Sean Murphy's research deserves more

[David Josephs]

David you really misunderstood my point so I apologise for not making it just that little bit clearer and as a result wasting your time.

Tracy said it best earlier in the thread;

It was either Meagher or Weisberg who first pointed out that not one of the TSBD employees was afraid of returning to the building, or acted like the shots came from their workplace. Some of the female employees would later tell the WC that they thought the shots came from the TSBD, but also said that they went right back to their offices. Oh really? Does that sound believable? In the office building where I work, if the President was shot right outside and anyone suspected the shooter was in our building, NO ONE would be going back in to possibly encounter a madman with a gun.

Sure a few went immeadiatly back inside to work but not after hearing unmistakable gunfire from anywhere, let alone their own building.
That's the crock.

As btw is Allman, 100% COS.

Donald, I'm afraid you are still not being clear...

The subject was what REID said about who passed her after she went back into the TSBD AFTER the shots... a man in a TSHIRT no Jacket or shirt over it who she thought was OSWALD... Definitely NOT the same person described by any number of people after the assassination... EVERYONE has OSWALD in the ARREST SHIRT even though it was known he changed his shirt and pants...

YOU claimed she was lying about going back into the building.
Is this not you?

Reid was one of those who went back in the building after she knew shots came from there, with the shooter still at large?
Back to work?
To those who are attempting to seperate the wheat from chaff in this area I would suggest that her account would be a good candidate for the pile.

What I see as a PILE Donald is your inability to simply go check your facts and come to your own conclusions... REID thought the shots HAD come from the building, Campbell didn't.
Adams was told by the police to go back to the building...

Is your point that the TSBD was not where the DPD thought the shots occurred and therefore were not only not interested in the TSBD but encouraged people to go back inside since they thought it was safe...?
or what Don...

Help me out here... It's only a waste of your time if you don't bother to look into what I posted and the sources. Those that want to truly see the wheat from the shaft will do so - and find you have misrepresented not only the facts but the entire point of this post... the thread is focused on who that person in the corner might be - whether it being OSWALD is possible... and I believe we have proven not only that it is possible but that the person bears a shocking resemblence to Oswald....

What are YOU trying to show?


Mrs. REID. And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Oh, my goodness, I am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like they came just so directly over my head, and then I looked up in the windows, and saw three colored boys up there, I only recognized one because I didn't know the rest of them so well.

Mr. BELIN. Before you turned and went back into the building did you---did Mr. Campbell say anything to you?
Mrs. REID. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area down this way," and that was the last I said to him.
Mr. BELIN. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he pointing?
Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing?
Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else?
Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office

Mr. BELIN. You went into the building in the main lobby?
Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take the elevator or the stairs?
Mrs. REID. No; I went up the stairs.
Mr. BELIN. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs?
Mrs. REID. No; the front stairs.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do?
Mrs. REID. I went into the office.
Mr. BELIN. You went into your office?
Mrs. REID. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?
Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."
He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.



Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."And he said, "That
is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."

[Tracy Riddle]

I suspect that the TSBD employees who went back in the building didn't really think the shots came from that location, but later decided to be "helpful witnesses" when it became clear - within hours - what the official story was. Otherwise honest people will do that. Especially back then when there was a lot more trust in the police and government.

[Donald Manning]

I think this is slightly clearer regarding the hand movements at least, from Martin and Robin using BRay frames.
That's indeed Lovelady back in the Hughes position looking over the head of a woman in black.
Someone else had the same idea before me as seems the case in all of what I noticed earlier.
PM is unwrapping something?
Needs a little software stabilisation.
Original footage is going to ID him.

[Donald Manning]

[quote=Donald Manning]
YOU claimed she was lying about going back into the building.
Is this not you?

No it is not David.
That strangely enough is the part of her recollection I have no trouble with whatsoever.

To those who are attempting to seperate the wheat from chaff in this area I would suggest that her account would be a good candidate for the pile.

Ahh okay,
yes I see why that pile comment was rather inappropriate since I don't disbelieve everything she said.

I certainly did Reid an huge injustice by lumping her with Allman but it just happened that way since it's who I was looking at the time and he would be totally on topic too but for the fact that on the day this man came back with virtually nothing of use, I had no idea how bad this guy really was.
Most famous for getting locked inside the TSBD whilst blocking a phoneline.
Of course, not a lot of people know this.
Cannot find the TV interview of him though since it appears it was so bad they cut it from the "As it Happened" footage.

Like most bystanders next to the TSBD looked to the west after the hit.
This is where he said he stood with Terence Ford, I cannot tell if this the ID below has been confirmed.
The man is of so little worth as a witness it's not exactly one for the data bank let alone the scrap book.


......................................................................................How do you feel?

[Donald Manning]

I suspect that the TSBD employees who went back in the building didn't really think the shots came from that location, but later decided to be "helpful witnesses" when it became clear - within hours - what the official story was. Otherwise honest people will do that. Especially back then when there was a lot more trust in the police and government.

Tracy, thank you,
there was also more than one clue to their direction for those paying attention.
Watch the penny drop.


Blantantly cut from another of Dark's gifs.

[Magda Hassan]

Blessed are the gif makers ::

[Donald Manning]

Actually these were from Martin and Robin's work sorry but again the initial source for this cowboy's curiousity appears to be the same.
Where's Dillard?

[Donald Manning]

Sean's research seems to me to have very little to do with Prayerman and certainly won't crumble if it turns out he's not Oswald.

The bulk of the discussion on RKC regarding this topic is about what the witnesses said and who is it we should trust(because they cannot all be straight(what's new?)). Truly, Baker, BWF, Shelley and others are all being stylishly picked apart.
Although I may have dismissed Reid a little prematurely it wasn't due to ignorance but rather, purely as a result of familiarity with witnesses' claims on top of recent refresher research and there is a pattern in what she said that we see quite often especially amongst the better known ones and it does not match what we are seeing in, in this instance, Darnell and Couch's footage.

It's entirely possible however that just like the woman seen above in Darnell(could it actually be her?), Reid did in fact look up at the windows for some reason before heading back inside and since there is evidence that Jarman would be quite easy to spot even from that part of the street, that too wouldn't be even worth doubting.
What is highly suspect to me however is the very idea that she ran back inside knowing full well that a gunman had just been shootting from an upper floor and one big clue towards credibility comes in the what she claims to have done next.
Instead of warning people that there was a madman still in the building who could be coming this way any second she instead claims she simply spread gossip to the first person she spoke to, she just tells him the president's been shot but "Maybe they didn't hit him".
Sure she did and most likley, what the bloke mumbled back was,
"Oh, you mean that guy on the sixth floor with the bald patch scoffing dem chicken wings?".

I don't see it, sorry.

Is there any chance that the white Tshirt description of hers comes from another source entirely, perhaps the media?

[David Josephs]

Sean's research seems to me to have very little to do with Prayerman and certainly won't crumble if it turns out he's not Oswald.

The bulk of the discussion on RKC regarding this topic is about what the witnesses said and who is it we should trust(because they cannot all be straight(what's new?)). Truly, Baker, BWF, Shelley and others are all being stylishly picked apart.
Although I may have dismissed Reid a little prematurely it wasn't due to ignorance but rather, purely as a result of familiarity with witnesses' claims on top of recent refresher research and there is a pattern in what she said that we see quite often especially amongst the better known ones and it does not match what we are seeing in, in this instance, Darnell and Couch's footage.

It's entirely possible however that just like the woman seen above in Darnell(could it actually be her?), Reid did in fact look up at the windows for some reason before heading back inside and since there is evidence that Jarman would be quite easy to spot even from that part of the street, that too wouldn't be even worth doubting.
What is highly suspect to me however is the very idea that she ran back inside knowing full well that a gunman had just been shootting from an upper floor and one big clue towards credibility comes in the what she claims to have done next.
Instead of warning people that there was a madman still in the building who could be coming this way any second she instead claims she simply spread gossip to the first person she spoke to, she just tells him the president's been shot but "Maybe they didn't hit him".
Sure she did and most likley, what the bloke mumbled back was,
"Oh, you mean that guy on the sixth floor with the bald patch scoffing dem chicken wings?".

I don't see it, sorry.

Is there any chance that the white Tshirt description of hers comes from another source entirely, perhaps the media?

Again Donald? You simply can't let Mrs Reid go, can you?

What is highly suspect to me however is the very idea that she ran back inside knowing full well that a gunman had just been shootting from an upper floor and one big clue towards credibility comes in the what she claims to have done next.
Instead of warning people that there was a madman still in the building who could be coming this way any second she instead claims she simply spread gossip to the first person she spoke to, she just tells him the president's been shot but "Maybe they didn't hit him".

Your 20/20 hindsight is perfect Donald... too bad you weren't there to warn everyone.

That you keep condemning this woman for doing exactly as everyone else in front of the TSBD was doing (either to the RR yard or back inside) is puzzling me.

Your supposition seems to be that she believed she was going TOWARD the shooters location, KNEW the shooter(s) were in the building and DIDN'T tell anyone... maybe she just believed what she saw and what Campbell tells her?

Mrs. REID. And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Oh, my goodness, I am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like they came just so directly over my head, and then I looked up in the windows, and saw three colored boys up there, I only recognized one because I didn't know the rest of them so well.
<snip>
Mr. BELIN. Before you turned and went back into the building did you---did Mr. Campbell say anything to you?
Mrs. REID. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area down this way," and that was the last I said to him.
Mr. BELIN. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he pointing?
Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing?
Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.



I gather you feel the same way about Norman/Jarman/Williams who, knowing a shot was fired from just 10 feet from their heads, decide not only NOT to yell out the windows where they are sitting - not one of them - but to sit there as 2 more shots are fired, supposedly - and then run to the WEST END of the 5th floor.

How about any number of witnesses who both assumed a shot from the TSBD and neither say anything about it WHILE running back into the building....?

What it appears you are doing is PROVING the shots could not have come from the TSBD... is THAT the point Don? If it is, I'm right with you..

Yet back to the thread.... We can agree that PM has some sort of shirt on over the white T... and that this is NOT the same person Reid saw.

Can we agree that Carolyn Arnold says she saw OSWALD by the front door around 12:15

Can we agree that a soda bottle APPEARS to be resting in that same corner on the steps - and this may not be the same things that are in Johnson's hands in the Allen photos out front?

Not a single person ever says they saw OSWALD as they retunred to the TSBD thru the front door... not even years later in an attempt to show the standard, "I did not see OSWALD" line in the reports was just that, boilerplate...
One would have expected someone to have said they saw Oswald on those steps - or if they did and were "corrected" they've never said anything about it.

COULD be why the FBI was so concerned about the Lovelady image... ?? (Just thinking aloud)...

[David Josephs]

This is Prayer Man. The still is from the Darnell-film, taken moments after the fatal shots, just before officer Marrion Baker runs into the TSBD. Prayer Man seems to be holding something.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5550[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]5551[/ATTACH]

CE 150, the shirt Oswald was wearing at work, seems to match the Prayer Man shirt.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5552[/ATTACH]


From the Fritz-notes:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5553[/ATTACH]

"claims 2nd floor coke when off came in to 1st fl had lunch out whith Bill Shelley in front"
The extra space between between the words "coke" and "when" indicate the beginning of a new sentence (Fritz doesn't use punctuation).
So it reads: "When officer came in to first floor I was having lunch out with Bill Shelley in front"

Hey there Ivan...

I started to reread the entire thread here and came across your post, again... yet wanted to comment this time.

CE150 was NOT the shirt Oswald wore to work... if it was, then it could not be the same shirt he was arrested in...
I believe it was CE151, the button down Briarloom, that he wore to work... EVERY telling of the interrogation has OSWALD changing his shirt and pants when he gets home...

The WORK SHIRT is not the same as the ARREST SHIRT... in fact, the Briarloom shirt is listed on the DPD to FBI inventory forms just after #455. and is the ONLY other long sleeve shirt of OSWALD's in evidence.
It appears at the end of the STOVALL inventory from Beckley with the GREY WORK PANTS he also wore and listed just under the shirt.

This is the same point of discussion I had with Fetzer about his Doorman is Oswald fiasco. On both Fritz's notes pages 1 and 2 can we find mention of the change of clothes, and in the reports of Kelley, Holmes and Bookout.
(althought in the notes the shirt is called "red" - so again, IF CE150 was worn to work, it should have been found at Beckley... we KNOW he was wearing CE150 when arrested.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5597[/ATTACH]


The other point I'd like to address is the interpretation of the notes... "out with Bill Shelley in front" is an entirely new sentence and thought..

Maybe this could be a take on how it reads? So that it suggests he SAID he went out front AT SOME POINT and was standing by Shelley.

Have we identified SHELLEY in any of the TSBD photos? If so, please post... thanks
DJ

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5598[/ATTACH]