The Mystery of Red Bird AIrport

[Jim DiEugenio]

http://www.ctka.net/2013/Hancock_Redbird.html

Interesting essay by Larry.

Nice reflection on Bugliosi.

[Magda Hassan]

I haven't got my copy handy but didn't James Douglass also talk about a plane at Red Bird in his JFKU? Some thing to do with an Oswald connection? And it had a hitch hicker on it?

[Peter Lemkin]

I haven't got my copy handy but didn't James Douglass also talk about a plane at Red Bird in his JFKU? Some thing to do with an Oswald connection? And it had a hitch hicker on it?

You're a bit mistaken, in JFKU there is a plane of a only somewhat similar type described to have been at Red Bird, but it lands on the banks of the river [!] on the dirt/cement bank some way [few miles/km?] North of the Plaza and picks up a LHO look-alike. As some here might know, I worked with Tosh Plumlee on his life's story for many years and he claimed that after offloading some men and a large wooden crate [which had been onloaded at a stop in New Orleans] at Garland airport in the early hours of 11.22.63, he flew on to and parked his plane at Red Bird - from which he went to a safehouse and then to the Plaza [later after the assassination, first to the Sportatorium, then back to the safehouse and finally back to Red Bird]. Long before Wayne January chose to speak [through researcher Matt Smith - not to be disclosed until after his death], I had been given his name by Plumlee and Jim Marrs and I tried to locate him. I did eventually locate him, but he didn't want to talk to me nor Marrs; also all records of flights in/out of Red Bird on or near the time of the events of Dallas were no longer available - or it seemed they had been removed. We now know why January feared talking. Plumlee's story in many ways dovetails with that told by January and in some other ways does not. I have asked Plumlee many times to attempt to reconcile the differences and he has declined to do so. It is quite a mystery how he'd know about January and some of the events going on at that airport that day if he was either not there or had not had them told to him by someone who had been. There is much more to this, and i plan to write it up at some point. Hancock's story is good, but it is missing the Plumlee piece of the Red Bird puzzle and the parallel [?] Douglass piece to the planes exfiltrating operatives that day, IMHO. Another airport likely used that day was another small commercial airport to the North called Garland. So between the January, Plumlee and version in Douglass' book there are three variants of a plane[s] taking away persons 'knowledgeable' of the events, and perhaps a LHO double. Two have to be incorrect or all three - perhaps with each containing truthful elements. The fact there are multiple stories of the 'same sort of event' is typical of Dallas 11/22/63 and is likely a result of, in part, the cover-up...as three mutually exclusive [in some aspects] events [with some parts precisely the same or very similar] can't all have occurred that day. I'm personally inclined at this time to think that the January version most likely contains more of the true events than the others. It is possible that the plane and men mentioned by January [and Plumlee] as well as another plane of the exact same type [as described by Douglass] both occurred....but there are some reasons to conjecture that they likely both did not. It is yet another incompletely solved mystery of the events of Dallas, IMHO. [I contacted Smith and tried to work with him to reconcile the differences of the Plumlee and January versions, but he was not much interested in this/my effort, not believing the Plumlee story worthy of the effort.]

[Magda Hassan]

You're a bit mistaken, in JFKU there is a plane of the same type described to have been at Red Bird, but it lands on the banks of the river [!] on the dirt/cement bank some way [few miles/km?] North of the Plaza and picks up a LHO look-alike. As some here might know, I worked with Tosh Plumlee on his life's story for many years and he claimed that after offloading some men and a large wooden crate [which had been onloaded at a stop in New Orleans] at Garland airport in the early hours of 11.22.63, he flew on to and parked his plane at Red Bird - from which he went to a safehouse and then to the Plaza [later after the assassination, first to the Sportatorium, then back to the safehouse and finally back to Red Bird]. Long before Wayne January chose to speak [through researcher Matt Smith - not to be disclosed until after his death], I had been given his name by Plumlee and Jim Marrs and I tried to locate him. I did eventually locate him, but he didn't want to talk to me nor Marrs; also all records of flights in/out of Red Bird on or near the time of the events of Dallas were no longer available - or it seemed they had been removed. We now know why January feared talking. Plumlee's story in many ways dovetails with that told by January and in some other ways does not. I have asked Plumlee many times to attempt to reconcile the differences and he has declined to do so. It is quite a mystery how he'd know about January and some of the events going on at that airport that day if he was either not there or had not had them told to him by someone who had been. There is much more to this, and i plan to write it up at some point. Hancock's story is good, but it is missing the Plumlee piece of the Red Bird puzzle and the parallel [?] Douglass piece to the planes exfiltrating operatives that day, IMHO. Another airport likely used that day was another small commercial airport to the North called Garland. So between the January, Plumlee and version in Douglass' book there are three variants of a plane[s] taking away persons 'knowledgeable' of the events, and perhaps a LHO double. Two have to be incorrect or all three - perhaps with each containing truthful elements. The fact there are multiple stories of the 'same sort of event' is typical of Dallas 11/22/63 and is likely a result of, in part, the cover-up...as three mutually exclusive [in some aspects] events [with some parts precisely the same or very similar] can't all have occurred that day. I'm personally inclined at this time to think that the January version most likely contains more of the true events than the others. It is possible that the plane and men mentioned by January [and Plumlee] as well as another plane of the exact same type [as described by Douglass] both occurred....but there are some reasons to conjecture that they likely both did not. It is yet another incompletely solved mystery of the events of Dallas, IMHO. [I contacted Smith and tried to work with him to reconcile the differences of the Plumlee and January versions, but he was not much interested in this/my effort, not believing the Plumlee story worthy of the effort.]

I'm quite sure I am to Peter. Just trying to dredge up from the dusty basement of my mind. And very interesting info re Tosh. There is quite a bit more to the Red Bird airport by the looks of it. Bugliosi search for the truth seems some what timid doesn't it?

[Phil Dragoo]

In Douglass, the Wayne January story appears on pages 371-3, and in note 874 on page 483.

The Robert G. Vinson story appears on pages 298-304, and in notes 490-500 on pages 462-3.

January deals with a C-47, a twin-engine plane; Vinson, a C-54, a four-engine plane. January at Redbird Airport; Vinson, Andrews to Trinity River to Roswell.

Two separate men, planes, incidents.

Here is a 6/4/92 interview Tosh Plumlee gave in Dallas:

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/TOSHTRANS1.htm

Another story with legs, or wings, is that of David Ferrie. Immediately after searching for information about his library card and finding none, Ferrie made a phone call to Houston to reserve a room at the Alamotel, a Carlos Marcello owned motel.

When asked why he took the trip to Houston, Ferrie told federal authorities that he and two male companions drove all night on November 22, 1963, 350 miles, through a fierce thunderstorm to Houston to go goose hunting in Texas. He also claimed the trip was designed to gather information on how to run an ice skating rink, a business he wished to open in New Orleans. On the 23rd of November Ferrie visited the Winterland Skating Rink, managed by Chuck Rolland. Rolland told authorities he never spoke to Ferrie about the skating rink business. All Ferrie did, said Rolland, was make and receive phone calls for hours at a pay phone.

[Magda Hassan]

The Robert G. Vinson story appears on pages 298-304, and in notes 490-500 on pages 462-3.

That's the one I was trying to recall.

[Peter Lemkin]

Phil, I stand corrected that the two planes were dissimilar. In the Plumlee and January stories, the planes are the same type. However, in all stories, a LHO look-alike was involved or reported. I also would like to know more about IF a plane could have landed on the banks of the Trinity river [1] and not be noted by anyone on the ground [2]. The Ferrie story has a Plumlee twist to it, as well, as Plumlee claimed that the original plans [which were aborted and changed] called for their plane leaving Red Bird after picking up several men [one Plumlee had reasons to believe was LHO] and fly to rendevous with an 'former Eastern Airlines pilot - which Plumlee took as code for Ferrie. After the awated person's non-appearance at Red Bird, so Plumlee's story goes, they returned to Florida from where they had originally come - their covert base being hidden within a prison.

[LR Trotter]

Mentioned is the Alamotel in Houston, and I am wondering if there is any known address/location information. I do know that there was the Alamo Plaza Motel located at/near the 4700 Block of Old Spanish Trail, (AKA OST/AKA US Hwy 90A), but I am thinking there was an Alamotel at/near the 4100 Block of Old Spanish Trail (AKA OST/AKA US Hwy 90A).
:bolt:

[Phil Dragoo]

W.C.D. 75

FBI Interview of David Ferrie 11/25/63

by SA ERNEST WALL and SA L. M. SHEARER
at New Orleans


FERRIE claimed they arrived in Houston between 4:30 amd 5:30 AM and
went directly to the Alamotel located on South Main Steet, six to ten blocks south of the Shamrock Hilton Hotel, where they checked into Room 19. He stated that the three of them registered on the same card at the motel. After registering they retired for the night.

http://www.wf.net/~biles/jfk/ferrie_FBI_1125_2.txt



Note: The Shamrock Hotel was built at the intersection of South Main and then-Bellaire Boulevard (after 1963, Holcombe Boulevard).

Reference is made to an Alamotel Courts 8700 South Main with this history:

8700 S. Main St. Houston TX
(original built pre-1942, demolished/rebuilt between 1966-1973 and demolished 2005/2006; also known as Ramada Inn Domed Stadium, Domed Stadium Inn, Hospitality Inn)

Photos at:

http://arch-ive.org/archive/alamotel-courts-houston/

Address 8700 S. Main on this matchbook:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1940s-Era-Housto...5896484%26

[Dawn Meredith]

I haven't got my copy handy but didn't James Douglass also talk about a plane at Red Bird in his JFKU? Some thing to do with an Oswald connection? And it had a hitch hicker on it?

You're a bit mistaken, in JFKU there is a plane of the same type described to have been at Red Bird, but it lands on the banks of the river [!] on the dirt/cement bank some way [few miles/km?] North of the Plaza and picks up a LHO look-alike. As some here might know, I worked with Tosh Plumlee on his life's story for many years and he claimed that after offloading some men and a large wooden crate [which had been onloaded at a stop in New Orleans] at Garland airport in the early hours of 11.22.63, he flew on to and parked his plane at Red Bird - from which he went to a safehouse and then to the Plaza [later after the assassination, first to the Sportatorium, then back to the safehouse and finally back to Red Bird]. Long before Wayne January chose to speak [through researcher Matt Smith - not to be disclosed until after his death], I had been given his name by Plumlee and Jim Marrs and I tried to locate him. I did eventually locate him, but he didn't want to talk to me nor Marrs; also all records of flights in/out of Red Bird on or near the time of the events of Dallas were no longer available - or it seemed they had been removed. We now know why January feared talking. Plumlee's story in many ways dovetails with that told by January and in some other ways does not. I have asked Plumlee many times to attempt to reconcile the differences and he has declined to do so. It is quite a mystery how he'd know about January and some of the events going on at that airport that day if he was either not there or had not had them told to him by someone who had been. There is much more to this, and i plan to write it up at some point. Hancock's story is good, but it is missing the Plumlee piece of the Red Bird puzzle and the parallel [?] Douglass piece to the planes exfiltrating operatives that day, IMHO. Another airport likely used that day was another small commercial airport to the North called Garland. So between the January, Plumlee and version in Douglass' book there are three variants of a plane[s] taking away persons 'knowledgeable' of the events, and perhaps a LHO double. Two have to be incorrect or all three - perhaps with each containing truthful elements. The fact there are multiple stories of the 'same sort of event' is typical of Dallas 11/22/63 and is likely a result of, in part, the cover-up...as three mutually exclusive [in some aspects] events [with some parts precisely the same or very similar] can't all have occurred that day. I'm personally inclined at this time to think that the January version most likely contains more of the true events than the others. It is possible that the plane and men mentioned by January [and Plumlee] as well as another plane of the exact same type [as described by Douglass] both occurred....but there are some reasons to conjecture that they likely both did not. It is yet another incompletely solved mystery of the events of Dallas, IMHO. [I contacted Smith and tried to work with him to reconcile the differences of the Plumlee and January versions, but he was not much interested in this/my effort, not believing the Plumlee story worthy of the effort.]

When I read that part of JFKU I too thought of Tosh and emailed him asking questions. He did not respond.
I agree with you Peter that the January version sounds more authentic. Tosh may also be holding back for reasons of safety.
I will be most interested in seeing what you write on this.
Tosh and I are back in touch again, mainly email, but sometimes he does not respond to specific things. Odd becasue the questions I had about a month ago concerned .....well never mind...it is pictures that he and I both have and he posted on facebook then took the page down. Was ordered to he said...so I don't want to get him in any trouble. It was just one of those nice ironies that we would both have such a unique pic, mine was taken by a stranger as I wanted to get all four of in it. Sorry this is cryptic. Only becasue of Tosh.
Given what he's already told it is amazing he is alive. (LIke secret sworn testimony with the Kerry COmmission).

Sorry to go a bit off topic....
Dawn