Basic questions about Z Film alteration..

[Mark Underwood]

First of all, while a longtime Education Forum reader, I'm neither a researcher with credentials nor much qualified to debate the issues generally presented on this forum, but I have held a general question or two about the issues about whether the Zapruder film being altered and hope you'll both humor the newbie and possibly explain the arguments in layman's language. From the best I can gather from reading numerous threads over the years, the basic issue is that the Z film as we have it now clearly has frames edited out and the film does not match the detailed accounts of the eyewitnesses. The question I am left with is whether the missing frames, if reinserted, would complete the picture accurately and then match the eyewitness accounts or whether what we have in the film is simply so greatly mismatched that it calls the whole film into suspicion? To my uneducated eyes, I'm having trouble seeing how a limo stop and Clint Hill's own account of his specific actions fit into the film as it is now no matter how many frames might be possibly reinserted. Hoping those of you who do this on a research level can explain the basics to me and will forgive my pedantic presentation. Thanks in advance.

[Gordon Gray]

For me the best evidence for alteration are the apparent two deliveries of a "home movie" to the NPIC that weekend, http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013...vents.html, and the accounts of the "other film". IMO the Z film is basically what was seen but has been edited to make less apparent the number and direction of the shots and to remove the limousine stop.

[David Josephs]

I think it comes down to the two different camps on this

1) the entire movie is a fabrication
2) the film is basically the original Zfilm with alterations

Given what I've studied all these years MUCH of what we see in the Zfilm today DID HAPPEN... the film was altered and reshot as an original removing the stop, the turn at Elm, and many of the frames around the z313 mark. I am working on the theory that these scenes were shot in Slow motion... 48fps and that the spliced in 19 feet of blank film was just that, spliced in. I have yet to hear a coherent explanation for the Zfilm being entirely fabricated... but the day is young.

With a 48fps "master", removing frames to result in an 18.3fps finished film will produce a much smoother film yet explains some of the jerky movements where more frames were removed out of necessity. The lack of detail from those viewing the film those first couple of days seems to me to make a 48fps cut down possible... Can you imagine the SS letting Zapruder keep his original overnight for ANY reason? I find that stretches the bounds of belief... With as much planning and care in the cover-up, letting a citizen hold a film showing the assassination in all its glory is too much for me to accept.

I believe we will come to find one day that most if not ALL the activities that weekend were geared toward Oswald the lone nut and mixing as much BS as possible into the truth told that day. What's the best way to hide a black marble? Drop it into a vat of black marbles... with just the right amount of truth, the lies of the WCR become palatable to the uninformed.

There are MANY threads on the subject here... I've started a few myself... a read thru them will give you quite a background...
DJ

The coroborration of other films and photos suggests that the details in the zfilm are from what occurred that day... whether or not another film taken from that location at a different time was used to alter the film Zapruder shot, IDK.

The film others saw has a full limo stop, SS men with guns drawn piling out of the Queen Mary, JFK virtually lifted out of his seat with shot(s) to the head (sewer shot?)...

then there is the testimony of both Hill and Kellerman as the the shots and when Hill is on the limo

Hill running to the limo BEFORE the final shots...

Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--
Mr. KELLERMAN. B[B]etween the second and third shot[/B].

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just a[B]bout as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it[/B] seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.
Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there

As we know from the Zfilm... Hill only leaves to run to the limo AFTER the z313 shot "removed a portion of the President's head"....
Both men state there is another shot after the second which removes a portion of his head...
Hill tells us that a sound is heard as he reaches the limo...

Mr. LIEBELER - You also testified that you were standing perhaps no more than 15 feet away when the President was hit in the head and that you are absolutely certain that there were no shots fired after the President was hit in the head?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; that's correct.


At z341 Hill jumps up with his right foot, Altgens is closing in on his 15 foot picture that he does not take (yet another strange event... Altgens 7 looks nothing like the other professional images from Altgens that day... wonder why that is and whether he did actually take a photo around Z345.)

Here are frames Z340 thru 350... just as Hill is lunging with his right foot to get on the limo... he testifies to losing his footing and regaining it afterward... which is what we see...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4776[/ATTACH]


So we have a growing number of references for "A" shot being further down Elm...

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here (sic) another shot?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there

The WCR's own data tells us that the "final" shot was 4+95 This is CE875 which are photos of the location the limo was at a variety of different times... according to the survey data (below), z313 is at 4+65, NOT 30 feet further down Elm as the SS tells us.

The evidence suggests that a shot was fired and did hit JFK at 4+95... just as Hill, Kellerman, Hudson, and the SS tell us. From where and with what weapon is up for interpretation

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4777[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4778[/ATTACH]

[Mark Underwood]

Thanks to both of you for adding to my understanding of the basic issues. I read and listened to Rich DellaRosa's account of the "other" film and while I never had the opportunity to interact with him, I always was impressed with his recounting and credibility. I was always interested to see a visual recreation of what he saw in that film verses what the witnesses in DP described verses what the Z Film shows in some sort of comparison to see the level to which they could overlay and display unison and where and if they could not. I've never been sure whether "the limo stop" could actually fit with the frames we do have in the Z film and whether that can be reconciled. Difficult subject that requires much expertise and effort to understand, which is also a handful of "black marbles" in and of itself I suppose. Appreciate you taking time for a newbie. Thanks again.

[David Josephs]

Hey Mark...

Been away discovering new things in old text....

From CD298 we learn about a detailed model built by the FBI to illustrate when and where the shots were fired...
NO mention of Tague
NO mention of SBT
Three shots, three hits.

'cept in this explanation, Shot #2 is Z313 and the "last shot" is down by the stairs where Hudson and Altgens tell us the final shot occurred.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4827[/ATTACH]

Yet the WCR tells us a shot missed... and the SBT was born.

(edit: need to add that they probably could have said Tague was a fragment, yet they had to get at least one of the frontal shots, the throat, to come from behind...
I think the SBT was more about explaining away the frontal shot than a missed shot.)

THE SHOT THAT MISSED
[size=12]From the initial findings that (a) one shot passed through the
President's neck and then most probably passed through the Governor's
body, (b) a subsequent shot penetrated the President's head, © no
other shot struck any part of the automobile, and (d) three shots were
fired, it follows that one shot probably missed the car and its occupants.
The evidence is inconclusive as to whether it was the first,
second, or third shot which missed.
[/SIZE]


Pat Speer has done some great work on this and the "last shot" and how it changes from study to study... yet NONE of them puts the shot at 307 feet like the FBI does here...
and shot #2 at 262 feet.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...lPageId=62


[ATTACH=CONFIG]4828[/ATTACH]


The FBI model was created FROM a variety of sources including the films and photos and testimony -

My question is what could they have possibly looked at to create this model as there is no longer any evidence other than witness testimony that places a shot that far down Elm?a
And since they had the autopsy report stating a bullet had danced the SBT dance.. what are they doing here other than possibly telling the truth about 3 of the shots?

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Mr. HUDSON - Y[B]es; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there[/B].
Mr. LIEBELER - You think the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?
Mr. HUDSON - Pretty close to it; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired?
Mr. HUDSON - He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was hit in the neck one time and in the head one time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Wh[B]en the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it was coming around - it had just got around the corner,you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; I don't think so [/B]- I sure don't.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't think he got hit by the first shot?
Mr. HUDSON - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What happened after the President got hit in the head, did you see what he did, what happened in the car?
Mr. HUDSON - He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the seat with him and pulls him over.
Mr. LIEBELER - Pulled him down in the seat?
Mr. HUDSON - Pulled him over in her lap like.
Mr. LIEBELER - If you don't think the Presidentgot hit by the first shot and yoy say he got hit in the head with the second shot -
Mr. HUDSON - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And if we assume that he was shot twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was hit again after he got hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

[size=12]CONCLUSION
[/SIZE][size=12]Based on the evidence analyzed in this chapter, the Commission has
concluded that the shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded
overnor Connally were fired from the sixth-floor window at the
southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Two
bullets probably caused all the wounds suffered by President Kennedy
and Governor Connally. Since the preponderance of the evidence
indicated that three shots were fired, the Commission concluded that
one shot probably missed the Presidential limousine and its occupants,
and that the three shots xere fired in a time period ranging from
approximately 4.8 to in excess of 7 seconds.
[/SIZE]







[size=12]

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