The truth and bare facts about the Bay of Pigs

[Scott Kaiser]

You're a funny guy, but... You still don't get it, lets try and cut this short before you write a book on this thread, the plan failed, but the "design" was NEVER meant too! Don't expect you to understand it though.

Scott, you have made this assertion many times. However, I fail to see you make your case. This is the difficult part, and there is a big difference between the two. When you come against people like DJ and JimDi who do know how to argue a case, you fall short. I hope your book succeeds at least at formulating the argument you have not been able as yet to do here.

Lauren,

How many times do I need to repeat myself before I'm understood? I'll say it again, the "original DESIGN" was NOT meant for failure. The landing at Trinidad had good port facilities it was closer to many existing counter-revolutionary activities it had an easily defensible beachhead, and it offered an escape route into the Escambray Mountains.

Who knows how it would have turned out had the "PLAN" not been changed, all anyone can do is speculate at best. I said it before, and I'll say it again. For those who just don't understand me. THE DESIGN WAS NEVER MEANT FOR FAILURE, HOWEVER, THE PLAN DID. Did I make my point? Do I really need to provide my closing arguments? Isn't it obvious?

Why is everyone dwelling on what happened and can't understand what could have been? The plan failed, the design did not! There's no falling short here, all you have to do is use your head! Case closed! I win!

[Scott Kaiser]

I really didn't want to have to take it to this point, but you keep pushing me. Perhaps, the grasshopper can teach the teacher.

[Scott Kaiser]

You're a funny guy, but... You still don't get it, lets try and cut this short before you write a book on this thread, the plan failed, but the "design" was NEVER meant too! Don't expect you to understand it though.

Scott, you have made this assertion many times. However, I fail to see you make your case. This is the difficult part, and there is a big difference between the two. When you come against people like DJ and JimDi who do know how to argue a case, you fall short. I hope your book succeeds at least at formulating the argument you have not been able as yet to do here.

Lauren,

How many times do I need to repeat myself before I'm understood? I'll say it again, the "original DESIGN" was NOT meant for failure. The landing at Trinidad had good port facilities it was closer to many existing counter-revolutionary activities it had an easily defensible beachhead, and it offered an escape route into the Escambray Mountains.

Who knows how it would have turned out had the "PLAN" not been changed, all anyone can do is speculate at best. I said it before, and I'll say it again. For those who just don't understand me. THE DESIGN WAS NEVER MEANT FOR FAILURE, HOWEVER, THE PLAN DID. Did I make my point? Do I really need to provide my closing arguments? Isn't it obvious?

Why is everyone dwelling on what happened and can't understand what could have been? The plan failed, the design did not! There's no falling short here, all you have to do is use your head! Case closed! I win!

For those who have a problem understanding, I just want to "quote" what I'm saying above, so this thread can now come to it's proper ending. As for my book Lauren, you can bet there's information, information that not only do I make a good argument of, but I also provide evidence. Thank you!

[Scott Kaiser]

Food for thought! You can say, "The designed plan failed", but you can't say "It was designed for failure", that's incorrect, a lie, and it's not true. <period> Case closed.

[Scott Kaiser]

Just one more thing, I'd like everyone to know, when I'm right about something, I'm not going to back down from it. And, when I'm wrong, I'm MAN enough to admit it, as I have proven so in the past.

Lauren, please don't get me wrong, I'm sure DJ and JimDi, as well as the side line bleachers all mean well, the problem was/is that everyone was so stuck on the now, that they were blinded by what could have been.

Also, when you say stuff like this, "When you come against people like DJ and JimDi who do know how to argue a case, you fall short."

You may know them, but you don't know me, I was born into a family that argued all the time, that's all I know, and so, if I'm right about something you better believe I'm going to find a way to win and there's no doubt about that, but like I said, when I'm wrong, I'll accept it, take it like a man, and tell you I'm wrong.

The problem I've seen here is that, I may be the only man to do so, because I'm willing to bet there's not another man here that's willing to admit when he's wrong.

Never, ever argue with someone who's right about something, especially if all he's known his whole life is how to argue, arguing is not new to me.

And, that's just my two cents.

[Lauren Johnson]

Just one more thing, I'd like everyone to know, when I'm right about something, I'm not going to back down from it. And, when I'm wrong, I'm MAN enough to admit it, as I have proven so in the past.

Lauren, please don't get me wrong, I'm sure DJ and JimDi, as well as the side line bleachers all mean well, the problem was/is that everyone was so stuck on the now, that they were blinded by what could have been.

Also, when you say stuff like this, "When you come against people like DJ and JimDi who do know how to argue a case, you fall short."

You may know them, but you don't know me, I was born into a family that argued all the time, that's all I know, and so, if I'm right about something you better believe I'm going to find a way to win and there's no doubt about that, but like I said, when I'm wrong, I'll accept it, take it like a man, and tell you I'm wrong.

The problem I've seen here is that, I may be the only man to do so, because I'm willing to bet there's not another man here that's willing to admit when he's wrong.

Never, ever argue with someone who's right about something, especially if all he's known his whole life is how to argue, arguing is not new to me.

And, that's just my two cents.

Scott, I can see that you have not the slightest notion of what I am getting at. Not even close. Formulating an argument and arguing are not at all alike. Here is a instructional web page from the University of Wisconsin Writing Center helping its students to formulate arguments:

Writing a Thesis and Making an Argument

Almost every assignment you complete for a history course will ask you to make an argument. Your instructors will often call this your "thesis" -- your position on a subject.

What is an Argument?

An argument takes a stand on an issue. It seeks to persuade an audience of a point of view in much the same way that a lawyer argues a case in a court of law. It is NOT a description or a summary.

• This is an argument: "This paper argues that the movie JFK is inaccurate in its portrayal of President Kennedy."
  
• This is not an argument: "In this paper, I will describe the portrayal of President Kennedy that is shown in the movie JFK."
  

What is a Thesis?

A thesis statement is a sentence in which you state an argument about a topic and then describe, briefly, how you will prove your argument.

• This is an argument, but not yet a thesis: "The movie JFK' inaccurately portrays President Kennedy."
  
• This is a thesis: "The movie JFK' inaccurately portrays President Kennedy because of the way it ignores Kennedy's youth, his relationship with his father, and the findings of the Warren Commission."
  

A thesis makes a specific statement to the reader about what you will be trying to argue. Your thesis can be a few sentences long, but should not be longer than a paragraph. Do not begin to state evidence or use examples in your thesis paragraph.

A Thesis Helps You and Your Reader

Your blueprint for writing:

• Helps you determine your focus and clarify your ideas.
  
• Provides a "hook" on which you can "hang" your topic sentences.
  
• Can (and should) be revised as you further refine your evidence and arguments. New evidence often requires you to change your thesis.
  
• Gives your paper a unified structure and point.
  

Your reader's blueprint for reading:

• Serves as a "map" to follow through your paper.
  
• Keeps the reader focused on your argument.
  
• Signals to the reader your main points.
  
• Engages the reader in your argument.
  

Tips for Writing a Good Thesis

• Find a Focus: Choose a thesis that explores an aspect of your topic that is important to you, or that allows you to say something new about your topic. For example, if your paper topic asks you to analyze women's domestic labor during the early nineteenth century, you might decide to focus on the products they made from scratch at home.
  
• Look for Pattern: After determining a general focus, go back and look more closely at your evidence. As you re-examine your evidence and identify patterns, you will develop your argument and some conclusions. For example, you might find that as industrialization increased, women made fewer textiles at home, but retained their butter and soap making tasks.
  

Strategies for Developing a Thesis Statement

Idea 1. If your paper assignment asks you to answer a specific question, turn the question into an assertion and give reasons for your opinion.
Assignment: How did domestic labor change between 1820 and 1860? Why were the changes in their work important for the growth of the United States?
Beginning thesis: Between 1820 and 1860 women's domestic labor changed as women stopped producing home-made fabric, although they continued to sew their families' clothes, as well as to produce butter and soap. With the cash women earned from the sale of their butter and soap they purchased ready-made cloth, which in turn, helped increase industrial production in the United States before the Civil War.
Idea 2. Write a sentence that summarizes the main idea of the essay you plan to write.
Main Idea: Women's labor in their homes during the first half of the nineteenth century contributed to the growth of the national economy.
Idea 3. Spend time "mulling over" your topic. Make a list of the ideas you want to include in the essay, then think about how to group them under several different headings. Often, you will see an organizational plan emerge from the sorting process.
Idea 4.Use a formula to develop a working thesis statement (which you will need to revise later). Here are a few examples:

1. Although most readers of ______ have argued that ______, closer examination shows that ______.
   
2. ______ uses ______ and ______ to prove that ______.
   
3. Phenomenon X is a result of the combination of ______, ______, and ______.
   

These formulas share two characteristics all thesis statements should have: they state an argument and they reveal how you will make that argument. They are not specific enough, however, and require more work.

Refine

As you work on your essay, your ideas will change and so will your thesis. Here are examples of weak and strong thesis statements.

• Unspecific thesis: "Eleanor Roosevelt was a strong leader as First Lady." This thesis lacks an argument. Why was Eleanor Roosevelt a strong leader?
  
• Specific thesis: "Eleanor Roosevelt recreated the role of the First Lady by her active political leadership in the Democratic Party, by lobbying for national legislation, and by fostering women's leadership in the Democratic Party." The second thesis has an argument: Eleanor Roosevelt "recreated" the position of First Lady, and a three-part structure with which to demonstrate just how she remade the job.
  
• Unspecific thesis: "At the end of the nineteenth century French women lawyers experienced difficulty when they attempted to enter the legal profession." No historian could argue with this general statement and uninteresting thesis.
  
• Specific thesis: "At the end of the nineteenth century French women lawyers experienced misogynist attacks from male lawyers when they attempted to enter the legal profession because male lawyers wanted to keep women out of judgeships." This thesis statement asserts that French male lawyers attacked French women lawyers because they feared women as judges, an intriguing and controversial point.
  

Making an Argument-- Every Thesis Deserves Its Day in Court

You are the best (and only!) advocate for your thesis. Your thesis is defenseless without you to prove that its argument holds up under scrutiny. The jury (i.e., your reader) will expect you, as a good lawyer, to provide evidence to prove your thesis. To prove thesis statements on historical topics, what evidence can an able young lawyer use?

• Primary sources: letters, diaries, government documents, an organization's meeting minutes, newspapers.
  
• Secondary sources: articles and books from your class that explain and interpret the historical event or person you are writing about, lecture notes, films or documentaries.
  

How can you use this evidence?

• Make sure the examples you select from your available evidence address your thesis.
  
• Use evidence that your reader will believe is credible. This means sifting and sorting your sources, looking for the clearest and fairest. Be sure to identify the biases and shortcomings of each piece of evidence for your reader.
  
• Use evidence to avoid generalizations. If you assert that all women have been oppressed, what evidence can you use to support this? Using evidence works to check over-general statements.
  
• Use evidence to address an opposing point of view. How do your sources give examples that refute another historian's interpretation?
  

I can see that you are used to arguing; you are not used to formulating an argument, which is a writing discipline -- and by the way, it is very hard work. When Jim D was writing to you a while back and more recently DJ, they are coming from the the POV of making an argument. You respond by arguing -- apples and oranges.

[Lauren Johnson]

Scott, just to let you know, I expect your book will make some contribution to JFK studies. Just how much, remains to be seen as people who use the scholarly methods as described above put it in the context of their own work.

And I also appreciate what a truly gut wrenching experience writing this book must have been for you. I just can't imagine!

Please excuse the bluntness in my previous post. I have been told more than once I am as blunt as an axe. Yah, that's me.

[Scott Kaiser]

Just one more thing, I'd like everyone to know, when I'm right about something, I'm not going to back down from it. And, when I'm wrong, I'm MAN enough to admit it, as I have proven so in the past.

Lauren, please don't get me wrong, I'm sure DJ and JimDi, as well as the side line bleachers all mean well, the problem was/is that everyone was so stuck on the now, that they were blinded by what could have been.

Also, when you say stuff like this, "When you come against people like DJ and JimDi who do know how to argue a case, you fall short."

You may know them, but you don't know me, I was born into a family that argued all the time, that's all I know, and so, if I'm right about something you better believe I'm going to find a way to win and there's no doubt about that, but like I said, when I'm wrong, I'll accept it, take it like a man, and tell you I'm wrong.

The problem I've seen here is that, I may be the only man to do so, because I'm willing to bet there's not another man here that's willing to admit when he's wrong.

Never, ever argue with someone who's right about something, especially if all he's known his whole life is how to argue, arguing is not new to me.

And, that's just my two cents.

Scott, I can see that you have not the slightest notion of what I am getting at. Not even close. Formulating an argument and arguing are not at all alike. Here is a instructional web page from the University of Wisconsin Writing Center helping its students to formulate arguments:

Writing a Thesis and Making an Argument

Almost every assignment you complete for a history course will ask you to make an argument. Your instructors will often call this your "thesis" -- your position on a subject.
What is an Argument?

An argument takes a stand on an issue. It seeks to persuade an audience of a point of view in much the same way that a lawyer argues a case in a court of law. It is NOT a description or a summary.

• This is an argument: "This paper argues that the movie JFK is inaccurate in its portrayal of President Kennedy."
  
• This is not an argument: "In this paper, I will describe the portrayal of President Kennedy that is shown in the movie JFK."
  

What is a Thesis?

A thesis statement is a sentence in which you state an argument about a topic and then describe, briefly, how you will prove your argument.

• This is an argument, but not yet a thesis: "The movie JFK' inaccurately portrays President Kennedy."
  
• This is a thesis: "The movie JFK' inaccurately portrays President Kennedy because of the way it ignores Kennedy's youth, his relationship with his father, and the findings of the Warren Commission."
  

A thesis makes a specific statement to the reader about what you will be trying to argue. Your thesis can be a few sentences long, but should not be longer than a paragraph. Do not begin to state evidence or use examples in your thesis paragraph.
A Thesis Helps You and Your Reader

Your blueprint for writing:

• Helps you determine your focus and clarify your ideas.
  
• Provides a "hook" on which you can "hang" your topic sentences.
  
• Can (and should) be revised as you further refine your evidence and arguments. New evidence often requires you to change your thesis.
  
• Gives your paper a unified structure and point.
  

Your reader's blueprint for reading:

• Serves as a "map" to follow through your paper.
  
• Keeps the reader focused on your argument.
  
• Signals to the reader your main points.
  
• Engages the reader in your argument.
  

Tips for Writing a Good Thesis

• Find a Focus: Choose a thesis that explores an aspect of your topic that is important to you, or that allows you to say something new about your topic. For example, if your paper topic asks you to analyze women's domestic labor during the early nineteenth century, you might decide to focus on the products they made from scratch at home.
  
• Look for Pattern: After determining a general focus, go back and look more closely at your evidence. As you re-examine your evidence and identify patterns, you will develop your argument and some conclusions. For example, you might find that as industrialization increased, women made fewer textiles at home, but retained their butter and soap making tasks.
  

Strategies for Developing a Thesis Statement

Idea 1. If your paper assignment asks you to answer a specific question, turn the question into an assertion and give reasons for your opinion.
Assignment: How did domestic labor change between 1820 and 1860? Why were the changes in their work important for the growth of the United States?
Beginning thesis: Between 1820 and 1860 women's domestic labor changed as women stopped producing home-made fabric, although they continued to sew their families' clothes, as well as to produce butter and soap. With the cash women earned from the sale of their butter and soap they purchased ready-made cloth, which in turn, helped increase industrial production in the United States before the Civil War.
Idea 2. Write a sentence that summarizes the main idea of the essay you plan to write.
Main Idea: Women's labor in their homes during the first half of the nineteenth century contributed to the growth of the national economy.
Idea 3. Spend time "mulling over" your topic. Make a list of the ideas you want to include in the essay, then think about how to group them under several different headings. Often, you will see an organizational plan emerge from the sorting process.
Idea 4.Use a formula to develop a working thesis statement (which you will need to revise later). Here are a few examples:

1. Although most readers of ______ have argued that ______, closer examination shows that ______.
   
2. ______ uses ______ and ______ to prove that ______.
   
3. Phenomenon X is a result of the combination of ______, ______, and ______.
   

These formulas share two characteristics all thesis statements should have: they state an argument and they reveal how you will make that argument. They are not specific enough, however, and require more work.
Refine

As you work on your essay, your ideas will change and so will your thesis. Here are examples of weak and strong thesis statements.

• Unspecific thesis: "Eleanor Roosevelt was a strong leader as First Lady." This thesis lacks an argument. Why was Eleanor Roosevelt a strong leader?
  
• Specific thesis: "Eleanor Roosevelt recreated the role of the First Lady by her active political leadership in the Democratic Party, by lobbying for national legislation, and by fostering women's leadership in the Democratic Party." The second thesis has an argument: Eleanor Roosevelt "recreated" the position of First Lady, and a three-part structure with which to demonstrate just how she remade the job.
  
• Unspecific thesis: "At the end of the nineteenth century French women lawyers experienced difficulty when they attempted to enter the legal profession." No historian could argue with this general statement and uninteresting thesis.
  
• Specific thesis: "At the end of the nineteenth century French women lawyers experienced misogynist attacks from male lawyers when they attempted to enter the legal profession because male lawyers wanted to keep women out of judgeships." This thesis statement asserts that French male lawyers attacked French women lawyers because they feared women as judges, an intriguing and controversial point.
  

Making an Argument-- Every Thesis Deserves Its Day in Court

You are the best (and only!) advocate for your thesis. Your thesis is defenseless without you to prove that its argument holds up under scrutiny. The jury (i.e., your reader) will expect you, as a good lawyer, to provide evidence to prove your thesis. To prove thesis statements on historical topics, what evidence can an able young lawyer use?

• Primary sources: letters, diaries, government documents, an organization's meeting minutes, newspapers.
  
• Secondary sources: articles and books from your class that explain and interpret the historical event or person you are writing about, lecture notes, films or documentaries.
  

How can you use this evidence?

• Make sure the examples you select from your available evidence address your thesis.
  
• Use evidence that your reader will believe is credible. This means sifting and sorting your sources, looking for the clearest aand fairest. Be sure to identify the biases and shortcomings of each piece of evidence for your reader.
  
• Use evidence to avoid generalizations. If you assert that all women have been oppressed, what evidence can you use to support this? Using evidence works to check over-general statements.
  
• Use evidence to address an opposing point of view. How do your sources give examples that refute another historian's interpretation?
  

I can see that you are used to arguing; you are not used to formulating an argument, which is a writing discipline -- and by the way, it is very hard work. When Jim D was writing to you a while back and more recently DJ, they are coming from the the POV of making an argument. You respond by arguing -- apples and oranges.

Lauren,

I can understand what you're trying to say and truly appreciate it, however, how many times do I need to repeat myself before I start to argue? I believe that Mr. Phipphs came closest to understanding what I was trying to say when he said, "I'm not trying to throw fuel on the fire here, but isn't the "struggle between capitalism and communism" by definition a "struggle of economics and power"? It doesn't add anything to argue the distinction (if there is one).

Naturally individuals who own property and wealth will favor capitalism, and freed serfs will favor communism, because both of those choices maximize their access to resources. The alternative system threatens to deprive them. There is a "tragedy of the commons" in both systems.

As far as the Bay of Pigs goes, it appears to me that, whether or not it was "designed" to fail, that it actually came fairly close to a "military success" (I'm not saying that the overall political system in Cuba would have changed). If the Cuban footsoldiers on the ground had secured the radio stations like they were supposed to, there wouldn't have been a coordinated dawn airstrike the next morning, that disabled the Barbara and deprived the surviving soldiers of much of thier supplies. If the 30 Cuban footsoldiers that were parachuted into the jungle had been able to find thier supplies and secure the road to the plantation, the Cuban response wouldn't have had a convenient staging area. The greatest visible single deficit of the military plan was failing to account for the coral reefs and the tides, so that the fiberglass landing boats were damaged. Ask any soldier: a military "plan" doesn't survive contact with the enemy.

I feel quite certain that the real "plan" at the policy level allowed for both success or failure, and the planners would derive some benefit from either possibility."

No one responded to him, no one commented regarding his post, it made me stop scratch my head and wonder why? Than it hit me!

I wondered, is it because someone here was just looking for a good argument? Than I smiled realizing that they came to the right place.

I now hope we can put this thread to rest and we ALL learned something here today, not just me, but all of us. I can understand how hard it is to swallow your pride, so I'll go first!

[Scott Kaiser]

Scott, just to let you know, I expect your book will make some contribution to JFK studies. Just how much, remains to be seen as people who use the scholarly methods as described above put it in the context of their own work.

And I also appreciate what a truly gut wrenching experience writing this book must have been for you. I just can't imagine!

Please excuse the bluntness in my previous post. I have been told more than once I am as blunt as an axe. Yah, that's me.

Thank you for your kind words, when you say, "And I also appreciate what a truly gut wrenching experience writing this book must have been for you. I just can't imagine!"

I truly, deep in my heart appreciate these words, truly, a lot of blood, sweat and tears went into this book. I poured out my soul. My mother, is still very nervous and thinks I should just keep quite about it all, it took me a few years just to get her to open up.