JVB vs Scott Kaiser

[Jonathan Nolan]

Haslam's Dr Mary's Monkey is one of the most important- and scariest- books ever written.

Buy it.

Dawn

The prologue....

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...ZL0YaWuGnA

Thanks David, now I want to re- read the rest of it...although my opinion of Baker has greatly changed since my first reading back in 09. I saw Haslam present at COPA in 09 and he had many news articles about Baker and her cancer research, so I was persuaded by that part. The rest of her story is pure bull and grows as time passes. I did catch some of the call ins on coast to coast and on specific questions like Did Mrs. O know abut the (alleged) affair, she just danced around refusing to respond directly. I listened to a bit more and it was the same. So I pulled out the earbud. I am at the point now where I place her in the same category as James Files. A media whore and one whose evolving story gets more and more absurd.
In addition to this she has a private FB group/page which sole purpose is to trash John Armstrong's work.

To be ignored, imho.

Dawn

Another thought that occurs is that the whole "Dr. Mary's Monkey" may be why someone surfaced JVB in the first place, as a pure disinfo agent to lead Haslam astray and "fetzer" his excellent work by using guilt by association with the JVB woo...

[Jonathan Nolan]

It's kind of obvious that if Judyth Baker was given forged paycheck stubs for Reily Coffee by CIA that alone makes her not ignorable. David obviously isn't ignoring her.


If this interpretation of Baker is accurate that would make her a present live op, which should make her of great interest.


It would also potentially credit some of her claims as possibly being real and being part of that op at the time. There's something that bugs me about Anna Lewis that she's telling the truth, which would potentially conform to this version.


I don't think the Jackson issue was fully hashed out.



.

JVB could be a fully hypnotically conditioned alumni of one of those damned "special schools" for that matter- a bit like "Harvey".

[Scott Kaiser]

It's kind of obvious that if Judyth Baker was given forged paycheck stubs for Reily Coffee by CIA that alone makes her not ignorable. David obviously isn't ignoring her.


If this interpretation of Baker is accurate that would make her a present live op, which should make her of great interest.


It would also potentially credit some of her claims as possibly being real and being part of that op at the time. There's something that bugs me about Anna Lewis that she's telling the truth, which would potentially conform to this version.


I don't think the Jackson issue was fully hashed out.



.

JVB could be a fully hypnotically conditioned alumni of one of those damned "special schools" for that matter- a bit like "Harvey".

The wheels keep going round and round [in my head].

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp9dc9im3-M

[Albert Doyle]

JVB could be a fully hypnotically conditioned alumni of one of those damned "special schools" for that matter- a bit like "Harvey".

It's refreshing to see someone who understands there could be a lot more to Baker despite her obvious flaws.


She's definitely lying about Oswald coming back to Dallas and telling her about his visit to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico. That never happened because the Consulate employees all said it wasn't Oswald. So we know she's a liar and her excuses over that are weak. I haven't fully figured out JVB because I think her Anna Lewis story is true.

[David Josephs]

There's something about JVB that sets off my credibility sensor. I can't put my finger on it. Perhaps she's just the type of personality that doesn't register well when trying to convince people. I don't know. I'd be reticent of going full Fetzer on her.

I used to wonder whether one of Project Oswald's assignments was to seduce and keep under control the "child prodigy" scientist JVB- a cold blooded tactice to keep a useful tool under control whist she was being used for her expertise.

Now I wonder if the JVB of today is even the same person as that young girl.

Once the door opens to doubling, it doesn't close again.

As per Robert Oswald's claims about LHO's favorite television program being "I Led 3 Lives"...

In Armstrong's book H&L he debunks this very easily to show how Robert, IMO, was integral to the incrimination of Harvey. A man I firmly believe he knew was not his brother.

There is really not very many places to go in rebuttal here Jonathon.... agreed?

H&L p.42
I knew that Robert Oswald joined the Marines and left forSan Diego on July
15, 1952, and was curious when the television program I LedThree Lives first aired on
television. At the local library I found a book entitled TheComplete Directory to Prime
Time Network and Cable TV Shows 1946-Present. According tothis book, I Led Three
Lives was first released in September, 1953-a year and twomonths after Robert Oswald
left Fort Worth and joined the Marines. (52-29) There were 117episodes and the original
show ran thru mid-1956. Re-runs were aired years later, butonly after the series ended
in mid-1956. Lee Oswald could not possibly have watched ILed Three Lives in the summer
of 1952, nor could he have watched re-runs which did notstart until mid-1956.

When Robert Oswald left home to join the Marines on July 15,1952, Lee could
not possible have watched I Led Three Lives, and there areno other indication that he
was living in a "fantasy world." These factsindicate that Robert invented this story in
an attempt to malign his dead "brother." But why..... why would Robert knowingly make
false statements about his dead "brother," and forwhat purpose?

Robert Oswald was one of three people (along with Margueriteand John Pic)
who had intimate knowledge about Lee Oswald's character andbackground, and their
statements would be difficult to challenge. Robert, bycleverly combining fact and fiction,
helped to create a false picture that his dead"brother" had serious psychological
problems which originated in his youth. Robert's testimonywas used by the Warren
Commission to conclude that Lee Harvey Oswald was amal-adjusted youth who was
capable of assassinating the President. Realizing this, Ibegan to scrutinize and question
Robert Oswald's Warren Commission testimony, his book,television interviews, and
FBI reports. I found many inaccuracies, distortions, andoutright falsehoods that w'ill be
discussed in detail in later chapters.


52-29:

[Jonathan Nolan]

There is really not very many places to go in rebuttal here Jonathon.... agreed?

I agree with your basic point. However I also think that fragmentary truth is used to develop all the lies.

For example I know from personal experience in some circumstances an agent / operative will cultivate a hobby, an interest in a television show etc. for some "nefarious" purpose. One can hardly go to a bridge tournament until one knows how to play bridge, has "learned the lingo" and so on.

Likewise this "I Led 3 Lives" thing... Makes me wonder a great deal.

The timing is all wrong, and that is a typical liespotter tell. But it could also be a Hemming style hint.

In this case I revert to my love of Agatha "intel agent" Christie (she is the real inventor of the dashing young agent James Bond - he appears in one of her short stories read by her "godson" Ian Fleming). The easiest way to divert or delay penetration of the truth of TWO parallel lives... is to ADD A THIRD...

Harvey, Lee... and Oswald?

The CIA references "The Harvey Project" in its post-USSR debrief papers from SR6, and elsewhere references "The Oswald Project".

LHO seems like a "seed" character - predominantly "played" by two "actors". However during the course of the run of his show on occasion an understudy was needed. Also it seems a very useful and quite obvious trick to use. If investigators from hostile agencies, law enforcement out of the loop or anyone else starts really focusing on there being two Oswalds, along comes a third more absurd Oswald and the whole concept is derailed.

A couple of anonymous tipsters have said there were SIX Oswalds. I think this "SIX" figure is nothing more than the sum total of the photographed and/or witnessed and recorded Oswalds.

I do think there was a Harvey and a Lee. But I also know that once you have a false ID and a document section backing it up with "real fake" documents ie real forms filled in with fake information, the sky is the limit. And another ADG or equivalent rank officer could intervene and start causing some messes by saying "hey, I'll just use your returned defector ID on this one. Who will know?" so there is the occasional unforced continuity error.

The "I Lived 3 Lives" thing interests me because it seems like one of those classic continuity errors where Robert Oswald, part of the family of secrets or front family, rushed to try and paint LHO as this fantasist and "I like to infiltrate" clown-like Walter Mitty. Very dismissive. TOO dismissive.

My take on Harvey and Lee? They're part and parcel of a deception operation along the lines of and on the scale of "At Bertram's Hotel". It isn't this person or that person involved, there is a large cast and an entire ants nest of people. I think a FBI penetration of CIA activities, done in a casual and arrogant way as he so often did by Hoover, was punished by the CIA who coopted the asset, used him as a patsy, and continued using his double from then on. I think in addition to the discussed differences between the two LHOs, one was a homosexual CIA asset used due to his need for money and his ability to be burned at any time due to his homosexuality, and the other was a fairly unhappy and not as bright individual who served a specific purpose, was still on the books when needed but was prior to the JFK plot just flagged as another FBI / mafia pawn.

I've seen some very good timelines and comparison charts on Harvey and Lee but one I haven't seen is the comparison between FBI and CIA and between mafia / Cuban links.

I have a hunch that the two LHOs would resolve to a FBI "snitch" and a CIA homosexual operator. One of them came off quite cold and the other one mixed not only with the homosexual underground but also with fellow CIA contract agents.

People make the argument that why on earth would CIA use homosexuals when it's such an obvious kill switch. Well, the homosexuality would preclude them having a job directly employed with the agency, as in, at CIA offices or whatever, but that same killswitch makes them ideal contract agents or cutouts. Ideal. Automatic ability to compromise and discredit them.



And there are other examples of this sort of doubling.

[Jonathan Nolan]

JVB could be a fully hypnotically conditioned alumni of one of those damned "special schools" for that matter- a bit like "Harvey".

It's refreshing to see someone who understands there could be a lot more to Baker despite her obvious flaws.


She's definitely lying about Oswald coming back to Dallas and telling her about his visit to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico. That never happened because the Consulate employees all said it wasn't Oswald. So we know she's a liar and her excuses over that are weak. I haven't fully figured out JVB because I think her Anna Lewis story is true.

Everyone from Superbowl footballers to Apollo athletes have been intensively hypnotised, to improve "performance". But the problem for those hypnotised is, how do they when and where they ever woke up?

Once hypnotised and entrained over a period, passing a lie detector test, evincing physical symptoms and even affecting different speech patterns and accents is not only possible, it's trivial.

There were and are special schools where hypnosis and "sleep teaching" were (and are) a big part of the process. How can we know what the hell the generations of "X-Men" were taught at these places?

Schizoid multiple personality or believing an entirely false history would be the least of what could be produced.

[Albert Doyle]

Everyone from Superbowl footballers to Apollo athletes have been intensively hypnotised, to improve "performance". But the problem for those hypnotised is, how do they when and where they ever woke up?

Once hypnotised and entrained over a period, passing a lie detector test, evincing physical symptoms and even affecting different speech patterns and accents is not only possible, it's trivial.

There were and are special schools where hypnosis and "sleep teaching" were (and are) a big part of the process. How can we know what the hell the generations of "X-Men" were taught at these places?

Schizoid multiple personality or believing an entirely false history would be the least of what could be produced.

The questions would be if JVB has a real dimension how was it used back then and how is it being used now?


You brought up an interesting point that I never considered, that Oswald was spooking Baker. It is possible that Oswald was penetrating and minding Baker's (Oschner's) bioweapon plot for Intel. Seeing Baker's propensity to lie I would think it was the other way around and JVB was infiltrating Oswald just in case Oswald needed to be discredited. That would explain why she's still spooking him now. She's still a live op carrying out her duty to muddy up the Oswald tale with the full Fetzer treatment.

[David Josephs]

Gonna agree with Dawn here...

I mean have at it if talking it over works for youo but this is like the Files story

Just enough truth to make you think it might be real... until you hear the disappearing twin brother story.

JVB is done in by her friend Anne in that video she herself endorses.


"I met Lee in Feb 1962 in New Orleans" is a true statement...

Let's say she was off by a year, repeatedly. This dovetails into the question of whether the Oswalds were ever at Neely. If this was someone else
then I suppose it is possible Harvey and Marina and June are in New Orleans... yet now we are getting into unchartered waters.

Anna also did not say 1963. She was most specific and repeated it: Jan-Apr 1962 with JVB sitting right there listening while the video stops and starts.

You'd think someone in the room would have reminded her that Harvey and Marina were in Minsk having a baby.

[Albert Doyle]

JVB is done in by her friend Anne in that video she herself endorses.


"I met Lee in Feb 1962 in New Orleans" is a true statement...

Let's say she was off by a year, repeatedly. This dovetails into the question of whether the Oswalds were ever at Neely. If this was someone else
then I suppose it is possible Harvey and Marina and June are in New Orleans... yet now we are getting into unchartered waters.

Anna also did not say 1963. She was most specific and repeated it: Jan-Apr 1962 with JVB sitting right there listening while the video stops and starts.

You'd think someone in the room would have reminded her that Harvey and Marina were in Minsk having a baby.

You can judge JVB by Anna Lewis and not the other way around IMO.


Harvey & Lee is real in my opinion. The fact JVB says it isn't tells you a lot about her. Lewis almost certainly encountered Landesberg's Oswald. And I have a strong feeling Thornley did too.