Why the second floor lunch room encounter could not have happened

[Albert Doyle]

If you want to see a perfect example of what is currently wrong with the JFK research world, Andrej Stancak just posted in the Education Prayer Man thread what can only be called a classic example of ROKC pseudo-analysis where the real evidence is turned inside out, everything is stood on its head, and everything is considered except the real evidence. Andrej is using classic ROKC reasoning to conclude the lunchroom encounter didn't happen in order to bolster the already-debunked Murphy theory. He issues two presumptive lines of reasoning that both try to prove why Oswald couldn't have been seen by Baker in the lunchroom. Only he forgets to mention Carolyn Arnold and her witnessing that is the only real evidence involved with the issue. Classic of ROKC deception, Andrej considers every scenario except the real one. The one where Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald sitting in the lunchroom eating lunch. Stancak does this deliberately in order to deceive the readers for Bart Kamp and ROKC. The reason Stancak deliberately omits this is because he is aware that he is intentionally omitting the 3rd and most likely scenario, that is, that Oswald was in the lunchroom the whole time and walked over to the vestibule window possibly to see who was running down the stairs (Adams & Styles?). Stancak is deliberately trying to avoid the obvious, that is, that Oswald came from the lunchroom side and therefore that perfectly explains Baker's sighting. Stancak is doing this deliberately because he knows that the lunchroom encounter under this scenario precludes the possibility of Prayer Man being Oswald. So Stancak, like ROKC, is deliberately misleading the readers in order to spin things in the direction of his bogus Murphy theories. And to think Lancer is so reckless that it not only doesn't notice this but actually awards ROKC for it really strains credulity. The research community is remiss for not pointing out the obvious in Stancak's dishonest offerings or what they are obviously consciously avoiding.

[Albert Doyle]

ROKC fails to see the obvious. Either Oswald was sitting at the lunchroom table when Baker saw him or he was standing by the Coke machine. Realizing this exonerated their patsy it then changed to Oswald was moving away from the vestibule window. ROKC fails to see the obvious. The authorities who were framing Oswald needed to remove the evidence that showed he was in the lunchroom the whole time. So they both gave Baker a reason for pursuing Oswald and made it look like he had just descended from the 6th floor by saying Oswald was walking away from the vestibule window.


Or Oswald really was looking guilty and flinched away from the window when he saw Baker because Oswald was a CIA operative and Baker's police smarts immediately saw the body language of someone who had something to hide. In this case the Coke machine and sitting at the table were temporary exonerating witnessings in case they had to bail out a person who they knew was a CIA op.


This is all perfectly reasonable. Oswald could have gone to the vestibule window when Baker & Truly shouted for the elevators. Or Styles & Adams clattered down the stairs.

[Albert Doyle]

Because researchers who should know better have favored ROKC, Andrej Stancak is now on the Education Forum saying that those who believe in the lunchroom encounter are endorsing a "Lone Nutter" position. He is saying that the only option involved with the lunchroom encounter is Oswald running down from the 6th floor or up from the 1st floor. Bullshit. Stancak deliberately ignores the fact that the known witnessing places Oswald in the lunchroom according to Carolyn Arnold's witnessing and that is almost certainly where Oswald was. The Education Forum completely ignores that the Oswald Mrs Reid saw was dressed differently than the shirted Oswald because there were two Oswald's in the Depository ala Roger Craig. Because mainstream researchers are so desperate to have Murphy be correct they have tolerated the garbage arguments of ROKCer's like Stancak and allowed them to go unchallenged. This is very carefully controlled by corrupted moderators who censor who is allowed to say what in order to guide the conversation. This assassination community dares call itself credible while not mentioning Stancak is deliberately denying the obvious option of Oswald being in the lunchroom the whole time by his own logic. Stancak has an annoying tendency to not realize he is making your argument for you in his own logic but using it for the wrong conclusion. It's incredible that no one points out to Stancak that he is making a case, by his own reasoning, that the only real viable option is Oswald was in the lunchroom the whole time. No one points this out to Stancak because they don't want to admit it refutes Murphy.


Andrej - The reason no one saw the swinging automatic door closing is because Oswald was in the lunchroom the whole time and never went through it (duh). Stancak gets away with murder. Oswald being in the lunchroom is not a Lone Nutter claim. It actually exonerates him. Those who sign-on to ROKC's Cinque-like claims are guilty of muddying the waters on a Deep Political basis. The real facts are pointing towards Oswald being in the lunchroom.



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[Albert Doyle]

The pro-Murphy posters are trying to say Ochus Campbell saw Oswald in the foyer storage room about 1 and a half minutes after the shooting. It is the definition of community dysfunction that no one points out to them that for that to be true would require Baker holding a gun on Oswald in front of the many many people who entered the foyer and no one saw it. This logical point that should refute the suggestion that the encounter happened in the foyer has no effect on the Murphy-ites who are allowed to ignore the impossibility of their theory, are given preference with an obviously bogus theory, and have criminal moderators banning those who confront the Murphy cultists on these obviously bogus Cinque-like claims.


The only reason the Murphy-ites are claiming Baker delayed and the encounter happened in the foyer is because they know their Prayer Man claim doesn't work if you honor the obvious evidence. Essentially what is being tolerated is analogous to a take over of the definition of the assassination by Fetzer. To tolerate these Murphy-ites is the equivalent of Fetzer prevailing.


All for a theorist (Murphy) who has now disappeared from the internet.


I was just in Dealey Plaza last September. There's no way Campbell took 90 seconds to go to the Knoll and back. The trip would take at least 3 minutes minimum.


Their own witness Ochus Campbell said he saw Truly and Baker enter the building, which had to be before Campbell's trip to the Knoll. Both Kamp and Stancak ignore it and its truthful meaning.



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[LR Trotter]

​Over time, I have witnessed incidents, as they occurred, but retained in memory. However, many of said incidents end up on film/video, and some, but not all, appear slightly different as pictured from the occurrence memory. For that reason, it would appear that some remembered incidents contain a degree of estimation, especially regarding timing observations. But, a degree of estimation does not make an observer a liar, only normal.

[Albert Doyle]

The Murphy mob are attacking Bill Miller for the intolerable suggestion that Oswald had a Coke in his hand in the lunchroom. If you read the testimony the Coke claim had several sources, from the Hosty/Bookhout FBI report, the Fritz Notes, and Mrs Reid. It is not a deal-breaker as far as credibility to claim Oswald had a Coke in his hand. He probably did claim this.


If you look at how the Murphy mob is using this attack on Miller they are trying to destroy him and his entire offerings through this one claim. The whole time the claim itself is probably true. It is obvious that they reason they do this is because of their awareness of how dangerous the Coke claim is to their Murphy theory. It shows corroborating evidence for Oswald being in the lunchroom (or Domino Room) during the shooting and also being there for the Baker confrontation.


Meanwhile the hyper demanding for proof on this somewhat irrelevant evidence is being used to avoid Miller's good evidence that the Murphy mob is obviously using the Coke claim to avoid addressing. Another thing Kamp conspicuously avoids is answering why the authorities would insert a claim into testimony that would only help exonerate Oswald? If Oswald were buying and drinking a Coke he would 1) Have a motive and reasonable explanation for being in the lunchroom. 2) The time it would have taken to purchase the Coke would push him past the point of possibility for the Warren Commission timeline of running down from the 6th floor. If the authorities had fabricated and inserted the Coke claim they would be very unlikely to add something that would only help refute their official story. Also, we have evidence that the authorities tried to get rid of the Coke claim after they realized it conflicted with their timeline. We have Baker crossing out and initialing the correction on his affidavit where he crosses out "drinking a Coke" with his pen. So technically we have Kamp and the Murphy mob joining those doing the cover up in their removal of the Coke evidence.


Kamp ignores all this because his approach involves aggressive demands for strict evidence while ignoring all I've written above. Is Miller really the one who has committed the research offense here?

[Albert Doyle]

Bill Miller:

You have referenced me as another Albert Doyle who is a lunatic Holocaust denier.

I guess this is the reason why Bill Miller is avoiding my height analysis and Davidson evidence that Prayer Man can't be Oswald. Bart Kamp and the others won't correct Miller because this is the dirty way that they defend the Murphy theory. Any kind of dirty dishonest move is OK as long as it defends the Murphy theory and no good argument is acceptable, especially when it can be deflected with ROKC slanderous crap like the above. I can assure you that what Miller is doing there is the result of granny-like PM's that ROKC is perpetrating in order to get around the fact they can't answer my evidence. Watch what happens. No one will correct Miller and the damage it does will be enforced. The correct evidence will be ignored and Miller's weak wimpy opposition of Kamp will be taken as the final word on the matter.


This is why Miller is not a credible defender of our side and why Gordon forces him as the only spokesperson through censorship. Libelous slander of a person who can't defend himself is the modus operandi these people use. You can be sure the same people who refused to answer the evidence are the ones who went behind the scene and planted that little defamation bomb that was designed to do exactly what it is being used for. It has effectively created the excuse for not answering our evidence and ignoring its source.


I've never had a direct discussion with Bill Miller because James Gordon blocked me from posting on the site and refused to explain why. The Murphy mob are dishonest cowards because they won't do the right thing and ask Bill Miller or Bart Kamp to answer my evidence that I posted in the same thread. No one will point out to those two they haven't answered "Brian Doyle's" posts.


This is Gordon's playing field. He says he moderates for content. You then offer the best content on the board that no one can answer, and suddenly you find yourself unable to post with Gordon refusing to explain why. Then two inferior posters argue inferior points and take the conversation into an unending quagmire of endless parsing. One of those posters disappeared when you showed up and ran. He then realizes you're gone so it is safe for him to re-appear and criticize you when you can't answer. Then you find the weak opposition Bill Miller referring to you as a "Holocaust Denier" and therefore dismissing you in one kill shot. That's funny, I don't remember entering anything about the Holocaust in my issue-ending arguments on Prayer Man. You can judge the character of the Assassination research community that they would allow that kind of dirty move and not say anything. They are obviously not interested in the evidence they call for and Gordon is a crook.


Bill Miller is stupid. He doesn't realize I have almost single-handedly proven Prayer Man can't be Oswald and done so by means of the posts I have made containing my height analysis and Davidson enhancement. He has failed to defeat Kamp because he has failed to exert my evidence. It's pretty stupid to cause the failure of your own attempt like Miller does because you believe the poster is a Holocaust denier (which isn't true and is quite libelous). This is how the dirty ROKC side forces its false arguments through. And their crook protector Gordon aids them.


They're cowards and they won't ask Miller to answer Brian Doyle's posts in that same thread because their dirty move has worked and allowed them to dodge the evidence. This attack will be used by Kamp to avoid accounting for how Campbell's reference shows Truly and Baker went in to the Depository as seen on the Dunkel Film.

[Albert Doyle]

Bart Kamp wrote:

He is lambasting almost everyone (yup you included Miller) even admins about what is happening here. His posting privileges are revoked and he can only lurk and PM here.

Other than that Doyle just rambles on, posts drivel declared gospel and so on. He is the court jester of the JFK Assassination research community.

Mr Kamp is a liar and a coward. He makes it sound like my posting privileges have been revoked on the Education Forum because of "lambasting". That isn't at all true and anyone can read my last posts. I was quite civil and offered a factual challenge to Andrej Stancak on his evidence that he refused to answer. I then found myself on moderation for reasons Gordon refused to explain. Gordon also said he would restore my posting privileges on Jan 4. When that date came around he did not do so. When I sent an e-mail asking why he did not answer it. Mr Gordon is a typical bully moderator and is clearly moderating in favor of the Murphy posters.


My posts were quite clear in their content. They were not "rambling" or "drivel", they were actually the cutting edge on the subject. When Gilbride defended me he was immediately suspended and still has his privileges revoked. Duncan also found himself having trouble posting when he posted evidence that refuted ROKC.


Mr Kamp is a coward because he was calling me out on the Education Forum before I was a member saying I was coward for not coming over there and debating him. So after I showed up Mr Kamp left the thread and stopped posting. He cut and ran and made no attempt to debate me or answer my evidence. Now that his moderator protector has censored me Kamp is back speaking from the cowardly safety of censorship. And, no, he never answered my evidence in my last post on the Education Forum, nor is he answering the points I am making in these remote responses. Typical of ROKC he's switched the topic to me instead of answering the informational points I was making and none of the dishonest membership on the Education Forum calls him on it.


What Kamp is dodging here is answering our height argument, our Davidson enhancement, as well as his claim that Campbell wasn't referring to Truly and Baker when he said "Truly and an officer went into the building". He's the one offering the rambling and drivel. We're demanding answers to evidence and he's avoiding them with the dirty help of a major british coward named James Gordon.


This is why Miller is not a good representative for our side. If he were a credible defender of our case he would cite my posts and make Kamp and Stancak answer them. It is obvious to me that Gordon isn't too bright and just sides with sources he thinks are established. He's too dumb to see that ROKC's material is complete bullshit and he should never be moderator.


ROKC somehow got a photo of my mother and put it on their site in a mocking cartoon about a padded cell. ROKC are scum and hooligans who should be driven from the internet.



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[Albert Doyle]

The fact is that Prayer Man is not Oswald. Not only do I believe PM is too big to be Lee, but whether Baker met Oswald on the second floor or the first floor - Oswald cannot be both inside the building and outside at the same time.

This is why Bill Miller should not be the spokesperson for the anti-Murphy side. Prayer Man is too short to be Oswald, not too tall. Miller is showing an incompetency towards the best evidence. Gordon continues to enforce a clown show at the Education Forum. If anyone bothered to notice, pages back in that same thread we proved Prayer Man is too short to be Oswald by height comparison with Frazier.


The way the Murphy mob gets around Oswald being on the landing and being in the foyer storage closet at the same time is they say Oswald was a person who didn't draw much attention to himself and wasn't very memorable. That he slipped inside quickly unnoticed.


Sean Murphy needs to get some integrity and come correct the problem he has unleashed on the community. No purveyor of any credible JFK Assassination theory just disappears.



We the Assassination research community give awards to knuckleheads. Though their research may be complete garbage that undermines the integrity of the community and sets it back years, we recognize good boys who try, even though they are pushing obvious bullshit. We also quietly attack, mug, and censor, in the background where nobody can see it, those who actually do the excellent research and provide the best evidence. When you have a majority that marches naked and you don't want to admit it just make nudity the norm...



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[LR Trotter]

It is quite apparent that the effort to attack BillMiller is in full force on the EF. But, I am not a member of that forum, and remain firm on my decision to not join any more JFK AssassinationForums. I do believe I have learned my lesson well.
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