JFK?

You are creating strawmen David. The answer to this is to pursue Echevarria's comment and find out what exactly he meant by that? Frankly, your strawman campaign tells me you aren't honestly seeking that and are seeking ways around it. It is as it is David and I think Piper has validly shown there is evidence that Israel was the spark and straw that broke camel's back in the carrying-out of the assassination. This is evidenced by Echevarria's statement that, if you care to realize, not one single person has made any attempt whatsoever to answer directly - including yourself. In my experience of assassination research that, to me, is usually a good sign that there's something there. Even worse, conspiracy exposers are now using the tactics of Lone Nutters like Von Pein to avoid recognizing this. You're definitely trying to put words in my mouth David. I think the reason you're doing that is what I'm getting at.

You seem to be IGNORING every otherplayer in the game and are fixated on it being Piper's way or no way…. While YOU may be there, I and many others,are not…
So I will go back to the question… why do you believe that Echevarria's commenthad to do ONLY with the JFK assassination and not the Cuban situation instead given the timing and the actual weapons he was dealing with?

That's just besides the point colorful wording. It means nothing. Meanwhile although I have answered that canard you keep repeating three times now, you ignore it and feel a need to force it again. I'm sure I've explained it clearly enough that any person of average intelligence could understand it, so I believe I'm correct in assuming you prefer not to understand it, even though you claim to be seeking understanding. You are obviously trying to force a contrived interpretation no matter what you are shown. I'm sorry to put it this way but the word "dishonest" flashes into my mind at this point. 1) I have explained it three times now and you've ignored it three times. 2) It is more than clear that the operative point here is what exactly Homer Echevarria meant by his comment? It seems to me that you are desperate to force the backing to only the Cuban cause and supplying them with weapons, but Echevarria's statement itself shows that this action was dependent on getting rid of Kennedy. And, again, as Piper shows, there really was no difference between the Cuban action and the interconnected causes of all those interests, especially Israel. The clear question here, that you should be asking, is why would any "jews" be so interested in backing the Cuban cause? The answer is because they were all operating under one aegis at that point. Piper's Mediterranean cabal was that aegis. Ben Gurion's frustration was the deciding factor of Israel coming in to solidarity with that cause.


Your overload of information on Permindex is just anti-semite-baiting filibuster in my opinion.


Do me a favor. If you respond spare me the creative colors and fonts.



.

[Dawn Meredith]

David bless your heart for trying but you are dealing with two people who ....will just not look at the facts. It's the Joos did it for everything. I can't even read their posts. It got very old for me a long time ago. Back when this was going on at Ef years ago...Some people are like a dog with a bone and just won't let go. Like the sanke oil salesman and his doorway man stuff that is now all over several JFK- related pages on facebook. People with an agenda are ones I try to avoid. And I will say it again: I am no fan of Israel.

Dawn

[Albert Doyle]

David bless your heart for trying but you are dealing with two people who ....will just not look at the facts. It's the Joos did it for everything. I can't even read their posts. It got very old for me a long time ago. Back when this was going on at Ef years ago...Some people are like a dog with a bone and just won't let go. Like the sanke oil salesman and his doorway man stuff that is now all over several JFK- related pages on facebook. People with an agenda are ones I try to avoid. And I will say it again: I am no fan of Israel.

Dawn

Case in point.



I'm sorry, that's just not intellectually submittable for the information at hand here. I'm not sure you realize you just made a very strong argument for Piper. This stuff can't be deflected with accusations of a certain agenda. It's too close to the credible facts.