Scott Kaiser Wrote:This is all way to confusing for me. Albert says,
Quote:Also, Anna Lewis responds to JVB quickly at one point of the interview regarding the degree of JVB's involvement with Oswald.
would or could anyone tell me how many times the two spoke to each prior to taping the interview?
What am I trying to say?
Also, these dates of Lee and Harvey are also very confusing. I have reason to believe that Oswald, and I'm talking about the Lee Harvey Oswald no doubles, but Lee was in Miami either November 1962, December 1962 or January 1963.
I wish I could pinpoint the exact month only because it would help narrow down my mother's story of when my father took his trip down to Miami.
Would anyone know if Oswald was down in Miami on anyone of those months? Thanks.
To your first question... I don't know. More importantly, if you watch the video, it starts and stops a number of times. You can hear the people in the background off camera. JVB was there listening.
Anna says Jan-Apr 1962 a number of times.
With regards to the months you mention this is it... Nothing on LEE from Nov 62 until he resurfaces in New Orleans and then Dallas throughout the summer of 1963.
Hope this helps...
DJ
p420-421
Lynn Davis Curry lived in Augusta, Georgia and drove a cab for the Dixie Cab
Company in the early 1960's. During the month of November 1962 Curry picked up a
white male at the intersection of 8th Street and Broad who was about twenty five years
old and wearing a black jacket. T he young man introduced himself as "Lee Oswald" and
then began to talk about himself. Oswald told Curry that he served in the Marine Corps,
traveled to Russia, married a Russian girl, supported Fidel Castro, and was traveling to
New Orleans. Curry let the man off at the corner of 5th and Watkins Street where his
car was parked. Before leaving the cab the young man insisted that Curry write down
his name, "Lee Oswald," and said that Curry would be hearing his name again in the
future. Curry wrote the name "Lee Oswald" on his daily trip sheet and remembered his
name on November 22, 1963.
When interviewed by the FBI Curry was shown several photographs of Lee
Harvey Oswald, who he said "resembled" his passenger. The FBI report of their interview with Curry ends by stating, "Savannah (FBI Office) will review records of Dixie
Cab Co. for pertinent period and attempt to substantiate information furnished by
source. Report will follow."145 Predictably, there is no record which indicates that FBI agents
obtained Curry s trip sheets.
p422Pic discussed his impressions of "his brother"with the Commission and said, "Well, sir; the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November of 1962 was not the LeeHarvey Oswald I had known 10 years previous."
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
And David Josephs managed to mention the work of the sterling Carol Hewitt in the article. Carol was the first person to really raise some serious questions about Baker.
Trine Day is holding a conference in October in New Orleans. The focus in on the Crescent City and its role in the JFK case.
David Denton was on BOR plugging the conference, and also Baker.
I would have liked to have attended to talk about Garrison and Clay Shaw, but I don't think it helps our cause to have Baker's version on stage also.
{ "DID LEE HARVEY OSWALD GO TO MEXICO CITY?" According to "Ralph Yates" (Amazon book review comment on Me & Lee) I'm making "excuses similar to a schoolgirl" "making up excuses as she goes along" --and he focuses on The Cuban Consulate and Silvia Duran, who worked there, saying "The problem with this is the best of Kennedy Assassination research is starting to show that Oswald never went to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City. So how could Oswald return to Baker in Texas and give her details about a place he never visited? Baker gives no answer to this." THIS IS NOT TRUE, BUT THEN, MR. YATES IS NOT COMPELLED TO TELL THE TRUTH. First of all, ask yourself why Silvia Dura was arrested by the Mexican police and tortured to get her to admit that she slept with Lee Oswald, at the behest of the CIA. She admitted it, but later retracted it, but please remember that DURAN WAS MARRIED and had every reason to want to retract her confession. However, there had to be substance to the allegation. Lee told me that he slept with a woman associated with the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City to try to get access to a Cuban transit visa. The police and the CIA apparently believed this was possible. Anything Senora Duran said later must be taken in context that she did not want to be known as a lover of a Presidential assassin. As for Lee being in Mexico City at all, MR. YATES DOES NOT MENTION THE RESPECTED RESEARCHER JOHN NEWMAN (FORMER CIA) WHOSE BOOKS ABOUT LEE OSWALD IN MEXICO CITY APPARENTLY ESCAPED HIS ATTENTION. Here's a quote from "OSWALD AND THE CIA":: "It appears that the CIA had advance knowledge about more than Oswald's October 1 visit to the Soviet Embassy. There is circumstantial evidence that the CIA Mexico City station might have been watching Oswald since his arrival on September 27. This evidence, according to the Lopez Report, was the Agency's decision to investigate the transcripts back to September 27, before they had learned of that date through post-assassination investigation:" NOTE THAT CIA LOOKED FOR LEE IN MEXICO CITY BY SEPT, 27--BEFORE THAT DATE HAD BEEN GIVEN TO THEM. "This Committee has not been able to determine how the CIA Headquarters knew, on 23 November 1963, that a review of the [redacted] material should begin with the production from 27 September, the day Oswald first appeared at the Soviet and Cuban Embassies". HERE'S A BIT MORE: A "seemingly innocuous cable about Lee Harvey Oswald, was sent by CIA headquarters to Mexico City station chief Win Scott on October 10, 1963. It shows the high-level of interest in Oswald six weeks before the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22." THAT IS IMPORTANT: FOR WHY WOULD CIA SEND A CABLE TO MEXICO CITY ON OCT. 10, 1963, ABOUT LEE OSWALD, UNLESS IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR MEXICO CITY'S CIA STATION CHIEF TO KNOW ABOUT LEE OSWALD? In Me & Lee I explain that Lee was sent to Mexico City by the CIA, but the mission was called off. I report that Lee was debriefed in Dallas after his return. This delayed his visit to Marina and little June, who were staying with Ruth Paine in nearby Irving, TX. Marina's feelings were hurt upon learning that Lee was in Dallas for at least a day and a half before he contacted her, but Lee told me that his first duty was to get debriefed after going to Mexico City. FAKE SOUVENIRS AND THE 'LOOKING FOR A JOB' LIE: Lee had not planned to return to Dallas, but was ordered to do so. You will not find Lee's suit [which he wore for his debate in New Orleans] and nicer clothes in his listed possessions in Dallas, because he left them, he told me, in a locker in Laredo. We have records of FBI searching for lockers that might contain his things in Laredo. Marina felt that the souvenir he brought back--a bracelet--was commonly found in a five-and-dime store. Lee probably did buy it at the last minute. As for Lee looking for jobs elsewhere in the US , such as in Houston, while his double (which existed) pretended to be him in Mexico City, the absurdity of this situation is obvious to any intelligent person reading this: if Lee had got a job whole 'job hunting' how could he be framed in Mexico City. Obviously, Lee had to be in Mexico City in order to be blamed as contacting Kostikov, the USSR 'assassin" for example. If people said they saw Lee in Philadelphia or Houston, or if he began working in such a city, efforts to frame Lee in Mexico City would have been worthless and obvious. Lee was in Mexico City. (exhibit attached: it's hard to read, but date is Oct. 10, 1963, and it's all about Lee, and it has been sent to Mexico City's chief honcho. It is a propaganda piece, so that everything that is 'supposed' to make Lee look bad is now in their possession. This gave the CIA plenty of time to delete any photos of Lee entering the Consulate, and of course, a substitute of an older, heavyset male was made and labeled with Lee's name, fooling nobody. The Oct. 10, 1963 cable is a virtual kit to frame Lee Oswald. Lee apparently even attended a twist party in Mexico City, hosted by Silvia Duran's brother-in-law (or brother). False witnesses would come forth claiming Lee said he wanted to shoot JFK, or that he had been given a huge sum of money to kill JFK, and so on. They had to use somebody who had actually been in Mexico City, knowing witnesses were available to verify that. Finally, Lee's application for the Cuban transit visa shows his passport photo and signature, and it was in Silvia Duran's own hands. She can claim the man was blonde and short, but the photos show it's Lee. attachment: OCT. 10,1963 'KIT TO FRAME OSWALD' SENT BY CIA TO MEXICO CITY CIA: }
Judyth Baker begins her missive by accusing me of not being compelled to tell the truth. This is the typical paranoid type framing Ms Baker uses to condition her information in order to present herself as being the victim of unfair attackers out to persecute her.
Ms Baker, if you stayed true to the established record you would admit that the CIA got the Mexican police to jail and torture Silvia Duran because she refused to back off her story that the man calling himself Oswald at the Consulate was not the Lee Harvey Oswald shown in the newspapers after the assassination. Duran finally gave in and changed her story saying it was Lee. The story of Lee sleeping with Duran was probably CIA disinformation designed to sheep-dip Oswald as a pro-Castro-ite. Your ignoring of the original context of Ms Duran's witnessing - that is, that Duran said the man had blond curly hair and was shorter than Lee, only serves to further prove my point.
You do the same thing again with Newman. I've read 'Oswald And The CIA'. You are quoting Newman out of context. You should have posted his quote saying that the government committed fraud in the case of Oswald's trip to Mexico City. The correct context is Newman is quoting FBI and CIA reports that self-servingly speak as if Oswald was in Mexico. As I said originally, the best research is now showing Oswald never went to Mexico City. There's no evidence of him being in Mexico and the most meaningful evidence shows intel admitting Oswald was impersonated in Mexico. Mark Lane interviewed David Atlee Phillips at a California University where he said "History will show Oswald never went to Mexico". You, again, only prove my accusations against you by doing this.
You seem to fail to detect that Oswald was framed in Mexico in order to portray him as a pro-Castro-ite bomb-thrower and danger. It's pretty simple to figure out that the cables referred to Oswald in Mexico because they were trying to frame him as being there visiting Kostikov and planning to escape to his alleged sponsor Castro after the assassination. Really, you are offering easily explained rhetoric as firm proof which only furthers my accusations.
Again Ms Baker you try to cap this off by offering one of your classic mish-mashes of jumbled evidence but after trying to decipher the flurry of references I am at a loss over what you are trying to say or how it answers the point? This is classic of you. What the suit allegedly left in Laredo or the bracelet has to do with the Mexico evidence I don't know. Certainly your less than clear statement does nothing to resolve that. I see you also now admit to an Oswald double. Good, that is something you denied before and didn't believe in.
It is completely incorrect to say that since Oswald was job hunting he couldn't be framed in Mexico. I'm glad you offered that because it is a good example of what I'm talking about. There is no reason why the double you admit to in this response couldn't be on one end while Lee was on the other. In fact it is exactly because of the incautiousness of that impersonation that these conflicts are now coming out.
I'm surprised to see that while saying it would be ridiculous to try to frame Oswald that you then return to offer a whole list of evidence showing CIA framed Oswald in Mexico. Do you see, Ms Baker, how this reinforces my point about you? And this is what you offer as a refutation while accusing me of not being compelled to tell the truth??? Did it ever occur to you that while all the other things you list were frame-ups that your twist party included amongst them might also have been a frame up? I believe Newman also speculated that too. Was Lee's Cuban Consulate passport photo found after CIA tortured Duran into agreement?
Honestly Ms Baker, you are not seriously offering this mish-mash flurry of uncredible, poorly-contexted, logically-unsound references as a refutation of what I said? Sorry, but in my mind it only serves to reinforce my accusation and prove yet again another example of what I am saying. And I'm not one of your worst critics. My official position is that there may be some truth to your story. For instance I believe Anna Lewis on seeing an Oswald double (as you now admit) in New Orleans in early 1962. But I can tell you right now you are not doing very well on your Mexico claim or your defense of it here.
So Albert, you admit posting on that other site under the name of "Ralph Yates"? Just curious why you would assume the moniker of an at least "partly-discredited-by-virtue-of-insanity" eyewitness to the Oswald double story. That strikes me as callous. Wasn't the use of the Ralph Yates name the topic of some other seemingly pointless post in the recent past? What are you up to?
PS: I don't believe JVB's story in the slightest, and if there are doubles showing up around here, she's one of them, according to her sometime-defender Edward Haslam...
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)
James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."
Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."
Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
David Josephs Wrote:Lee was not in Mexico either Albert... I spell it out in great detail in those 6 articles... These reports never see the light of day for years to come...
The man "Oswald" is acknowledged NOT to have been seen anywhere but the Embassies and his room... Everyone tries so very hard to put our Oswald in Mexico... Reports from 1975 from the CIA still say that he entered and left by automobile - regardless of what the FBI says he did....
DJ
Agreed. However it strikes me that an uncarried-out plan possibly existed using the Harvey & Lee situation where Lee was intended to be the Mexico Oswald walking through all those set-ups in order to create a Lee Harvey Oswald who had actually pulled-off all those sheep-dipping events. This would have created a fully fleshed-out Northwoods Oswald who cooperated with Kostikov and intended flight to Cuba after JFK's assassination. The Mexico plan that actually occurred looks like a clumsy one that was done on the fly in order to replace the original one where Lee would have fit right in.
Maybe I can clear some of that up (I realize this is a JVB thread yet I'd like to address this comment)
I originally thought, like JA that it was Lee who made the trip until we come across the very first bus out of New Orleans.
We MUST remember that at this point if Lee is supposed to leave evidence of a trip to Mexico along with the calls he made why not just buy a 3 or 4 part round trip ticket from New Orleans thru Laredo to Mexico City and back to Dallas? He had the money according to the evidence. and he is a completely innocent man at this point... no need to hide a trip to Mexico.
Instead the FBI painstakenly gets him from one bus to another without tickets or evidence, calls him O.H. LEE due to the way the tourist visa was filled out yet when it comes time to alphabetize the FM-11 recap of all tourists, he is put under "o" for Oswald...
When I came to find that originally the FBI had the Frontera bus out of Mexico, leaving the afternoon of the 2nd it was due to a number of factors.
1 - the CIA claims the photo of "Oswald" is from Oct 1 even though the first photos are from 12:22pm Oct 2 and the one in the WCR is from Oct 4th...
2 - Arturo Bosch, in front of witnesses who tell the story, changes the info on the FRONTERA passenger manifest from Nov to October and from 1 to 2pm - Hoover specifically calls these writings out as NOT ORIGINAL.
3 - after deciding this is not credible evidence, it is simply dropped and we hear nothing more about it. Members of the Mexican government arrived to take all the records from all the bus lines for those days. Bosch CREATES evidence to get Oswald out of Mexico even though the CIA and I&NS says he left by car.
As I kept digging Albert/Ralph/?? I find that none of the witnesses actually sees Oswald.
None of the drivers corroborate the info...
If LEE was tasked with leaving a breadcrumb trail for his trip to the Cuban and Soviet compounds, he did an extremely poor job for these is NO USA EVIDENCE related to this trip. They even created the Dr. HIDEEL vaccination record from the stamp kit they attribute to Oswald to allow Oswald to pass thru customs BACK into the USA without needing a shot... or a record of one.
There is litereally no evidence on his return from Laredo to San Antonio or from San Anonio to Dallas
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Very important. If you read JVB's response she now admits she believes there was an Oswald double.
JVB:
Quote:while his double (which existed) pretended to be him in Mexico City, the absurdity of this situation is obvious to any intelligent person reading this
Very important. If you read JVB's response she now admits she believes there was an Oswald double.
JVB:
Quote:while his double (which existed) pretended to be him in Mexico City, the absurdity of this situation is obvious to any intelligent person reading this
the only thing this corroborates is that HARVEY did not go to Mexico and even then very loosely.
As for a double... The man Duran and Azcue say presented himself as Oswald was NOT, repeat NOT the man Ruby shot - per there own testimony. and Did not return after the afternoon of Sept 27.
At the core of it she still wants us to believe an Oswald imposter was in Mexico for that time period....
While most assuredly not a "double" as Lee was not a "double" for Harvey but only looked similar, the man in Mexico was not, imo, on any of these buses and was more likely part of a CIA plan to connect Oswald to Cuba and Castro for Phase 1 of the planned story. Once Phase 2 hits and he's a Lone Nut, the speed at which the "Castro evidence" disappears and is discredited is amazing...
Here, work this one out Albert...
The Flecha Rojas bus leaving Monterrey produces a passenger manifest of those who board in Monterrey.
The bus the FBI puts him on is a Felcha Rojas (Red Arrow) bus yet the evidence wshows this bus does not leave at 7:30pm but at 15:30 or 3:30pm from Monterrey.
It is 3-5 hours by bus from Neuvo Laredo to Monterrey. The FBI puts him on a 2-2:30 pm bus TO Monterrey.
It is not possible for anyone on this bus to get to Monterrey in time for the 3:30pm to Mexico City.
But there was a Del Norte bus leaving at 7:30pm that arrive in Mexico City at 9:30-10am the next morning.
(Note: there are other reports related to the Anahuac bus lines tha conflicts with all of this and is yet another "route" available to the FBI if needed... and they do get back to Anahuac...
We spent one day inMonterrey and left by bus at 7:30 p.m. at Monterrey, and it was on that busthat we met Lee Harvey Oswald. (NOTE: Let's remember what McFarland said… the Australian girls boarded the bus in the evening of Sept 26) Miss MUMFORD.Well, the ticket we had on this deal enabled us only to travel in the States,not in Mexico. So, we bought the ticketon the bus at Laredo and that enabled us to stop off in Monterrey. But the ticket was from Laredo to Mexico City. Mr. BALL. And from whatcompany did you buy the ticket? Miss MUMFORD. As far as I canremember, it was a bus company called Transporter del Norte. Mr. BALL.Now, you got on the bus at Monterreyon the evening of September 26 at 7:30p.m., you just told me? Miss MUMFORD. Yes. Mr. BALL. And what was thecompany that operated that bus, do you know? Miss MUMFORD. That was also Transporter delNorte. Miss MUMFORD.Oswald was the first one we spoke to.He left his seat and came down to the back of the bus to speak to us. Mr. BALL. That was after the bus had left Monterrey? Miss MUMFORD. Yes …. Then we arrived in the Mexico Citybus station and he didn't speak to us,attempt to speak to us at all. He was one of the first off the bus and thelast I remember seeing him he was standing across the end of the room. WCD1245p274 is the beginning of the typed version passenger list #11889 for FlechaRojas bus #516 for passengers who ONLY got on in Monterrey (i.e. Mumford andWinston). Their names, as expected, donot appear on this list. .
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
