Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[Charles Drago]

David,

Yours is the voice of reason in your four-way conversation with Mark and "Albert."

[Phil Dragoo]

Larry, at 371 you ask an interesting question: did Ruby say he did it to show the world Jews have guts.

The news clipping at http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg ...tem 13.pdf says Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels reported Ruby said this:


Ruby, told law officers he
killed Oswald because he
couldn't stand the thought that
the widow, Jacqueline Kennedy
would have to undergo
the ordeal of going back to
Dallas to testify at Oswald's
trial.

He said he felt great compassion
for Caroline Kennedy,
the President's daughter who
was 6 at the time of the assassination.
He said he had
been driven into a state of
insanity over the whole affair.

Then, pressed for the precise
reason he killed Oswald,
Ruby said he guessed it was
to show the world that Jews
had guts.


Is any of that dog's supper true? What of the phone calls Ruby made to associates of Marcello, Hoffa, Giancana, and other top members of organized crime?

Was the Western Union stop not a pretext to be in position to see the signal from the police station to proceed through the side door--not down the ramp.

The relief Ruby expressed upon the news Oswald was dead was stark and plain.

This illustrative paragraph from Jim DiEugenio's article on Ruby Dunkel-style:


Let me conclude with another key event this show leaves out. It indicates Ruby's mindset at the time, something the show also tries to confuse. Detective Don Archer was with Ruby after he was in custody after the murder. Ruby was very nervous: "He was sweating profusely. I could hear his heart beating. He asked for one of my cigarettes. I gave him a cigarette. Finally ... the head of the Secret Service came up-and he told me that Oswald had died. This should have shocked Ruby because it would mean the death penalty ... .Instead of being shocked, he became calm, he quit sweating, his heart slowed down. I asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and he advised me he didn't smoke. I was just astonished ... I would say his life had depended on him getting Oswald." (Marrs, pgs. 423-424)

http://www.ctka.net/2009/ruby_mack_2.html
JFK: The Ruby Connection, Gary Mack's Follies Continued
Part Two
By James DiEugenio


Ruby the Chicago transplant, the go-to guy for drugs in Dallas, the do-it-yourself bouncer with fifteen beatings and the occasional customer thrown down the stairs, the calls cagily made to goodfellas, who admitted his lawyer came up with the "did it for Jackie" schtick, who had his mind drycleaned by Joly West and DeLoach's cousin, was really, really just trying to show the world that Jews have guts.

Those guts turned cancerous and fatal when he got a new trial.

Sure, Jack Ruby patriot; Jack Ruby NKVD in Tel Aviv--maybe better Jack Ruby like John Rosselli said to Jack Anderson.

And that follows a Jack Ruby sent from Chicago, carrying out a contract.

Not personal, business.

[Mark Stapleton]

Do you believe LBJ and McNamarra had influence on the Financial Aid to Israel in Fiscal 1964?
Do you understand that during JFK's tenure spending INCREASES... and then DROPS AFTER HE IS KILLED....

Do you SEE that until JFK there was virtually NO MILITARY ASSISTANCE?
Do you even bother to READ the actual correspondance of the times...

As I already pointed out to you in post #360, US aid to Israel, particularly miltary aid, does not drop during LBJ's tenure. Military aid to Israel increases by a factor of five during LBJ's tenure.

Fiscal year 1964 was a Kennedy fiscal year. How can it be an LBJ fiscal year when LBJ wasn't even President when FY 1964 began on October 1, 1963? All the planning and Congressional appropriations for FY 1964 were overseen by Kennedy during 12 months preceeding October 1, 1963. That's the last time I'm going to tell you this. It doesn't matter that Kennedy was killed on 22 November 1963--the first FY budget LBJ was responsible for was FY 1965--not FY 1964. The Zionist cabal behind LBJ knew he would thrash Goldwater in 1964. They knew he would show his gratitude in the four years which followed--and as we all know, he did.

And yes, I am aware that the first military hardware sale to Israel was made by Kennedy. This was for Hawk antitank missiles, a defensive weapon. Kennedy, like Eisenhower and Truman before him, guaranteed the territorial integrity of Israel. Kennedy wasn't arming Israel to become the regional superpower. Kennedy actually wanted to guarantee the territorial integrity of all Middle Eastern states--which irked Israel.

LBJ's sale of F4 Phantom jets to Israel, and the introduction of the QME doctrine, ensured Israel henceforth had a military edge over its neighbours. As you correctly point out, that military assistance has increased greatly since then. It has turned into an American obsession.

But as I correctly point out, it all began with LBJ.

[Mark Stapleton]

Sorry Mark,


I somewhat interpolated Hadden's statement. What he actually said to Amit was get the arabs to attack a US ship. Obviously Mossad felt that it was better to do the job yourself if you wanted it done right and then ordered the unmarked Israeli aircraft attack on the Liberty. Obviously CIA and Israel were operating under the premise that if it was so easy to kill JFK in Dealey Plaza and get away with it a little false flag operation involving the sinking of a US ship (as recommended by Hadden) would not be too difficult:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/magazi...wanted=all

Thanks for that Albert.

[Mark Stapleton]

You now believe that LBJ and McNamarra had NO INFLUENCE on what went to Israel and Why?

What convoluted counter argument are you trying to make here?

Albert's right. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall.

[Charles Drago]

Mark and "Albert" -- what a threesome!

[Albert Doyle]

Thanks for that Albert.

I've seen a second interview with Amit where he elaborates that Hadden said that the political atmosphere in America wasn't strong enough for direct support of Israel but if an American ship was attacked that would be good enough to sway Americans to back Israel on a military basis.

[Albert Doyle]

Ruby the Chicago transplant, the go-to guy for drugs in Dallas, the do-it-yourself bouncer with fifteen beatings and the occasional customer thrown down the stairs, the calls cagily made to goodfellas, who admitted his lawyer came up with the "did it for Jackie" schtick, who had his mind drycleaned by Joly West and DeLoach's cousin, was really, really just trying to show the world that Jews have guts.

So if I'm reading this right, we've established that the did it for Jackie was just a legal ruse. So we're right back to why Ruby mentioned his jewishness? It was his words not mine. (I'm not trying to endorse any Stormfront approach. I'm just making a point)

If we analyze Ruby he was assassination figure known to try to speak the truth about what really happened.

[David Josephs]

You now believe that LBJ and McNamarra had NO INFLUENCE on what went to Israel and Why?

What convoluted counter argument are you trying to make here?

Albert's right. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall.

Mark... this is simple...

Show us the budget for aid to israel as approved for 1964.... from 1963.
Show us that the incoming administration has no affect on this budget... NOTHING was changed, no decisions were changed...

Seems to me the escalation of war in Vietnam MAY have caused the 64 budget to be amended a bit... ya think?

Military aid to Israel increases by a factor of five during LBJ's tenure

Excellent point Mark... let's take the FIRST POTUS to offer ANYTHING MILITARILY to Israel and compare it to the buildup to the 6 day war....
You really got me there...

Let's forget the actual correspondance between LBJ and Eshkol, that I posted and you dismissed, which stated exactly the same position about the middle east and peace, as JFK... offensive/nuclear weapons are a threat to the balance of power in the middle east...

That I return your feeble attempts at passing shots or lobs is how I understand a brick wall functions...
Give back exactly or more than is sent out....

or are you just used to people agreeing with you no matter what you post?

[Albert Doyle]

Your obsession with ME as opposed to proving your case is pathetic and sad....

Piper is letting you down, not me "Albert"... the reality of history is letting you down. I just happen to be the messenger.... which is why you and your Ad hom sidekick need to spend all your time attacking me rather than defending you position....and when your ad hom buddy asks for a source... you can't even provide it to HIM.

Thank you for your overly-long obscene reversal which is basically saying you can't answer the point that was made clearly enough.

And all this has WHAT to do with BG supposedly being harrassed into pushing for and assisting in the assassiantion of JFK over Dimona?

You post every possible piece of data you can find EXCEPT that which we are talking about... ??

The answer to that was fairly obvious from what was already written. It's pretty obvious that BOTH the Lansky/Rosenbaum/Swiss bank network AND Dimona were used as leverage. It's not difficult to figure out. So far you've managed to categorically avoid that dirty money network in your responses. You can't do that and still have credibility in any discussion of either Piper or the assassination.

Your responses are very weak, David, vs what is actually being discussed. Once again, we have a strong reply from you that shows no indication of any attempt whatsoever of answering the point. Bobby Kennedy was going after the mob. So you had two pinchers that were going right at the jugular of Israel's and CIA's most important interests in the Kennedy brothers. The Kennedy brothers weren't stupid. They knew where to target Eisenhower's warned-against Military Industrial Complex. That isn't difficult to understand. So why are you having such trouble giving a straight answer? You might wish my entries were about you David, but any objective person would see they were about the points you keep dodging.

Do you believe LBJ and McNamarra had influence on the Financial Aid to Israel in Fiscal 1964?
Do you understand that during JFK's tenure spending INCREASES... and then DROPS AFTER HE IS KILLED....

Once again, you're not answering the point David. Kennedy was battling the Military Industrial Complex that was seeking new venues like Israel. Kennedy was restricting nuclear weapons for Israel while Angleton was sneaking nuclear materials to Israel behind his back. Your input is dishonest because it is exactly like those who try to say the real record shows Kennedy was the first person to get involved in VietNam and escalate. You are doing the Chomsky VietNam routine with Israel. Your input is dishonest on its face because it totally ignores the qualifying information of Kennedy's attempts to control Israeli weaponization. Your context for the Hawk missiles is repeatedly dishonest because it repeatedly ignores that the Hawk missiles were sold to Israel to placate them over the nuclear restriction. Yet you turn around and say they are evidence of Kennedy initiating that arms build-up. You live a bizarre reality-disconnected world because even after Mark shows you you have incorrectly cited figures that rightly back Piper you ignore this and re-enter them again as if you had never been shown the evidence that proves you to be totally wrong. That's pretty arrogant, yet it has no affect on your down-talking tone. Kennedy's expenditures on Israel increased the same way they did on VietNam and in the exact same context. That context was correctly shown in the widely-praised JFK And The Unspeakable. You can't get away with either mis-citing numbers or ignoring their true context as shown in Piper like you try to do. David, any chance on a direct answer as to your total wrongness on the '64 funding?

If LBJ was the great Zionist hope for Israel, why does it take until 1966 to show any significant increases and then are you also going to blame JFK for the drop form $90 Million to $7M in 1967?
In 1968, 50% of that total is Food 4 Peace Loans....

If accurate, this can only be entered in relation to the fungibility created by the covert funds coming through Rosenbaum's network. David, what's your honest answer as to how the Liberty incident reflects on this?

Once again with you two,... you state things yet they are ALWAYS WRONG, and they ALWAYS point in the opposite direction of your conclusions....

Not working David. You were totally wrong on the '64 funding figures and their interpretation. Nor did you answer the points in my last post.

How you or anyone can read my posts and see them as PRO-Israel in this fight is not reading very carefully.
If ANYTHING, the ongoing stance of Israel towards the USA made their own bed to sleep in.... and we STILL did not make any "DEMANDS" of Israel, other than honesty.

So you're just going to ignore the world-shifting detente Kennedy was attempting, as shown in The Unspeakable, and how it would have affected Israel? You're saying meek Jack offered humble protests to "lying" Israel and that was that? Not very honest. Douglass must have gotten it all wrong. You better contact him and correct him.

David what is your direct and honest answer to how the Tibor Rosenbaum covert funding affected the fungibility of Israel repaying its loans from the US? Do you honestly have a right to quote Jewish Virtual Library figures as some kind of magic fairyland alternate reality while ignoring this critical relevant funding source as shown in Piper? Or how it affected both the funding and political motivations being discussed here? The Kennedy's were going after both this military build-up and the mob funding sources behind it. Not only do you ignore this critically-relevant funding sector that is the main point of Piper's book but you also ignore the relevant context behind the motivations it inspired. Funny how you, like Joan Peters, skim your columns in order to make those relevant figures disappear. But you didn't have to because the Jewish Virtual Library already did that for you. Trust them!

In retrospect I'm awed by your harsh approach towards Israel!