Silencers, Sniper Rifles and the CIA

[Bob Prudhomme]

Yes, I agree with that one David. That one is amazingly quiet. Interesting that its based upon the Enfield.



BTW, when I first proposed this idea to Gary Mack back when the movie JFK came out, he immediately responded with words to the effect that, then you are talking about a handgun!

Can you believe that? In 1992, Gary Mack had never heard of the work of Mitch Werbell.

Who I am pretty sure diagrammed that chart on p. 15 that Carol calls Figure 4. Boy is that fascinating.

Talk about professionals.

Gary Mack would have referred to the de Lisle Carbine as a handgun for the simple fact this weapon fired .45 ACP pistol ammunition at subsonic velocities (830 fps muzzle velocity) making it, essentially, a handgun with a long barrel and stock.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Carol Hewett makes reference to the shell casing found on the roof of the Dal-Tex Building, dubbing it the "Dal-Tex Specimen". She further describes it in this manner, "What was unique about this case was the crimped edges along the neck suggesting that either the shell had been handloaded or had been used in conjunction with a sabot."

I have handloaded many rifle cartridges, and was unaware of a special crimping used in handloading or for factory loaded or handloaded sabots. In fact, I have never crimped the neck of the cartridges I handloaded, and do not know anyone who ever has. Unless crimps are of the indented type, such as seen on the 6.5mm Carcano casing, they are difficult to see on a fired cartridge, as the brass stretches outwards to fill the chamber under the pressure of hot gases.

Perhaps someone could educate me on just what Ms. Hewett was referring to.

[Scott Kaiser]

Carol Hewett makes reference to the shell casing found on the roof of the Dal-Tex Building, dubbing it the "Dal-Tex Specimen". She further describes it in this manner, "What was unique about this case was the crimped edges along the neck suggesting that either the shell had been handloaded or had been used in conjunction with a sabot."

I have handloaded many rifle cartridges, and was unaware of a special crimping used in handloading or for factory loaded or handloaded sabots. In fact, I have never crimped the neck of the cartridges I handloaded, and do not know anyone who ever has. Unless crimps are of the indented type, such as seen on the 6.5mm Carcano casing, they are difficult to see on a fired cartridge, as the brass stretches outwards ti fill the chamber under the pressure of hot gases.

Perhaps someone could educate me on just what Ms. Hewett was referring to.

Could it be that someone bit the bullet before firing it, and that casing ended up on the roof somehow?

[Bob Prudhomme]

Carol Hewett makes reference to the shell casing found on the roof of the Dal-Tex Building, dubbing it the "Dal-Tex Specimen". She further describes it in this manner, "What was unique about this case was the crimped edges along the neck suggesting that either the shell had been handloaded or had been used in conjunction with a sabot."

I have handloaded many rifle cartridges, and was unaware of a special crimping used in handloading or for factory loaded or handloaded sabots. In fact, I have never crimped the neck of the cartridges I handloaded, and do not know anyone who ever has. Unless crimps are of the indented type, such as seen on the 6.5mm Carcano casing, they are difficult to see on a fired cartridge, as the brass stretches outwards ti fill the chamber under the pressure of hot gases.

Perhaps someone could educate me on just what Ms. Hewett was referring to.

Could it be that someone bit the bullet before firing it, and that casing ended up on the roof somehow?

I fail to see the relevance of your remark.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Yes, I agree with that one David. That one is amazingly quiet. Interesting that its based upon the Enfield.



BTW, when I first proposed this idea to Gary Mack back when the movie JFK came out, he immediately responded with words to the effect that, then you are talking about a handgun!

Can you believe that? In 1992, Gary Mack had never heard of the work of Mitch Werbell.

Who I am pretty sure diagrammed that chart on p. 15 that Carol calls Figure 4. Boy is that fascinating.

Talk about professionals.

Gary Mack would have referred to the de Lisle Carbine as a handgun for the simple fact this weapon fired .45 ACP pistol ammunition at subsonic velocities (830 fps muzzle velocity) making it, essentially, a handgun with a long barrel and stock.

That wasn't the context of the conversation Bob. It was the use of silencers in general. And Gary jumped to the conclusion that it would have to be a handgun.

Which as Carol shows is not the case.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Yes, I agree with that one David. That one is amazingly quiet. Interesting that its based upon the Enfield.



BTW, when I first proposed this idea to Gary Mack back when the movie JFK came out, he immediately responded with words to the effect that, then you are talking about a handgun!

Can you believe that? In 1992, Gary Mack had never heard of the work of Mitch Werbell.

Who I am pretty sure diagrammed that chart on p. 15 that Carol calls Figure 4. Boy is that fascinating.

Talk about professionals.

Gary Mack would have referred to the de Lisle Carbine as a handgun for the simple fact this weapon fired .45 ACP pistol ammunition at subsonic velocities (830 fps muzzle velocity) making it, essentially, a handgun with a long barrel and stock.

That wasn't the context of the conversation Bob. It was the use of silencers in general. And Gary jumped to the conclusion that it would have to be a handgun.

Which as Carol shows is not the case.

At 830 fps muzzle velocity, it might as well be a handgun.

[Drew Phipps]

Long time, Bob! (WB) Do you have a drawing or picture of what a sabot-loaded round looks like inside the cartridge? What I think that article suggests is that the cartridge is somehow modified to use a smaller caliber bullet than designed, as a load. (I think the idea is that the shooter could thereby disguise the type of gun used.) You're the guy with the experience in this field. Would you explain to us why that can, or can't, be the case?

[Bob Prudhomme]

Long time, Bob! (WB) Do you have a drawing or picture of what a sabot-loaded round looks like inside the cartridge? What I think that article suggests is that the cartridge is somehow modified to use a smaller caliber bullet than designed, as a load. (I think the idea is that the shooter could thereby disguise the type of gun used.) You're the guy with the experience in this field. Would you explain to us why that can, or can't, be the case?

The question I always ask proponents of the sabot loaded cartridge theory is, what would be the purpose of loading a fired slug from a 6.5mm Carcano rifle into a cartridge made for a larger calibre rifle? The M91/38 short rifle (Oswald's alleged rifle) has a muzzle velocity of 2200 feet per second (fps) and, when combined with a 162 grain slug, the result is a weapon more than capable of killing people at the -100 yard range of all of the shots in Dealey Plaza. If the rifle that did the actual killing was a 6.5mm Carcano but, instead of being an M91/38 short rifle, it was an M91/41 long rifle, that muzzle velocity would increase to 2400 fps. In comparison, .308 calibre bullets regularly have muzzle velocities in the range of 2800 fps, and are considered more than adequate for shooting deer out to 200 yards and beyond.

Carol Hewett stated in her article that there was something about the spent cartridge found on the roof of the Dal-Tex Building that indicated it had been handloaded or loaded with a sabot. I would really like to know what it was about that cartridge that gave this impression.









Not quite sure how the slug remains centred in this shotgun shell. Also, it would be necessary for the shotgun owner to possess a second barrel for his shotgun that had rifling grooves on its interior, in order to impart spin to this slug to stabilize it.

Just imagine the fun the Bubbas would have, firing .50 calibre Browning machine gun tracer slugs from their duck hunting guns.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Yes, I agree with that one David. That one is amazingly quiet. Interesting that its based upon the Enfield.



BTW, when I first proposed this idea to Gary Mack back when the movie JFK came out, he immediately responded with words to the effect that, then you are talking about a handgun!

Can you believe that? In 1992, Gary Mack had never heard of the work of Mitch Werbell.

Who I am pretty sure diagrammed that chart on p. 15 that Carol calls Figure 4. Boy is that fascinating.

Talk about professionals.

Gary Mack would have referred to the de Lisle Carbine as a handgun for the simple fact this weapon fired .45 ACP pistol ammunition at subsonic velocities (830 fps muzzle velocity) making it, essentially, a handgun with a long barrel and stock.

That wasn't the context of the conversation Bob. It was the use of silencers in general. And Gary jumped to the conclusion that it would have to be a handgun.

Which as Carol shows is not the case.

At 830 fps muzzle velocity, it might as well be a handgun.

Bob, you are missing the point.

I never mentioned the Lisle Carbine in my discussion with Gary.

We were talking about silencers in general. Gary assumed you could only use a silencer with a handgun.

I knew you could use them with rifles since I had read about Werbell's work.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Gary Mack would have referred to the de Lisle Carbine as a handgun for the simple fact this weapon fired .45 ACP pistol ammunition at subsonic velocities (830 fps muzzle velocity) making it, essentially, a handgun with a long barrel and stock.

That wasn't the context of the conversation Bob. It was the use of silencers in general. And Gary jumped to the conclusion that it would have to be a handgun.

Which as Carol shows is not the case.

At 830 fps muzzle velocity, it might as well be a handgun.

Bob, you are missing the point.

I never mentioned the Lisle Carbine in my discussion with Gary.

We were talking about silencers in general. Gary assumed you could only use a silencer with a handgun.

I knew you could use them with rifles since I had read about Werbell's work.

I understand what you are getting at, Jim. I just wanted to point out that, in order to truly silence a weapon, it is necessary to sacrifice the flat trajectory of a supersonic weapon, such as a rifle, and settle for the inaccuracy of a subsonic pistol round, such as was fired from the de Lisle carbine. If Werbell was producing 100% silenced weapons, he would have been facing the same problem.

IMHO, I believe silenced weapons were used in the assassination to make it impossible to accurately locate the source of some of the shots. The Altgens 6 photo below is, I believe, proof of the use of at least one suppressed rifle.



Note that the attention of the four standing SS agents is drawn to the right side of the follow up car. I believe a bullet has just passed the heads of the agents on the right side of the car, travelling on its way from the mid-floors of the Dal-Tex Building on its way to JFK's back. If this shot were suppressed, there would be no sound made by the muzzle blast, but the bullet itself would be making a sharp crack as it broke the sound barrier. How audible would it be? Perhaps audible enough to make the SS agents look around, but not be noticed by the crowd on the sidewalk.