16-01-2011, 04:35 PM
Jim, et al,
In the interests of saving bandwidth and preserving attention spans, I'll begin by eliminating all but the final sentence of Jim's first two paragraphs even as I note my appreciation for said material's properties of cogency and succinctness. Well done.
Quite so. In the highly complex structure of this assassination conspiracy, however, there were multiple courses of events pre- and post- shooting.
Substitute "Richard Nixon" for "LBJ" and this paragraph loses not a scintilla of validity. If you prefer, substitute "James Jesus Angleton" or "J. Edgar Hoover".
Or don't. But do understand that "relationships" and "connections" do not inevitably bestow authority to command. They just as readily present as blackmail vulnerabilities.
"Uniquely"? I think not. Again I'll cite RMN as someone who could give LBJ a run for his money on these counts. And RMN was not under threat of indictment.
Except, alas, the obstacles preventing him from winning the Democratic presidential nomination in 1960, staying on the 1964 ticket, and avoiding what we agree were the coming criminal prosecutions.
The apparatus of the over government, that is. And of course absent any reasonable evidence in support of Nelson's discredited "mastermind" provocation, and in light of his multiple vulnerabilities and high profile cui bono status, this reality strongly argues for LBJ's role as wholly controlled, blackmailed Facilitator.
The single most important function for LBJ the accessory after the fact of regicide was indeed to do all within the limited powers of the presidency to keep the heat focused on the designated patsy. Agreed.
But Jim, you have no evidence to support placing LBJ any higher within the conspiracy than the Facilitator level.
LBJ -- and I cannot stress this strongly enough -- was second only to LHO as this plot's near-perfect patsy.
Then why aren't you joining me in excoriating Nelson for making the claim that LBJ was the goddamn "mastermind" of this plot? Do you agree with Nelson that:
"[The conspiracy] was all according to the grand play -- a masterpiece of design and execution -- which had been developed over a period of nearly four years by the most brilliant, and evil, political force the country had ever seen: Lyndon Baines ('Bull') Johnson[.]" [emphasis in original] [p. 576]
and
"More than any other person, [LBJ] had the means, motive, and opportunity to have been the singular key conspirator-instigator and the mastermind of the operation." [emphasis added] [p. 668]
Or do you repudiate this outburst of comic book-level disinformation?
Don't wait for the translation. I'm prepared to wait until hell freezes over for your answer.
Some "mastermind," sending his publicly acknowledged "chief administrative assistant" to the city in his home state where his brilliant plan for regicide would unfold.
This is LBJ being patsied to ensure his continued cooperation. "Mastermind" my ass! LBJ was a wholly owned and controlled subsidiary of the true Sponsors of the JFK murder. Why can't you see it?
We know NOTHING of value from a mistress, a political fixer with motive to lie, a misguided attorney, and a grand master of disinformation. Keep trotting them out, Jim. No one but you, Nelson, and the genius Morrow are buying it.
I certainly do not contest LBJ's role as A pivotal player.
Phil Nelson's "mastermind" conceit is his undoing. You cannot avoid this truth. You squirm to get Nelson off the hook, but to no avail. He tells us nothing about LBJ's role in the plot that we did not already suspect. By elevating LBJ to "mastermind" status, Nelson elevates LBJ to FALSE SPONSOR status, and as a consequence he adds yet another layer of protection for the TRUE SPONSORS of JFK's murder.
Not only do I doubt it. I thoroughly reject it, as I reject the implied characterization of Ruby as someone with intimate knowledge of the plot in all of its complexity.
The assassination would not have happened AS IT DID had an UNCONTROLLABLE, HONORABLE VICE PRESIDENT been in office. Period.
Shame on you, Jim, for using Nelson's heinous terminology.
LBJ "insured [the assassination's success]"??? I dare you to expound upon and defend this absurd conclusion.
Which elements of the plot did LBJ "oversee"??? Which is to say, "control"???
In the interests of saving bandwidth and preserving attention spans, I'll begin by eliminating all but the final sentence of Jim's first two paragraphs even as I note my appreciation for said material's properties of cogency and succinctness. Well done.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:In relation to the assassination, the question becomes, Which individual or group have more power to control the course of events?
Quite so. In the highly complex structure of this assassination conspiracy, however, there were multiple courses of events pre- and post- shooting.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Lyndon Johnson had spent his entire life controlling other persons and exercising power. He had a political genius for sizing up the strengths and weaknesses of men, especially those who had anything to do with politics in relation to making decisions and allocating resources. By virtue of an intricate network of relationships that LBJ had developed over the course of his career, he had established connections with an enormous range of individuals and groups, including the Directors of the FBI and of the CIA, the Joint Chiefs, the Speaker of the House, and virtually every other powerful figure whose resources might make a difference to conducting the removal of his predecessor by the use of violence. He even devoted time to cultivating relations with members of the Secret Service.
Substitute "Richard Nixon" for "LBJ" and this paragraph loses not a scintilla of validity. If you prefer, substitute "James Jesus Angleton" or "J. Edgar Hoover".
Or don't. But do understand that "relationships" and "connections" do not inevitably bestow authority to command. They just as readily present as blackmail vulnerabilities.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Because of his network of associations and collaborations, Lyndon was uniquely placed to encourage resentment of JFK and to promote political opposition to his actions and policies.
"Uniquely"? I think not. Again I'll cite RMN as someone who could give LBJ a run for his money on these counts. And RMN was not under threat of indictment.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:He had always aspired to be president of all the people and had demonstrated the capacity for overcoming obstacles that stood in his way from the earliest stages of his development. He was perceptive, cunning, relentless, and brutal[.]
Except, alas, the obstacles preventing him from winning the Democratic presidential nomination in 1960, staying on the 1964 ticket, and avoiding what we agree were the coming criminal prosecutions.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:By virtue of his position as Vice President, he was the one and only person who could control the apparatus of the government in relation to the pursuit of those who were responsible for the death of JFK.
The apparatus of the over government, that is. And of course absent any reasonable evidence in support of Nelson's discredited "mastermind" provocation, and in light of his multiple vulnerabilities and high profile cui bono status, this reality strongly argues for LBJ's role as wholly controlled, blackmailed Facilitator.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:And since they included Lyndon himself, others who wanted JFK out were willing to collaborate with him in the undertaking on the understanding that NO ONE would pay any price for the assassination.
The single most important function for LBJ the accessory after the fact of regicide was indeed to do all within the limited powers of the presidency to keep the heat focused on the designated patsy. Agreed.
But Jim, you have no evidence to support placing LBJ any higher within the conspiracy than the Facilitator level.
LBJ -- and I cannot stress this strongly enough -- was second only to LHO as this plot's near-perfect patsy.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:In order to have been the pivotal player, Lyndon did not have to control very detail of a complex operation.
Then why aren't you joining me in excoriating Nelson for making the claim that LBJ was the goddamn "mastermind" of this plot? Do you agree with Nelson that:
"[The conspiracy] was all according to the grand play -- a masterpiece of design and execution -- which had been developed over a period of nearly four years by the most brilliant, and evil, political force the country had ever seen: Lyndon Baines ('Bull') Johnson[.]" [emphasis in original] [p. 576]
and
"More than any other person, [LBJ] had the means, motive, and opportunity to have been the singular key conspirator-instigator and the mastermind of the operation." [emphasis added] [p. 668]
Or do you repudiate this outburst of comic book-level disinformation?
Don't wait for the translation. I'm prepared to wait until hell freezes over for your answer.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:{LBJ} even sent his chief administrative assistant, Cliff Carter, to Dallas to make sure that all the arrangements were in place for the assassination. A "hands on" kind of guy, LBJ was going to make sure that this event was a success, since nothing would have been worse for the conspirators than a wounded but not mortally wounded target.
Some "mastermind," sending his publicly acknowledged "chief administrative assistant" to the city in his home state where his brilliant plan for regicide would unfold.
This is LBJ being patsied to ensure his continued cooperation. "Mastermind" my ass! LBJ was a wholly owned and controlled subsidiary of the true Sponsors of the JFK murder. Why can't you see it?
James H. Fetzer Wrote:And once it had been done, he was very active in covering it up. We know Lyndon was profoundly involved from those who knew him best, including Madeleine, Billy Sol, and others who were not quite as close, such as Barr McClellan and E. Howard Hunt.
We know NOTHING of value from a mistress, a political fixer with motive to lie, a misguided attorney, and a grand master of disinformation. Keep trotting them out, Jim. No one but you, Nelson, and the genius Morrow are buying it.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:We know that JFK had antagonized the most politically powerful individuals and groups in the country, from the CIA to the Chiefs to the Mafia, the Texas oil men and the bankers and financiers behind the scene, as James Douglass has explained. Their resentment and distrust led them to support the coup, where Lyndon was the person who played the crucial role that enabled it to proceed by guaranteeing that no one would play a price for their involvement. Phil Nelson has laid it out in such a thorough, meticulous, detailed and coherent fashion that I find it difficult to understand why anyone would contest Lyndon's role as the pivotal player.
I certainly do not contest LBJ's role as A pivotal player.
Phil Nelson's "mastermind" conceit is his undoing. You cannot avoid this truth. You squirm to get Nelson off the hook, but to no avail. He tells us nothing about LBJ's role in the plot that we did not already suspect. By elevating LBJ to "mastermind" status, Nelson elevates LBJ to FALSE SPONSOR status, and as a consequence he adds yet another layer of protection for the TRUE SPONSORS of JFK's murder.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:How can anyone doubt that, when Jack Ruby observed this would not have happened had anyone else been Vice President, he was speaking the truth?
Not only do I doubt it. I thoroughly reject it, as I reject the implied characterization of Ruby as someone with intimate knowledge of the plot in all of its complexity.
The assassination would not have happened AS IT DID had an UNCONTROLLABLE, HONORABLE VICE PRESIDENT been in office. Period.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Those who want to appreciate the model that was implemented in this historic event should return to Noel Twyman, who sketched the elements of a perfect conspiracy, which is precisely what we had in this case. And the pivotal player--the political mastermind, if you will--was Lyndon Baines Johnson.
Shame on you, Jim, for using Nelson's heinous terminology.
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Lyndon [w]as the pivotal player who promoted the assassination, insured its success, and covered it up. No one else was in that position or could have overseen it with greater competence than LBJ.
LBJ "insured [the assassination's success]"??? I dare you to expound upon and defend this absurd conclusion.
Which elements of the plot did LBJ "oversee"??? Which is to say, "control"???
Charles Drago
Co-Founder, Deep Politics Forum
If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence: He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave.
-- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods
You can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity.
-- Graham Greene
Co-Founder, Deep Politics Forum
If an individual, through either his own volition or events over which he had no control, found himself taking up residence in a country undefined by flags or physical borders, he could be assured of one immediate and abiding consequence: He was on his own, and solitude and loneliness would probably be his companions unto the grave.
-- James Lee Burke, Rain Gods
You can't blame the innocent, they are always guiltless. All you can do is control them or eliminate them. Innocence is a kind of insanity.
-- Graham Greene

