How the FBI got 3 shots right and hid it - cd298 thanks to Weisberg

[David Josephs]

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...elPageId=6

This is CD 298.... The FBI's reconstruction of Dealey Plaza... as the linked page tells us:

"scale models were developed showing in minute detail pertinent physical features...." "...thus making it possible for those who have not visited these sites to gain a FULL AND CLEAR UNDERSTANDING of the happening surrounding each event" (my emphasis)


Given the time and effort to GET THINGS RIGHT and use this as a substitute for visiting DP or seeing the Z film....

[b]WHY IS THE 1ST SHOT AROUND 220?
THE 2ND SHOT AT Z313 AND
3RD SHOT WHEN THE LIMO REACHES THE STAIRS (just as Hudson and Altgens says it was).

:hmmm2:

btw... which is the Tague shot or the SBT shot? as the FBI report tells us all three shots hit their targets.... no SBT at all.... tumped:
This illustration has to be one of the ONLY ONES that actually shows where 3 of the shots ACTUALLY occurred....so if the 3rd shot happens THERE, what does that say about the films and photos showing something else?

DJ

[Tracy Riddle]

The FBI did its best to ignore the timing problems in the Z-film, as well as James Tague. It was just easier to say three shots, three hits. Hoover was not used to being contradicted. The Secret Service adopted the FBI's view of the shooting. Neither agency ever officially changed their view, as far as I know. The whole long story of how and why Arlen Specter and the WC adopted the Single Bullet Theory has been described by others (such as Gerald McKnight's "Breach of Trust").

[David Josephs]

OK... So who within the Sponsor/Facilitator/Mechanic hierarchy gives Arlen his marching orders?

[Tracy Riddle]

I think that model is extremely speculative, and involves a conspiracy so clever and sophisticated that none of the actual human beings who make up "The Powers That Be" could really hold something like that together.

I'm a conspiracy realist. I don't believe that the elites are really any smarter than the rest of us; in some cases, they aren't very bright or mentally stable at all. They just have a lot of money and power and connections. The conspiracies and cover-ups they construct are actually rather crude and don't stand up well under examination - but most people don't examine them, and that's the key. If 40% of the the public are watching Corporate Media, and another 40% doesn't watch any news at all, then no story is too ridiculous to sell people who've been brainwashed all their lives by television, Hollywood, consumer culture and advertising. Look how many official versions of JKF's wounds were given to the public between November 1963 and the publishing of the Warren Report. How many people even noticed that? Not many.

[David Josephs]

I get the impression Tracy that you've forgotten what happens to the tiny snowball when rolled down the mountain...

The "conspiracy" involves the suppression of actual evidence and the promotion of fraudulent evidence....
It involves a level of power that supercedes the FBI, GHoover, Warren, the POTUS, Congress, etc....

Read "Post Mortem" and then talk to us about "clever & sophisticated cover-up". When the lawyers and members of the Warren Commission are given a choice to show or suppress...
that which was supressed... contradicts the WCR conclusions and protects the guilty...

When on the flight back AF-1 learns that Oswald is the killer and there is no conspiracy.... from the WH Sit Room...
When the FBI report which becomes the WC Report concentrates more of Oswald's childhood than the FBI in the autopsy room at the time, or the doctors who attended Connally,
or the testimony of Dr McClellend.

If you are an expert at covert operations and KNOW that these types of operations could not be held together by "humans" please let us know.

Finally, I find it suprising that you would discount such a simple model in favor of what?
a few mechanics and facilitators getting together without the ok and cover of those in power ??

Who, other than a patsy, could have been charged with the crime and not unravel the security apparatus that was finally in place?
JFK wanted to unravel the CIA/MIC, so what better way to protect the guilty by wrapping the solving of such a crime in with the revealing of state secrets that simple could not be revealed...

The guilty have hid behind MANY layers of cover-up and conspiracy. The question of Humes' involvement as patriot or conspirator will forever be there...
If he was put into a position of making the choice between go along or drown... how about asking Roger Craig or Seymour Weitzman how "drowning" went

DJ

[Gordon Gray]

I think that model is extremely speculative, and involves a conspiracy so clever and sophisticated that none of the actual human beings who make up "The Powers That Be" could really hold something like that together.

I'm a conspiracy realist. I don't believe that the elites are really any smarter than the rest of us; in some cases, they aren't very bright or mentally stable at all. They just have a lot of money and power and connections. The conspiracies and cover-ups they construct are actually rather crude and don't stand up well under examination - but most people don't examine them, and that's the key. If 40% of the the public are watching Corporate Media, and another 40% doesn't watch any news at all, then no story is too ridiculous to sell people who've been brainwashed all their lives by television, Hollywood, consumer culture and advertising. Look how many official versions of JKF's wounds were given to the public between November 1963 and the publishing of the Warren Report. How many people even noticed that? Not many.

I totally concur. There are many aspects of the conspiracy that appear very crude, and hastily improvised. How could they let Oswald get away and get himself arrested. What kind of planning was that? If Greer doesn't slow to a stop the assassination doesn't happen. The whole autopsy business was hastily arranged, because with Oswald alive there was going to be a trial. Same for the two versions of the Z film. If they had to present it as evidence at a trial they needed a pristine original. Once Oswald was shot they could doctor it. What did Dulles say? "the American people don't read."

[Tracy Riddle]

David, I'm not sure what your point is, but here's what I think happened. There were two groups, and a lot of things went wrong:

* The Plotters
A relatively small (maybe 100 or so) compartmentalized assortment of people, some of whom don't even know they're involved in a plot to kill the President. But the top plotters want to blame Castro and the KGB, not a "lone nut." They want to kill JFK with one shot, not a shooting gallery that wounds other people. They want Oswald to be grabbed and disappear, so they can claim he is hiding in Cuba. They want a war with Cuba and possibly the USSR. I also think the Tippit murder was piggy-backed onto the plot by some low-level people (crooked cops, local mobsters) without authorization from higher up. This is the danger of compartmentalized operations.

* The Cover-Up
A huge group, hardly any of whom are involved in the plot to kill JFK. Motivated by different reasons - to protect America's image abroad, to preserve domestic tranquility and faith in American institutions, and most of all to prevent a nuclear war if the "Castro and KGB did it" meme takes hold. They are the ones who decide on the "lone nut" solution. It takes them almost a year of putting out absurd stories about where JFK's wounds were located and how they were inflicted. The FBI produces CE399 in a water tank in their lab so it will match the Carcano, because the pointed-nosed bullet found at Parkland won't match. On and on the ludicrous cover story is cobbled together, wiping out everything the plotters had wanted people to believe.

[David Josephs]

I think that model is extremely speculative, and involves a conspiracy so clever and sophisticated that none of the actual human beings who make up "The Powers That Be" could really hold something like that together.

I'm a conspiracy realist. I don't believe that the elites are really any smarter than the rest of us; in some cases, they aren't very bright or mentally stable at all. They just have a lot of money and power and connections. The conspiracies and cover-ups they construct are actually rather crude and don't stand up well under examination - but most people don't examine them, and that's the key. If 40% of the the public are watching Corporate Media, and another 40% doesn't watch any news at all, then no story is too ridiculous to sell people who've been brainwashed all their lives by television, Hollywood, consumer culture and advertising. Look how many official versions of JKF's wounds were given to the public between November 1963 and the publishing of the Warren Report. How many people even noticed that? Not many.

I totally concur. There are many aspects of the conspiracy that appear very crude, and hastily improvised. How could they let Oswald get away and get himself arrested. What kind of planning was that? If Greer doesn't slow to a stop the assassination doesn't happen. The whole autopsy business was hastily arranged, because with Oswald alive there was going to be a trial. Same for the two versions of the Z film. If they had to present it as evidence at a trial they needed a pristine original. Once Oswald was shot they could doctor it. What did Dulles say? "the American people don't read."

We are not assuming that the planning did not go off without improvisation.... yet this rebuttal argument is basically

"They were too stupid to do it THAT way"

Thing is guys, it happened the way it happened. What was planned and what wasn't is not something you can know from the outside unless there is evidence... and whether THAT EVIDENCE is false or not
Does insider trading make the Rich SMARTER or simply more KNOWLEDGEABLE coupled with the ability to utilize that knowledge?
Of course they are no SMARTER... the KNOWLEDGE that you are immune from accusation or even awareness of your involvement allows these POWERS THAT BE to try things others wouldn't dream of... as long as anonymity was guaranteed.

That you cannot fathom the planning process does not mean the process did not occur.

The conspiracies and cover-ups they construct are actually rather crude and don't stand up well under examination

And the nuance of this seems lost on you both. i[B]f they are so crude and don't stand up... [/B]tell us, 1/5/25/50 years later, who planned and killed JFK...?. as I/we can illustrate conspiracy/cover-up all day long - and to no end other than a depression at the depth of depravity.


"I'mafraid we were misled," Salandria said sadly. "All the critics,myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort micro-analyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was DealeyPlaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The coverstory was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: 'W[B]e are in control and no one -- not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official -- no one can do anything about it.'[/B] It[B] was a message tothe people that their government was powerless.[/B] And the people eventuallyg ot the message.

We must face that fact -- and not waste any more time micro-analyzing the
evidence. That's exactly what they want us to do. They have kept us
busy for so long. And I will bet, buddy, that is what will happen to
you. They'll keep you very, very busy and, eventually, they'll wear you
down."

[David Josephs]

David, I'm not sure what your point is, but here's what I think happened. There were two groups, and a lot of things went wrong:

* The Plotters
A relatively small (maybe 100 or so) compartmentalized assortment of people, some of whom don't even know they're involved in a plot to kill the President. But the top plotters want to blame Castro and the KGB, not a "lone nut." They want to kill JFK with one shot, not a shooting gallery that wounds other people. They want Oswald to be grabbed and disappear, so they can claim he is hiding in Cuba. They want a war with Cuba and possibly the USSR. I also think the Tippit murder was piggy-backed onto the plot by some low-level people (crooked cops, local mobsters) without authorization from higher up. This is the danger of compartmentalized operations.

* The Cover-Up
A huge group, hardly any of whom are involved in the plot to kill JFK. Motivated by different reasons - to protect America's image abroad, to preserve domestic tranquility and faith in American institutions, and most of all to prevent a nuclear war if the "Castro and KGB did it" meme takes hold. They are the ones who decide on the "lone nut" solution. It takes them almost a year of putting out absurd stories about where JFK's wounds were located and how they were inflicted. The FBI produces CE399 in a water tank in their lab so it will match the Carcano, because the pointed-nosed bullet found at Parkland won't match. On and on the ludicrous cover story is cobbled together, wiping out everything the plotters had wanted people to believe.

thanks Tracy... yet for something so crude and easy to figure out - you sure use "THEY" alot.

and I appreciate you writing up this recap. I can see some of your points yet still believe that, on a whole, you've missed the real point as I mention in my post above. IMO, Salandria had it nailed on Day 1.... and was sure by Day 3.

Kings and Fools, Tracy. The trick is to learn which you are as early as possible... and decide whether being a King is worth the price.

DJ

[Magda Hassan]

In terms of the 'plotters' this is not a united or homgenous group. The people who planed it and the people who carried it out are two (or more) different groups. They don't necessarily know who they are either. No need to. Lots of delegating. Lots of plausible deniability. The assassination was a military operation. The cover up is narrative and PR. For domestic consumption only.