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The Cover-Up: How Was Movement from Phase I to Phase II Justified?
#31
Magda Hassan Wrote:
Peter Lemkin Wrote:
Cliff Varnell Wrote:
Charles Drago Wrote:I posed this hypothetical with the caveat that it was better suited for a book (fiction) proposal or screen treatment (drama) than for a serious discussion of this topic.

On the other hand ...

Having a little fun with all this: There would have been zero operational necessity to tell the planners of Che's execution and the mechanics who pulled it off that their action would be characterized -- falsely, secretly and to a very small group -- as retaliation for Che's involvement in the JFK hit.

And now that I'm officially off the wall: The death of Yuri Andropov might have been explained in a similar fashion.


It makes for dramatic irony: Earl Warren and the Innocents, told that an operation's underway to avenge JFK's murder, are put to ease with news of Che's death, secretly by the hands of JFK's killers. With a second chance to put away a Commie patsy -- they got it right.

I don't get it, as Che's death happened on or about October 9th, 1967.
Come rain, hail or sun they will always get their man....Andropov was another 2 decades on from that. It is just a possible scenario Peter.

Magda, you hit the coffin nail on the head.

After all, how many years passed between Santino's payment of his penultimate toll and the demand for Carlo to answer for his role in the booth business?
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#32
John Mooney Wrote:Opinion. There's a lot of it about.

More than you'd care to know.
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#33
Phil Dragoo Wrote:Charles, your most insightful comment was posing the question What do/did Harriman, Bundy, Whitney have in common?


That was me, the Shirt Guy. The Shirt leads me in two directions -- the killing and the cover-up.

In regard to the killing, the fact that the bullet hole in the shirt is too low to have been associated with the throat wound means there were two entrance wounds back/throat no exits and no bullets recovered during the autopsy. This leads to FBI SA James Sibert making a call to the FBI Lab at the end of the autopsy to inquire as to the existence of bullets that don't show up on x-ray. That was one bright act of criminal investigation. Had the FBI been on the up and up Fort Detrick would have been swarming with FBIs Saturday the 23rd.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/New_Scans/flechette.txt

Hello Flechette.

In regard to the cover-up...and the killing for that matter...one is reminded of what Harold Feldman told his brother-in-law Vincent Salandria on Saturday the 23rd (I paraphrase): "If a Jew kills Oswald the WASPs did it."

Harriman walking into the WH the evening of 11/22 and telling Johnson that the US gov't's top Kremlinologists had unanimously concluded the Soviets were innocent...this seems hinky to me. There wasn't enough time to have gathered such a consensus.

Now, this is according to Max Holland who heard some tapes or other, and who knows, maybe he got it wrong.

But this rush to judgement, if it's true, puts the spotlight on Harriman and his actions and his associations and his agendas.

Ft. Detrick and the WASP Capo...that's where the Shirt takes me!

Gentle reader, dig this abrupt transition back ON TOPIC:rocker:



INT. NIGHT. EARL WARREN'S bedroom. Oct. 9th, 1967.

WARREN sits up in bed reading the Washington Post post. Frowns over the terrible Vietnam headlines. Sighs and folds the paper, puts it on the night stand, puts his reading glasses on top of the paper and turns out the light.

The phone rings. He answers it in the dark.

WARREN

Hello?


VOICE on the other end

Good evening Chief Justice



WARREN swings his feet out of bed and sits up straight.

Mr. President...G-good evening!


JOHNSON

Sorry to call you so late, but I have a bit of news I think you'd want to hear on the quick.


WARREN turns on the light, takes a pad of paper and a pen out of the night stand drawer.

Yes, Mr. President?


JOHNSON

You remember that conversation we had in the Rose Garden at Christmas-time back in...'63?



WARREN quickly puts the pad of paper and pen back in the drawer.

Yes, Mr. President?


JOHNSON

We got him. You'll read about it in the papers tomorrow.


WARREN

That's great, Mr. President. Congratulations! Terrific!


JOHNSON

I think we'll all sleep better tonight.


WARREN

Yes sir!


JOHNSON

G night, Chief Justice


WARREN

Good night, Mr President. Thank you.


WARREN turns off the light and lays in the dark flashing back....stock images of the assassination...posing with the Warren Report...the whole back story in flashbacks...


INT. NIGHT. RICHARD RUSSELL's bedroom...

..You get the idea...

Your turn, Charles...
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#34
Don't quit your day job.

Che sera, sera,
Whoever I say, you'll be,
Including a dead patsy,
Che sera, sera
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#35
CD: The WW III scare that is the Phase I scenario was created for a reason: To force powerful figures not involved in the conspiracy to go along with what to them would be immediately recognizable as the patently false LHO-alone Phase of the cover-up.

Not so sure I agree with this. And I am familiar with Scott's work on it and Newman's riff on that tune.

How do we know that an invasion of Cuba was not actually a real aim of the conspirators rather than a way to maneuver the cover up? And I sure do not agree that the DFS was as important as the CIA in regards to the whole Mexico City mirage. The DFS was a mere appendage doing the Agency's bidding. This is very apparent in reading John Armstrong's long chapter (132 pages) on Mexico City in Harvey and Lee.

What Armstrong does that no one ever has done to his extent is to examine the trip down and the so called return trip. Its pretty clear that the DFS was aiding the cover up. But it is also clear they did this at the behest of the CIA at certain crucial points. THat is, to remove evidence that there was an imposter on the bus.

But as far as the actual Mexico City operation, that is clearly a certain small circle, which does not include Win Scott. Its Phillips, Angleton, Anne Goodpasture, and to a small extent, FBI agent Eldon Rudd. After reading the available literature, and writing about it at length twice, I cannot see the DFS role in actual Mexico City proper.
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#36
Pages 330-1 Destiny Betrayed, Skyhorse, 2012, Jock Whitney , publisher of the New York Herald Tribune, and a firm Rockefeller ally. . . .

November 23, 1963 New York Herald Tribune publishes editorial. . .cites The Assassins by former Herald Tribune reporter Robert Donovan. . ."previous American assassination attempts did not attempt to shift political power. . ."

An accompanying editorial then said that in America, assassinations have almost always been the work of 'crazed individuals representing nothing but their own wild imaginings. . . .the heat of normal politics has its reflex on the lunatic fringe.'

And continuing in the author of Destiny's words:

In other words, on the night of the assassination, Whitney's newspaper--with him reviewing the content--had predicted what the Warren Commission would conclude ten months later. That Oswald was a disturbed killer, a sociopath.

Again, author DiEugenio:

The very book that the Herald Tribune was quoting from, The Assassins, is the same book that Allen Dulles would be passing out to fellow members of the Commission at their first meeting, just two weeks later. This was a clear attempt by the former spymaster to influence the Warren Commission members. Just as Whitney's paper, under his direct supervision, was trying to inculcate the public. And there can be no doubt that Whitney knew Dulles.

Phil's comment:

Synchronicity in having just read this passage as Charles brings up the complex question of pretexts.

I submit the Bay of Pigs invasion itself was based on a public pretext of liberation and a covert intent of trapping the new president and branding him a betrayer to the impassioned trained Cubans, their intelligence handlers and the military leadership thoroughly dissatisfied with the CinC's pulling punches and seeking detente.

To be sure the false defection plus the FPCC street theater was used to paint Oswald as a Salem witch (O tempore) and it successfully demonized him.

With so much blood in the eyeballs of red-blooded Americans the rest of motive did not matter.

After Hungary 1956 and Berlin Wall and Bay of Pigs 1961, can anyone have seriously thought this administration would invade Cuba--wasn't that the point of the missile crisis negotiations, part official, part public in the press.

The controversial president is shot dead. We know now for interlocking reasons seemingly disparate yet transforming into the mailed fist of the security state.

If any needed that mythic fig leaf of conscience salve, tell 'em it was a commie plot, Kostikov and all that rot.

Clumsily done, the photos wrong, the recordings wrong according to six FBI agents in short order.

Warren might be susceptible to it. Later Frank Sturgis would claim it was KGB.



And Frank Sturgis served Helms' plot to bring down Nixon with Watergate.

Per Gibson the Commission comes from Acheson, Rostow, et al.

The lone gunman comes from Whitney and Dulles.

LBJ used 40 million killed in the first thirty minutes of a war to compel Warren.

But the Mexico City ploy wasn't convincing to LBJ and Hoover.

Sad to no longer have the DiEugenio review of Bugliosi Part III

"She's a lying, conniving bitch. And if there was any justice in this world, she'd be in jail."--Ed Lopez to Jim DiEugenio, describing Anne Goodpasture

Charles found The Package (1989) in which Soviet and U.S. milint cabals unite to assassinate their leaders finessing detente.

Would there be a mutual interest between KGB and CIA in sheepdipping Oswald in Mexico City.

I found the Frontline episode of interest:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/.../1205.html

NARRATOR: But there is much evidence that the real Oswald was in Mexico City. At the Soviet embassy, all three KGB officers told FRONTLINE the man they met was the real Lee Harvey Oswald, not the man in the photograph the CIA released.

Mr. KOSTIKOV: No, this is a completely different person. The Oswald who had visited our embassy and whose photographs I saw in many newspapers and on T.V. was completely different.

Ms. DURAN: The day after the assassination, in the Mexican newspapers were a photo of Oswald and I said to my husband, "I'm sure that this is the man who went to us for a visa." So I went to the embassy and I look up the applications and I saw his application and it was the same one.

And of course CIA ordered DFS twice to arrest Ms. Duran and not let the U.S. hand show. She was saying it was not Oswald.

But look at the attitude of the Yale CIA William F. Buckley in the 1966 Firing Line roast of Mark Lane--Buckley says Communist, Lane's a Communist, Oswald's a Communist--in the end says he doesn't care who killed Kennedy.

And you know, the truth is there: Kennedy needed killing.

The Establishment knew what it would take to get by: more than just Hoover or just Texas--it would take a blue ribbon commission.

Run by a prize ass.

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#37
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:How do we know that an invasion of Cuba was not actually a real aim of the conspirators rather than a way to maneuver the cover up?

I'm certain that the invasion of Cuba WAS a real aim of some of the conspirators operating at the Facilitator and Mechanic levels.

But I submit that at the Sponsor level there could be found perception of long-term value in the maintenance of a communist "threat" just 90 miles away. Castro was more valuable alive than dead. For wasn't the whole point of Cold War dramaturgy -- on both sides of the Iron Curtain -- to maximize power and profit by maintaining and controlling hostilities?

Substitute Al Qaeda and, for more than a decade, OBL for communist Cuba and Fidel, and you see that the Cold War template is alive and well.

How were the get-Castro hotheads controlled post-assassination when their shared dream fizzled? I suspect that some were bought off, some were scared off, and some were marked forever absent.

To put it another way: If the Sponsors wanted Castro gone, he would have shuffled off this mortal coil a long time ago.

One more comment on your question above: We reduce the JFK "conspirators" to a monolithic entity at the risk of fatally weakening our understanding of why JFK died.
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#38
CD: I submit that at the Sponsor level there could be found perception of long-term value in the maintenance of a communist "threat" just 90 miles away. Castro was more valuable alive than dead.


Mike Ruppert and I once talked about something like this which touches on this issue. At times there are differences among the elite in objectives. For example, with the "surge" in Iraq, the nutty neo cons were for it, the ideological paleo cons were against it.

See, in any serious examination of the Bay of Pigs, which includes the declassified record, it is an inescapable conclusion that the ultimate aim of the operation was to hood wink Kennedy into launching American forces into an invasion i.e. using Arleigh Burke's naval fleet off the coast of Florida, which was monitoring the failed incursion. And, in fact, there is no doubt that if Nixon was president, that is what would have happened. Since he admitted this to Kennedy when Kennedy called him for advice.

The only reason that Cuba is not a colony of the USA today is that Kennedy was president. If it had been Nixon, Johnson or Eisenhower, Cuba would be a territory of the American empire today.

In what we are talking about here, that is the aftermath of the assassination, things are a bit different. For the simple reason that we are talking about a supposed provocation and not an invasion. And we are talking about a supposed provocation from both the USSR and Cuba, down in Mexico City. When Johnson called McNamara, he was obviously worried about the Russians, since Cuba had no atomic weapons. He then used this to manipulate both Warren and Russell into signing onto the WC.

One can look at what LBJ did in two ways: 1.) He was not going to start nuclear holocaust over whether or not Oswald was at work for the commies when he killed Kennedy. Or 2.) Since Hoover told him it was not Oswald's voice on the tape BEFORE he used this material, he himself suspected something was wrong with this evidence insinuating Oswald did what he did for the commies.

IMO, I think its a mixture of both. At this particular time, as with "the surge", there were differences among the elite in the perception of both circumstances and objectives. IMO, there is no doubt that some people involved wanted an invasion. Evidence for this is what Bringuier and the DRE did right afterwards.
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#39
Charles Drago Wrote:Don't quit your day job.

Does this mean I don't get the Charles Drago Script Development gig?

Damn...I coulda used the cash...


Wink


Okay...onto Cuba and our usual dispute over the significance of Castro...
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#40
CASH???

We don't need no stinkin' cash!
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