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Quote:Until you can accurately and reliably tell us what the PLAN was in the minds of those who drafted it
JAN 1960: The CIA sets up a Task Force WH-4, Branch 4 of the Western Hemisphere Division to implement President Eisenhower's request for an ambitious covert program to overthrow the Castro government. Jacob Esterline, Guatemala station chief between 1954-1957, is put in charge of WH-4. (Wyden, pp.2-?29; Gleijeses, p.3; Taylor Report, pp.3-4)
I suppose you your question should be directed to President Eisenhower who is after all the one who asked the CIA in a sense to draw up the Bay of Pigs, this was NOT all CIA's plans.
Kennedy said that under any circumstance there would be NO American military intervention, however, under Kennedy's administration American military pilots were used to bomb Cuba.
JAN 12, 1960: Throughout the month of January, sabotage and small bombing missions in Cuba increase in frequency. A plane drops incendiary bombs in the areas of Bainoa, Caraballo, and San Antonio de Rio Blanco. Another plane coming from the north, with U.S. markings, drops inflammable material on cane fields next to the Hershey factory. (Informe Especial. 1960) JAN 18, 1960: A plane drops live phosphorous over the cane plantations of Quemados de Guines and Rancho Veloz, in Las Villas. Seven people are detained in Sagua la Grande for trying to derail the Sagua?Havana train. (Informe Especial: 1960) JAN 21, 1960: A plane drops four one-hundred pound bombs on the urban district of Cojimar y Regla in Havana. (Informe Especial: 1960).
JAN 7, 1959: Washington officially recognizes the new government; in a memo to the President, John Foster Dulles states, "The Provisional Government appears free from Communist taint and there are indications that it intends to pursue friendly relations with the United States." Early the next day, Castro's victory caravan finally reaches Havana, and the new regime takes charge.
APR 19, 1959: During Fidel Castro's first post revolution trip to Washington, he meets with Vice President Richard Nixon for three and a half hours. "I spent as much time as I could trying to emphasize that he had the great gift of leadership, but that it was the responsibility of a leader not always to follow public opinion but to help to direct it in proper channels, not to give the people what they think they want at a time of emotional stress but to make them want what they ought to have," the Vice President reports in a four-page secret memo to Eisenhower, Secretary of State Christian A. Herter, and Allen Dulles. "It was apparent that while he paid lip service to such institutions as freedom of speech, press and religion that his primary concern was with developing programs for economic progress." Nixon concludes that Castro is "either incredibly naive about Communism or is under Communist discipline." But he also expresses his own "appraisal" of Castro as a man. "The one fact we can be sure of, is that he has those indefinable qualities which make him a leader of men. Whatever we may think of him, he is going to be a great factor in the development of Cuba and very possibly in the development of Latin American affairs generally." (Richard M. Nixon, Rough Draft of Summary of Conversation Between the Vice President and Fidel Castro, April 25, 1959).
So, when you say "Until you can accurately and reliably tell us what the PLAN was in the minds of those who drafted it". And, you call me (naive and misinformed)? Am I suppose to be a MIND READER?
I agree that respect is important when many here have been studying covert operations for 15-20 years of their life, but on the other hand shouldn't respect also be earned? Long before many here were studying it my father was involve in it.
My mother's first hand knowledge to what she knows has never been disclosed to the FBI even when she was hounded by them after the death of my father. The FBI and the CIA both would relentlessly call her at her job, come over to our house in Hialeah, and asked her many times to come down to the FBI station where she faithfully remained quite due to her concerns of herself and her children, my mother has simply had a life of not being able to trust anyone, perhaps, it may be the reason she has commitment problems, and now that I found my father's information in my mother's hope chest six years ago, she is ready to tell all.
And, you say that I need to research this and that because I don't understand your philosophy? Are you serious?
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Quote: So, when you say "Until you can accurately and reliably tell us what the PLAN was in the minds of those who drafted it". And, you call me (naive and misinformed)? Am I suppose to be a MIND READER?
All I can say out loud here is "wow... just wow." The POINT is that you are not a mind reader at all yet you post with such a definitive position one MUST make the assumption that you can and do read minds, both past and present.... while only offering the words of our gov't leaders as supporting evidence.
That you connect the Objective of the BOP Plan as it was executed, to the desire to rid the Western Hemisphere of Communism is, well, a shock Scott and as I said very naive.
Quote: And, you say that I need to research this and that because I don't understand your philosophy? Are you serious?
My philosophy? huh? You need to research this Scott because you actually believe that the BOP was ultimately a plan against Communism... it may have started that way as the impetus of the idea... but what occurred in those April days had little if anything to do with defeating Castro... and everyone knew it but the Executive Branch...
Maybe answer this Scott... if this was that obvious and direct an objective - remove the specter of communism from 90 miles away - why was your father and mother hounded and hunted when there were no ulterior motives? We they a threat to the USA's ability to fight Communism?
Posting the "facts as the media gave them to us" is akin to telling me that 911 was Saddam's doing, which is what the PR agency was paid to convince America... at one point over 90% of Americans believed Saddam was involved in 911....
The KGB and Fidel Castro were two entities the CIA simply could not crack...
Another thought. Only 5 years later the ex-VP was now the most powerful man on the planet... and still no real interest or luck in Cuba...
If BOP was initially shepparded along by Nixon... and Communism was still only 90 miles away in 1963,4,5,6,7,8....
Why all the focus on SE Asia....? y'know other than the massive amount of drug money, the ousting of the French/Corsican drug mobs, the HUGE expenditure of military hardware, and the complete disregard for US citizen's rights and privacy...
No Scott... BOP was designed, at the time of its execution, to embarrass JFK into action or into non-action. Either way the cabal wins...
Ridding the Western Hemisphere of Communism,or the world for that matter is a joke being played upon us to misdirect the bewildered herds into thinking we are actually doing something in that area, much like drugs and poverty... lip service. When Communism finally does implode upon itself due to nothing more than expenses... the bogeyman became TERRORISM.... the never ending cycle of "hot spots", while the military budget grows yet drugs and poverty, civil rights, human rights and privacy and the middle class have eroded away to nothing.
Scott... I have nothing against you or your family... but please don't preach to those who have spent decades studying the topic, that what we see and and what we are told via "government documents" is really how it is, was or ever will be... even more so if related to CIA, ONI, MID, MIA, SIS, etc, etc, etc.....
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
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Quote:Another thought. Only 5 years later the ex-VP was now the most powerful man on the planet... and still no real interest or luck in Cuba...
If BOP was initially shepparded along by Nixon... and Communism was still only 90 miles away in 1963,4,5,6,7,8....
The whole get-Castro thing disappeared as an American security-state priority with JFK's death.
My best guess is that the Kennedy assassination convinced Castro to run his boutique drug smuggling business thru the Bush/Walker/Harriman entity Zapata Off-Shore.
Castro woke up on 11/22/63 with Kennedy's head in his bed.
Message received, deals made, pressure off...
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Plus, the US made deals with Cuba and Russia over Castro. If the US broke them the Soviets might feel inclined to save face by retaliating in Europe.
In my mind the US countered the communists stepping right on to the US's doorstep in Cuba by stepping on to their doorstep in Southeast Asia and having a showdown. Cuba was right under the US. Viet Nam was right under the Chinese and Russians. In their minds Kennedy had to be pushed aside because he failed to see this imperative and Cold War solution.
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All I can say out loud here is "wow... just wow." The POINT is that you are not a mind reader at all yet you post with such a definitive position one MUST make the assumption that you can and do read minds, both past and present.... while only offering the words of our gov't leaders as supporting evidence.
das ist eine gute ein!
That you connect the Objective of the BOP Plan as it was executed, to the desire to rid the Western Hemisphere of Communism is, well, a shock Scott and as I said very naive.
No, not me, the plan to rid communism from the Western Hemisphere was pushed by our 34[SUP]th[/SUP] president Dwight David "Ike" Eisenhower and company. There is nothing naive about that at all.
My philosophy? huh? You need to research this Scott because you actually believe that the BOP was ultimately a plan against Communism... it may have started that way as the impetus of the idea... but what occurred in those April days had little if anything to do with defeating Castro... and everyone knew it but the Executive Branch...
Ja, ich weiß, oder sollte ich sagen, ich weiß nichts, und Sie wissen es alle, oder?
Maybe answer this Scott... if this was that obvious and direct an objective - remove the specter of communism from 90 miles away - why was your father and mother hounded and hunted when there were no ulterior motives? We they a threat to the USA's ability to fight Communism?
My parents had nothing to do with the BOP, how could you remove "the specter of communism" when that was the problem in the first place? My mother as you say, didn't become "hounded" until after the death of my father, it appears that both three letter agencies wanted to know what my father's relationship with Sturgis was, as if they already didn't know. What they really wanted to know is if my mother knew about the photo's my father stole which my mother remained faithfully quite about for more than 35 years, and only now she's telling all because I decided to write my book. In-fact it took a few years before my mother would open up to me about the information my father processed this is not something that just happened over night. I don't understand why you're asking about my parents when you know nothing about them.
Posting the "facts as the media gave them to us" is akin to telling me that 911 was Saddam's doing, which is what the PR agency was paid to convince America... at one point over 90% of Americans believed Saddam was involved in 911....
Sorry, but, I'm apart of that 10% according to your statistics that believes Bin Laden is the one responsible not Saddam.
The KGB and Fidel Castro were two entities the CIA simply could not crack...
Could you please tell me how you have arrived at this conclusion?
Another thought. Only 5 years later the ex-VP was now the most powerful man on the planet... and still no real interest or luck in Cuba...
If BOP was initially shepparded along by Nixon... and Communism was still only 90 miles away in 1963,4,5,6,7,8....
I'm willing to bet that you don't even know why Watergate happened? Did you know that it was Nixon that shut down the CIA in Moa Cuba? Did you know that their were thirty remaining frogmen stationed there and Eugenio Rolando Martinez was one of them? Did you know that Mr. Martinez was also one of the burglars that wanted Nixon (out of office)? I see there is a lot that you do not know.
Why all the focus on SE Asia....? y'know other than the massive amount of drug money, the ousting of the French/Corsican drug mobs, the HUGE expenditure of military hardware, and the complete disregard for US citizen's rights and privacy...
Did you know that folks like Frank Lucas and the drug lords of this country used our government to import the drugs supplied? Read Barry and the Boys.
No Scott... BOP was designed, at the time of its execution, to embarrass JFK into action or into non-action. Either way the cabal wins...
Okay, wenn du es sagst.
Ridding the Western Hemisphere of Communism,or the world for that matter is a joke being played upon us to misdirect the bewildered herds into thinking we are actually doing something in that area, much like drugs and poverty... lip service. When Communism finally does implode upon itself due to nothing more than expenses... the bogeyman became TERRORISM.... the never ending cycle of "hot spots", while the military budget grows yet drugs and poverty, civil rights, human rights and privacy and the middle class have eroded away to nothing.
WTH are you talking about?
Scott... I have nothing against you or your family... but please don't preach to those who have spent decades studying the topic, that what we see and and what we are told via "government documents" is really how it is, was or ever will be... even more so if related to CIA, ONI, MID, MIA, SIS, etc, etc, etc.....
Ditto! He who has an ear, let him hear, I did not come here to teach or preach you anything, old dogs can not be taught new tricks, as I said, long before you were studying this my father was involved.
Habba good day!
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All I can say out loud here is "wow... just wow." The POINT is that you are not a mind reader at all yet you post with such a definitive position one MUST make the assumption that you can and do read minds, both past and present.... while only offering the words of our gov't leaders as supporting evidence.
das ist eine gute ein!
A good one indeed Scott.... As I read thru this post of yours... it is painfully obvious that you will believe most anything the powers that be tell you... Ever hear of Operation Mockingbird and before that (early 1900's) the CFR group buying up all the major newspapers so the content could be controlled... GE was a huge owner of media
http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6
Maybe you've heard of the Military Industrial (Congressional) Complex? and who owned and dictated policy to these "news" outlets?
(Operation Mockingbird was a secret campaign by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to influence media. Begun in the 1950s, it was initially organized by Cord Meyer and Allen W. Dulles, it was later led by Frank Wisner after Dulles became the head of the CIA. The organization recruited leading American journalists into a network to help present the CIA's views, and funded some student and cultural organizations, and magazines as fronts. As it developed, it also worked to influence foreign media and political campaigns, in addition to activities by other operating units of the CIA.)
That you connect the Objective of the BOP Plan as it was executed, to the desire to rid the Western Hemisphere of Communism is, well, a shock Scott and as I said very naive.
No, not me, the plan to rid communism from the Western Hemisphere was pushed by our 34[SUP]th[/SUP] president Dwight David "Ike" Eisenhower and company. There is nothing naive about that at all.
Now that IS a joke, right Scott? The plan for the MICC in the Western Hemisphere was to OWN ALL OF IT.... Communism, like "terrorism" was a rally call and justification for the US back atrocities perpetrated on the people of Latin and South America... Nope, nothing naive at all... You've heard of the FBI's SIS, United Fruit, and the Nelson Rockefeller run OCIAA.. Mon dieu : :
My philosophy? huh? You need to research this Scott because you actually believe that the BOP was ultimately a plan against Communism... it may have started that way as the impetus of the idea... but what occurred in those April days had little if anything to do with defeating Castro... and everyone knew it but the Executive Branch...
Ja, ich weiß, oder sollte ich sagen, ich weiß nichts, und Sie wissen es alle, oder?
So if you know this, why do you continue to argue against it? I ask again Scott, given what you know of the BOP, what parts of the plan were designed to Succeed? The landing, the uprising, the guerilla tactics, the air support, Bundy calling it off, what?
Maybe answer this Scott... if this was that obvious and direct an objective - remove the specter of communism from 90 miles away - why was your father and mother hounded and hunted when there were no ulterior motives? We they a threat to the USA's ability to fight Communism?
My parents had nothing to do with the BOP, how could you remove "the specter of communism" when that was the problem in the first place? My mother as you say, didn't become "hounded" until after the death of my father, it appears that both three letter agencies wanted to know what my father's relationship with Sturgis was, as if they already didn't know. What they really wanted to know is if my mother knew about the photo's my father stole which my mother remained faithfully quite about for more than 35 years, and only now she's telling all because I decided to write my book. In-fact it took a few years before my mother would open up to me about the information my father processed this is not something that just happened over night. I don't understand why you're asking about my parents when you know nothing about them.
My bad then Scott... I apologize if I offended you... In terms of removing the specter of communism... the CIA wanted to replace Castro with another Batista and reinstall the Mob, ITT, ATT and any other MICC entity that wanted to rape that island's resources... Communism was the excuse... Why are we never outraged by dictators who buy our products and give us their resources?
Posting the "facts as the media gave them to us" is akin to telling me that 911 was Saddam's doing, which is what the PR agency was paid to convince America... at one point over 90% of Americans believed Saddam was involved in 911....
Sorry, but, I'm apart of that 10% according to your statistics that believes Bin Laden is the one responsible not Saddam.
You've really go to be effing kidding me here Scott... Bin Laden?
So he arranged for the white vans to show up between 3am and 6am and bring who knows what into the building... he gets the VP to move all the NE corridor air protection out of the way?
He has access to directed nuclear devices and the ability to plant them at the based of the core coloumns...
There are 7000 entries in this timeline - I've been thru the main timeline twice and a number of related/linked subjects many times... "Able Danger" ring a bell? Did Bin Laden put a stop to that as well? http://www.historycommons.org/project.js...11_project
On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, (202)
324-3000, to learn why Bin Laden's Most Wanted poster did not indicate that
Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11. The Muckraker Report spoke with
Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is
no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, "The reason
why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the
FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11."
The KGB and Fidel Castro were two entities the CIA simply could not crack...
Could you please tell me how you have arrived at this conclusion?
Oh Scott... Do a little research before you post these questions of yours.... please. Or give us a few example of why I am wrong...
Another thought. Only 5 years later the ex-VP was now the most powerful man on the planet... and still no real interest or luck in Cuba...
If BOP was initially shepparded along by Nixon... and Communism was still only 90 miles away in 1963,4,5,6,7,8....
I'm willing to bet that you don't even know why Watergate happened? Did you know that it was Nixon that shut down the CIA in Moa Cuba? Did you know that their were thirty remaining frogmen stationed there and Eugenio Rolando Martinez was one of them? Did you know that Mr. Martinez was also one of the burglars that wanted Nixon (out of office)? I see there is a lot that you do not know.
You mean why McCord decided to leave the tape over the door, so once again a CIA action was designed to fail in order to take down the POTUS? Or why Hunt left breadcrumbs or why the same small group of JFK yahoos were playing the same games? Keep underestimating me Scott... The same type of completely controllable VP takes office in both cases... Helms didn't control these presidents, neither did Dulles... so why not tell us who you think was behind these activities, the SPONSORS and why, instead of talking to us about the Facilitators and Mechanics?
Why all the focus on SE Asia....? y'know other than the massive amount of drug money, the ousting of the French/Corsican drug mobs, the HUGE expenditure of military hardware, and the complete disregard for US citizen's rights and privacy...
Did you know that folks like Frank Lucas and the drug lords of this country used our government to import the drugs supplied? Read Barry and the Boys.
They USED our government? They WERE/ARE our government. But without Nixon's DEA and the all out war to replace the existing drug trade ownership with our own... and the creation of crack... oh nevermind SCott... none of this is new and only supports why I keep asking you why you think thos coverups are any different from the "War on Communism"
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POL...A/mena.php
This area of the website has been assembled in response to the persistent claims of a few individuals that Mena is a myth, that the CIA never ran cocaine through the Mena airport, or laundered the proceeds through various Arkansas financial institutions including Morgan Guarantee, Madison S&L, Worthen Bank, and most importantly, the Arkansas Development Finance Authority. That such activities took place at Mena (among other locations) should hardly be surprising, as a read through most newspapers shows that government connections to drug running are not only commonplace, they have become the inevitable symptom of these totally corrupted times.
No Scott... BOP was designed, at the time of its execution, to embarrass JFK into action or into non-action. Either way the cabal wins...
Okay, wenn du es sagst.
Darn right I say so... all you've offered are the pat cover-up lines... When and how were they going to "Go Guerilla" again and why was part of the "successful plan" only spouoted from the mouths of the CIA, specifically Dulles to the NSC and JCS.
Ridding the Western Hemisphere of Communism,or the world for that matter is a joke being played upon us to misdirect the bewildered herds into thinking we are actually doing something in that area, much like drugs and poverty... lip service. When Communism finally does implode upon itself due to nothing more than expenses... the bogeyman became TERRORISM.... the never ending cycle of "hot spots", while the military budget grows yet drugs and poverty, civil rights, human rights and privacy and the middle class have eroded away to nothing.
WTH are you talking about?
Exactly Scott... when you finally figure it out... that NOTHING you are told has anything to do with how things are run or why... maybe you wont need to ask.
Ever hear of AMERICANS for PROSPERITY? and the unbelieveably terrible direction they are trying to take this country in the name of "less government interference"...
G~d already... are you truly this unaware of the reality in this world?
Freedom Partners is structured as a chamber of commerce and is composed of around 200 members, each paying a minimum US$100,000 in annual dues. In 2012, the organization raised $256 million.[SUP][size=12][4][/SUP]The organization, which has ties with the Koch Brothers,[SUP][5][/SUP] awards grants to advocacy organizations with the goal of raising public awareness about "important societal and economic issues".[SUP][3][/SUP] Freedom Partners gave grants worth a total of $236 million to conservative organizations including Tea Party groups like the Tea Party Patriots and organizations which opposed the Affordable Care Act prior to the 2012 election. A majority of Freedom Partners board is made up of long time employees of the Koch brothers.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8][/SUP] In 2012, Freedom Partners made a grant of $115 million to the Center to Protect Patient Rights.[SUP][1][/SUP]
[/SIZE]
Scott... I have nothing against you or your family... but please don't preach to those who have spent decades studying the topic, that what we see and and what we are told via "government documents" is really how it is, was or ever will be... even more so if related to CIA, ONI, MID, MIA, SIS, etc, etc, etc.....
Ditto! He who has an ear, let him hear, I did not come here to teach or preach you anything, old dogs can not be taught new tricks, as I said, long before you were studying this my father was involved.
I beg to differ Scott... you came here and started a thread about "the truth and bare FACTS about the BOP" and then proceed to tell us the "official" story as if it was really what happened and why.As your father was involved with these characters and found himself in what must have been a very difficult situation, I applaud his courage... that has nothing to do with a belief that the BOP was part of any real war on Communism... or that is was not designed to fail in it's OVERT objective with COVERT ones working extremely well.
I am neither old or a dog. I am fully able to learn new tricks, as well as calling out the old ones for the BS they are... Packaging "government speak" as fact is not going to be met with silence, at least not while I have the opportunity to hold those who try it to a high level of evidentiary expectation.
You have offered little if anything to prove that the BOP plan was designed to succeed in its overt objective... while every bit of history shows it succeeded very well in embarassing JFK, causing more problems and tensions between USA/USSR and leading to the Cuban Missle Crisis.
Let me ask you this... If we went in ala Putin's Crimea move and simply took over... you really thing the USSR would have done a thing when the KGB and Russian Military was doing the same thing in their backyard? The double standard here is amazing... WE had hundreds of Nukes pointed at the USSR from as close as next door... the Cold War made Trillions of $$$ and continues to, only we don't call it the Cold War anymore... the Cabal call's it the "War on Terror" and it will last longer than the Roman Empire.
Habba good day!
You too Scott... and I truly wish you success with your book and your family's story... We are all victums and I applaud your willingness to put it out there. Almost no one has ever heard of the SIS or what they did.. and in turn why it was necessary for the "United Fruit" cabal to remove Hoover from the Americas to be replaced by Military Intelligence.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
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Mr. Josephs,
Why is it so hard to explain things to you? Why is it when I ask a question you answer it with a question? Why is it when I ask for a simple answer as to how you have concluded a ridiculously theory of yours you can't answer? I don't get it.
Who was James McCord working for? Wasn't he a former CIA agent, later involved, as an electronics expert? Everyone one in that operation was a specialist hired to do something Mr. Gonzalez was a locksmith, Mr. Martinez like to take photos, my father was an exceptional thief, Frank, well Frank, I'm not sure what he was good for other than being a pain in the ass.
Although, this was a CIA set up to have Nixon removed from office, my father after finding out what the true plan was for Watergate didn't want to have anything to do with it because it was a political movement that was designed to have Nixon remove, but why? Well, for starters the two assassination attempts the CIA planned to take out Nixon didn't work, why? Because my father went to the FBI.
That tape on the door wasn't the only thing, the doors were left unlock, the radios were cut off to maintain silence, and McCord set the whole thing up so the burglars would get caught in order to tie them into Nixon. Trust me, this is not my first rodeo.
There were in-fact six burglars involved in Watergate, and for over 42 years no one ever knew it was my father. Although, my father worked with folks involved in the CIA my father didn't trust anyone, in a letter of his spells it out and says there were to many folks running around Miami CIA, FBI, informants, Castro's G-2 men that my father really didn't know "who was who".
All the rest of your post I've tried reading with an open mind, but I can't stop myself from laughing. It really hurts my stomach that much.
How about we just say that I would like to gracefully bow out of this debate with you, and call you the winner of our discussion to keep either one of us from further embarrassment deal?
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It's truly sad that you feel this is about winning and losing.... I've offered links and docs to the tips of the icebergs that are political/social/economic conspiracy throughout history....
The pattern is repeated over and over since mankind simply does not learn from its history.
Your assuming other people here do not know anything about history appears to me as the real problem, second only to your deep rooted belief that what we see is how it was/is.
I learned LONG ago that whatever is offered as the "explanation", especially in politics or intelligence is usually as far the reality of the purposes and objectives involved as can be.
The world of Counter Intelligence was deisgned to confuse those outside looking in... or make the explanations so reasonable and acceptable that they are regarded as the revealed truths.
In nearly every case I've studied regardling the workings of the SPONSORS - those who remain nameless or those so large and whose names are so well regarded that belief in their guilt - is ridiculed (Illuminate=UFOs)
Of course Watergate was not what it seemed to be... and it was not what the 1st, 2nd or even 50th layer of the onion revealed. That you obviously know this and yet cannot then apply that same understanding to other historical events like this thread's BOP explanation is what puzzles me most.
Everything offered here is for the collective intelligence of those interested in compiling them and giving them deep thought. Of determining cause and effect and in the hopes of being able to improve the human condition...
The pursuit of this knowledge led me back to the origins of ownership, societal purpose, and on thru history to find that our country's situation is a direct result of the influence of English Banking and the NEED for a centralized banking system...
Hamilton and Burr - while Hamilton was pushing for a "Federal Banking System" via his own banking interests Burr and ultimately the Rockefellers had other ideas:
Chase traces its history back to the founding of The Manhattan Company by Aaron Burr on September 1, 1799, in a house at 40 Wall Street:
After an epidemic of yellow fever in 1798, during which coffins had been sold by itinerant vendors on street corners, Aaron Burr established the Manhattan Company,
with the ostensible aim of bringing clean water to the city from the Bronx River but in fact designed as a front for the creation of New York's second bank, rivaling Alexander Hamilton's Bank of New York.
The Economist
Scott, I have focused on studying the history of wealth, power, politics and conspiracy... "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
This is the man tha put Nelson R in charge of central and south American "cultural" relations, who put Donovan in charge of the OSS, who was directly connected to the elite of this country who ultimately gave "the people" as much distraction as possible while his SPONSORS bought up America. That you bring to this thread the belief that "the BOP was not designed to fail in its overt objective" is, aftera ll this, still naive.
If you would apply your deep watergate understanding to the BOP situation, I am sure the deep politics of the situation will become more and more clear to you.
Scott - I am truly sorry that I cannot express myself as clearly as I'd like in regards to the massive amount of evidence there is for conspiracy of purpose at every turn... in most every human heart... in most every human action...
all that differs is the magnitude... The "Tragedy of the Commons" is a concept used against us... if we are TOLD that any specific action is for the collective good of the "people" yet repeatedly we dfind that those telling us are in fact trying to usurp all the resources for themselves...
When are we going to learn and do something about it?
https://archive.org/details/TheDeclarati...dependence read aloud by JFK
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
The vehicle for changing this country's (or any sovereign nation - another interesting concept, what constitutes sovereignty) methods of leadership are included as a DIRECTIVE in our own Declaration Independence... The Founding Father's anticipated problems of the sort that now run our country... that ran the country within minutes of its birth... So yes Scott, I get a bit sideways when I am told in no uncertain terms that the BOP was about Communism... it was about economics and power... and you will find if you take the time to look, that most every action since the dawn of time is undertaken for those purposes.. and not the altruistic ones we are lead to believe...
2500 years ago Plato forwarns us about the nature of man... 5000 years ago the Hebrews and other slaves of the world experienced it... at least THEN slaves knew they were slaves...
Today? People are too busy watching Duck Dynasty and Dancing with the Stars to lift their heads up and take notice of their own comfortable slavery....
DJ
(btw Scott... while I write this to you, it is not only directed at you... there are MANY who over the years on these forums I've come to call friends and have enjoyed this type of interchange of ideas. When you put forth ideas backed by sound logic and evidence I will be the first to incorporate them into my understanding... in THIS CASE, the BOP, I feel you do not make your case. In terms of Watrergate, I am all ears... Nixon was creating his own inteligence apparatus. He, like JFK, was end-running the real power of this world. The CIA is just the guard dog. There is no "CIA" in the Military Industrial Congressional Complex... but you can be rest assured the MICC is holding the CIA leash, doesn't mean the dog never bites its master's hand and has to be punished from time to time.)
Profit: to gain an advantage or benefit
John Jay, the president of the ­ Continental Congress, thenfirst Chief Justice of the Supreme Court,and as he put it, "those who own the country ought to govern it".
Martin Wolf (one of the finest financial minds of the times)of the Financial Times. He writes that the "out-of-control financialsector is eating out the modern market economy from the inside, just as thelarva of the spider wasp eats out the host in which it has been laid".
http://www.alternet.org/visions/chomsky-us-poses-number-threats-future-humanity-our-youll-never-hear-about-it-our-free-press?page=0%2C4
"Every transaction has impacts on others which just aren'ttaken into account in a market transaction. Systemic risk is a big one."(Chomsky)
Garrett James Hardin (April 21, 1915 September 14, 2003)was an American ecologist who warned of the dangers of overpopulation. Hisexposition of the tragedy of the commons, in a 1968 paper,[1] called attentionto "the damage that innocent actions by individuals can inflict on theenvironment".[2] He is also known for Hardin's First Law of Human Ecology:"You cannot do only one thing", which expresses theinterconnectedness of every action.[3][
"tragedy of the commons" (Hardin)
The rebuttal to the invisible hand in population control isto be found in a scenario first sketched in a little-known pamphlet (6) in 1833by a mathematical amateur named William Forster Lloyd (1794-1852). We may wellcall it "the tragedy of the commons," using the word"tragedy" as the philosopher Whitehead used it (7): "The essenceof dramatic tragedy is not unhappiness. It resides in the solemnity of theremorseless working of things." He then goes on to say, "Thisinevitableness of destiny can only be illustrated in terms of human life byincidents which in fact involve unhappiness. For it is only by them that thefutility of escape can be made evident in the drama." http://www.sciencemag.org/content/162/3859/1243.full
Educationcan counteract the natural tendency to do the wrong thing, but the inexorablesuccession of generations requires that the basis for this knowledge beconstantly refreshed.
Unenlightened self-interest
In contrast to enlightened self-interest is simple greed or the conceptof "unenlightened self-interest," in which it is argued that whenmost or all persons act according to their own myopic selfishness, that thegroup suffers loss as a result of conflict, decreased efficiency andproductivity because of lack of cooperation, and the increased expense eachindividual pays for the protection of their own interests. If a typicalindividual in such a group is selected at random, it is not likely that thisperson will profit from such a group ethic.
Someindividuals might profit, in a material sense, from a philosophy ofgreed, but it is believed by proponents of enlightened self-interest that theseindividuals constitute a small minority and that the large majority of personscan expect to experience a net personal loss from a philosophy of simpleunenlightened selfishness.
Unenlightened self-interest can result in the tragedy of the commons.
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Plato 425bc
According to this model, the principles of Athenian democracy (as itexisted in his day) are rejected as only a few are fit to rule. Instead ofrhetoric and persuasion, Plato says reason and wisdom should govern. As Platoputs it:
"Until philosophers rule askings or those who are now called kings and leading men genuinely andadequately philosophize, that is, until political power and philosophy entirelycoincide, while the many natures who at present pursue either one exclusivelyare forcibly prevented from doing so, cities will have no rest from evils,...nor, I think, will the human race." (Republic 473c-d)
Oligarchy is made up of asociety in which wealth is the criterion of merit and the wealthy are incontrol. In democracy, the state bears resemblance to ancient Athens withtraits such as equality of political opportunity and freedom for the individualto do as he likes. Democracy then degenerates into tyranny from the conflict ofrich and poor. It is characterized by an undisciplined society existing inchaos, where the tyrant rises as popular champion leading to the formation ofhis private army and the growth of oppression
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Aristotle b. 384bc
The AIM of Man
Now, as there are many actions, arts, and sciences, their ends also aremany; the end of the medical art is health, that of shipbuilding a vessel, thatof strategy victory, that of economics wealth.
If, then, there is some end of the things we do, which we desire forits own sake (everything else being desired for the sake of this), and if we donot choose everything for the sake of something else (for at that rate theprocess would go on to infinity, so that our desire would be empty and vain),clearly this must be the good and the chief good. Will not the knowledge of it,then, have a great influence on life? Shall we not, like archers who have amark to aim at, be more likely to hit upon what is right?
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
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I'm not trying to throw fuel on the fire here, but isn't the "struggle between capitalism and communism" by definition a "struggle of economics and power"? It doesn't add anything to argue the distinction (if there is one).
Naturally individuals who own property and wealth will favor capitalism, and freed serfs will favor communism, because both of those choices maximize their access to resources. The alternative system threatens to deprive them. There is a "tragedy of the commons" in both systems.
As far as the Bay of Pigs goes, it appears to me that, whether or not it was "designed" to fail, that it actually came fairly close to a "military success" (I'm not saying that the overall political system in Cuba would have changed). If the Cuban footsoldiers on the ground had secured the radio stations like they were supposed to, there wouldn't have been a coordinated dawn airstrike the next morning, that disabled the Barbara and deprived the surviving soldiers of much of thier supplies. If the 30 Cuban footsoldiers that were parachuted into the jungle had been able to find thier supplies and secure the road to the plantation, the Cuban response wouldn't have had a convenient staging area. The greatest visible single deficit of the military plan was failing to account for the coral reefs and the tides, so that the fiberglass landing boats were damaged. Ask any soldier: a military "plan" doesn't survive contact with the enemy.
I feel quite certain that the real "plan" at the policy level allowed for both success or failure, and the planners would derive some benefit from either possibility.
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I had a long thought-out answer on how I would want to intelligently respond to Mr. Josephs remarks, I now have no need, Mr. Phipps, did just that.
I whole heartedly agree with Mr. Phipps when he says, "I feel quite certain that the real "plan" at the policy level allowed for both success or failure, and the planners would derive some benefit from either possibility."
I further agree with him when he says, "As far as the Bay of Pigs goes, it appears to me that, whether or not it was "designed" to fail, that it actually came fairly close to a "military success".
I don't believe that a plan is deliberately "designed" by anyone to fail, but in this case, it did.
I also believe, although, a few here may know exactly what I'm talking about, other's would much rather argue the case. And, I get it, but ask yourself, is it worth arguing over something that is really not the case?
I'm not talking about what part of the "plan" could've or would've been successful, that part of the conversation I was dug into. My point has always been that a plan is NOT deliberately "designed" to fail. I truly hope that Mr. Josephs understands what it is I'm trying to say without reverting back into time 5,000 years ago.
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