LR Trotter Wrote:After almost 4 months, after almost 80 replies, and after almost 11,000 views, ScarfLady, as pictured, has yet to be reliably properly identified.
It hasn't even been shown that it is a lady.
Okay Mr Mitchum. I base my conclusion on what I see of her features and attire that indicates ScarfLady is a female. What is your conclusion as to why my conclusion is wrong? Simply put, what indicates otherwise?
My conclusion is that the figure in question is too indistinct to tell whether it is a male or a female. You can't tell what its features are, or what it is wearing. Maybe you have special powers which enable you to see what normal people cannot.
p.s. It would be nice if you spelled my name correctly.
I do apologize for the spelling error, Mr Mitcham.
Are you referencing the lady that I refer to as ScarfLady, as pictured on a film still linked to on the first post on this thread? I believe the time estimate of filming is about 12:50pm CST, or about 20 minutes after the assassination. When seen as a motion picture, she is seen stepping up to the landing and turns and looks toward BillyNolanLovelady, who is on a lower step.
11-05-2017, 03:57 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2017, 03:27 AM by LR Trotter.)
LR Trotter Wrote:
Ray Mitcham Wrote:
LR Trotter Wrote:
Ray Mitcham Wrote:It hasn't even been shown that it is a lady.
Okay Mr Mitchum. I base my conclusion on what I see of her features and attire that indicates ScarfLady is a female. What is your conclusion as to why my conclusion is wrong? Simply put, what indicates otherwise?
My conclusion is that the figure in question is too indistinct to tell whether it is a male or a female. You can't tell what its features are, or what it is wearing. Maybe you have special powers which enable you to see what normal people cannot.
p.s. It would be nice if you spelled my name correctly.
I do apologize for the spelling error, Mr Mitcham.
Are you referencing the lady that I refer to as ScarfLady, as pictured on a film still linked to on the first post on this thread? I believe the time estimate of filming is about 12:50pm CST, or about 20 minutes after the assassination. When seen as a motion picture, she is seen stepping up to the landing and turns and looks toward BillyNolanLovelady, who is on a lower step.
As a reminder, this thread was activated to hopefully properly identify a female seen on film, at reportedly about 12:50pm CST, 11/22/'63, as she stepped up and onto the TSBD Building Elm St entrance landing. And, because of her attire that includes a head scarf/bandana, I refer to her as ScarfLady for reference while attempting to ascertain her proper identification.
Unfortunately, it appears as though some postings and/or replies to this thread/topic have been replaced into a separate thread/topic that has, again, been moved to the BearPit thread area. Also, quite possibly Mr Mitcham failed to ascertain the topic of this thread and was expressing his comments regarding person(s) seen on film at 12:30pm CST, 11/22/'63 that has a thorough ongoing discussion of that topic on another thread.
LR Trotter Wrote:For lack of a better term, "ScarfLady" is used due to her wearing a head scarf/bandana, and also wearing a dark coat, as she is seen on the upper step/landing of the TSBD main entrance portal some minutes after DealeyPlaza shooting that fatally wounded JFK and seriously wounded JBC. I have yet to see her properly identified, but she appears to be seeking entrance into the building, as BillyNolanLovelady appears to be looking on from a lower step. So, for clarification, is she an employee of the TSBD building? And, can she be properly identified?
We may have to take a couple of things into consideration as you continue to seek to identify this woman, especially if you have narrowed down your choices to Pauline Sanders and Sarah Stanton. I'll have to read through some material later today, but I'm almost certain--given the time of the photograph shown--Pauline Sanders had already returned to her office desk on an upper floor of the building; and, in regards to Mrs. Stanton (RIP), she may be ruled out as I believe Billy Nolan Lovelady made reference to her as the woman shading her eyes from the Sun, where in that particular reference the lady in question actually shading her eyes is much heavier than "ScarfLady". Again, I'll make a good faith effort to double-back here later today to share some specifics on the points I've shared. Enjoy your day.
Let's take some things in consideration in respect to Pauline Sanders and/or Sarah Stanton as potential candidates for ScarfLady.
Let's begin with their respective FBI statements:
Sarah Stanton (11-23-63 FBI report, CD7 p.20) "Sarah Stanton...advised that she is employed in the second floor office of the Texas School Book Depository...and at about 12:30 on November 22, 1963, she was standing on the front steps as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions; however, she did not know where they came from and immediately went into the building, caught the elevator, and went to the second floor offices, and into the office of the Southwestern Publishing Company, located there, to try to look out the window and see what was happening. She then went to the restroom and later returned to her desk."
Pauline Sanders ((3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) ) "At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the presidential motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository. To the best of my recollection I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and although I knew him by sight as an employee of the building I did not know him by name and had never spoken to him at any time. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository Building at any time on the morning of November 22, 1963. After the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island in front of the Depository Building to see what had happened. I remained there a moment and then returned to the Depository Building through the main entrance. I then walked to the second floor where I usually worked."
As we have read, both Sanders and Stanton by their own FBI sworn statements shared above immediately remove themselves off/away from the front entrance long before ScarfLady is captured on film some 15-17 minutes later. Plenty of strange activity out on those steps that fateful afternoon. A 55 year old woman (Sanders) and a 41 year old woman (Stanton) immediately return inside of a building where supposedly shots just came from (one would think they were old enough to know better).
In addition to their FBI statements above, particularly in respect to Sarah Stanton, lest we forget, her fellow building employee Mr. Frazier (Buell Wesley) describes her as heavy-set. Please note that ScarfLady is not ---->
*Buell Wesley Frazier's FBI sworn statement (3-11-64) makes reference to a physical description of Sarah Stanton: "I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and... "There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."
These are just some points tp take into consideration when making every good faith effort to correctly identify ScarfLady.
LR Trotter Wrote:For lack of a better term, "ScarfLady" is used due to her wearing a head scarf/bandana, and also wearing a dark coat, as she is seen on the upper step/landing of the TSBD main entrance portal some minutes after DealeyPlaza shooting that fatally wounded JFK and seriously wounded JBC. I have yet to see her properly identified, but she appears to be seeking entrance into the building, as BillyNolanLovelady appears to be looking on from a lower step. So, for clarification, is she an employee of the TSBD building? And, can she be properly identified?
We may have to take a couple of things into consideration as you continue to seek to identify this woman, especially if you have narrowed down your choices to Pauline Sanders and Sarah Stanton. I'll have to read through some material later today, but I'm almost certain--given the time of the photograph shown--Pauline Sanders had already returned to her office desk on an upper floor of the building; and, in regards to Mrs. Stanton (RIP), she may be ruled out as I believe Billy Nolan Lovelady made reference to her as the woman shading her eyes from the Sun, where in that particular reference the lady in question actually shading her eyes is much heavier than "ScarfLady". Again, I'll make a good faith effort to double-back here later today to share some specifics on the points I've shared. Enjoy your day.
BillyNolanLovelady said what? Can you provide the quote where he referenced the lady shading her eyes being Ms SarahDeanStanton?
Alan Ford Wrote:Let's take some things in consideration in respect to Pauline Sanders and/or Sarah Stanton as potential candidates for ScarfLady.
Let's begin with their respective FBI statements:
Sarah Stanton (11-23-63 FBI report, CD7 p.20) "Sarah Stanton...advised that she is employed in the second floor office of the Texas School Book Depository...and at about 12:30 on November 22, 1963, she was standing on the front steps as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions; however, she did not know where they came from and immediately went into the building, caught the elevator, and went to the second floor offices, and into the office of the Southwestern Publishing Company, located there, to try to look out the window and see what was happening. She then went to the restroom and later returned to her desk."
Pauline Sanders ((3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) ) "At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the presidential motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository. To the best of my recollection I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and although I knew him by sight as an employee of the building I did not know him by name and had never spoken to him at any time. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository Building at any time on the morning of November 22, 1963. After the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island in front of the Depository Building to see what had happened. I remained there a moment and then returned to the Depository Building through the main entrance. I then walked to the second floor where I usually worked."
As we have read, both Sanders and Stanton by their own FBI sworn statements shared above immediately remove themselves off/away from the front entrance long before ScarfLady is captured on film some 15-17 minutes later. Plenty of strange activity out on those steps that fateful afternoon. A 55 year old woman (Sanders) and a 41 year old woman (Stanton) immediately return inside of a building where supposedly shots just came from (one would think they were old enough to know better).
In addition to their FBI statements above, particularly in respect to Sarah Stanton, lest we forget, her fellow building employee Mr. Frazier (Buell Wesley) describes her as heavy-set. Please note that ScarfLady is not ---->
*Buell Wesley Frazier's FBI sworn statement (3-11-64) makes reference to a physical description of Sarah Stanton: "I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and... "There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."
These are just some points tp take into consideration when making every good faith effort to correctly identify ScarfLady.
If you wish to dispute my expressed conclusion, please properly identify ScarfLady, as pictured at about 12:50pm CST on 11/22/'63, on the TSBD Building entrance steps/landing, along with the proper identification of Ms SarahDeanStanton and Ms PaulineRebmanSanders at about 12:30Pm CST on 11/22/'63 among the occupants of the TSBD Building entrance landing.
As you referenced BuellWesleyFrazier's comment regarding building employee "Sarah", you should also find his comment about speaking to her on the landing near the time of the fatal wounding of JFK, and serious wounding of JBC, just after Ms GloriaCalvery(sp?) returning to the entrance area and telling what she had seen.
05-07-2017, 07:45 PM (This post was last modified: 06-07-2017, 03:37 AM by Alan Ford.)
LR Trotter Wrote:
Alan Ford Wrote:
LR Trotter Wrote:For lack of a better term, "ScarfLady" is used due to her wearing a head scarf/bandana, and also wearing a dark coat, as she is seen on the upper step/landing of the TSBD main entrance portal some minutes after DealeyPlaza shooting that fatally wounded JFK and seriously wounded JBC. I have yet to see her properly identified, but she appears to be seeking entrance into the building, as BillyNolanLovelady appears to be looking on from a lower step. So, for clarification, is she an employee of the TSBD building? And, can she be properly identified?
We may have to take a couple of things into consideration as you continue to seek to identify this woman, especially if you have narrowed down your choices to Pauline Sanders and Sarah Stanton. I'll have to read through some material later today, but I'm almost certain--given the time of the photograph shown--Pauline Sanders had already returned to her office desk on an upper floor of the building; and, in regards to Mrs. Stanton (RIP), she may be ruled out as I believe Billy Nolan Lovelady made reference to her as the woman shading her eyes from the Sun, where in that particular reference the lady in question actually shading her eyes is much heavier than "ScarfLady". Again, I'll make a good faith effort to double-back here later today to share some specifics on the points I've shared. Enjoy your day.
BillyNolanLovelady said what? Can you provide the quote where he referenced the lady shading her eyes being Ms SarahDeanStanton?
Good afternoon, Mr. Trotter (well, at least here in New York)
All the same, in respect to BNL making reference to Sarah Stanton, it was actually Mr. Frazier (Buell Wesley) who shared her physical attributes/description. That said, though I'm on lunch break void of my notes and own personal computer at this time, BNL may have made reference to Sarah Stanton as "that lady shading her eyes...she works on the 2nd floor" (that particular instance came when BNL was laying claim to being Doorway Man, and simply pointed out to the journalist (cannot recall his name at the moment) of the New York Herald-Tribune his image in the famous Altgen's 6 photo.
Now, in fairness to you or anyone else reading along, Mr. Trotter, I readily admit his singling her out doesn't necessarily mean she is Sarah Stanton; however, when one looks at that Altgen's 6 photo the person shading her eyes is a bit short and portly, heavy-set. In addition, as referenced by Mr. Frazier (Buell Wesley) a heavy-set woman named "Sarah" worked on the 2nd floor. Given that all of these folks stood together that afternoon, it's a safe bet that both men spoke of the same lady who worked on the 2nd floor (unless of course, further research can bear out that there was more than one heavy-set, 40ish-something lady working on the 2nd floor. I do not have time at the moment, but in good faith I'll peek at my CE 1381 notes later this evening, Mr. Trotter and determine if other women per their statements can or cannot be eliminated as BNL's "that lady shading her eyes".
Of course, as you know, Mr. Trotter, a great many of them that afternoon stood along the sidewalk much further away from the entrance steps, where Mr. Frazier (Buell Wesley) and BNL shared physical space with Sarah Stanton, who may have shared via small talk before the parade got underway that she worked up on the same floor they both evoked when making their references to a woman matching a similar physical description as detailed by Mr. Frazier (Buell Wesley) and as seen in Altgen's 6 as well...
Altgen's Six photo (lady shading eyes on bottom right)
Please note her full, bloated face as oppose to "ScarfLady's" more gaunt features. Also of note is this women's light clothing, which also sets her apart from the darker clothing worn in contrast by "ScarfLady".
Recap: Only Mr. Frazier (Buell Wesley) actually shares a physical description of "heavy-set" Sarah who worked on the 2nd floor. "ScarfLady" is nowhere near heavy-set. Unless there's two heavy-set Sarah's working on the same floor, I believe these gentlemen (Frazier and Lovelady) have nailed her down.
Alan Ford Wrote:Let's take some things in consideration in respect to Pauline Sanders and/or Sarah Stanton as potential candidates for ScarfLady.
Let's begin with their respective FBI statements:
Sarah Stanton (11-23-63 FBI report, CD7 p.20) "Sarah Stanton...advised that she is employed in the second floor office of the Texas School Book Depository...and at about 12:30 on November 22, 1963, she was standing on the front steps as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions; however, she did not know where they came from and immediately went into the building, caught the elevator, and went to the second floor offices, and into the office of the Southwestern Publishing Company, located there, to try to look out the window and see what was happening. She then went to the restroom and later returned to her desk."
Pauline Sanders ((3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) ) "At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the presidential motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository. To the best of my recollection I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and although I knew him by sight as an employee of the building I did not know him by name and had never spoken to him at any time. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository Building at any time on the morning of November 22, 1963. After the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island in front of the Depository Building to see what had happened. I remained there a moment and then returned to the Depository Building through the main entrance. I then walked to the second floor where I usually worked."
As we have read, both Sanders and Stanton by their own FBI sworn statements shared above immediately remove themselves off/away from the front entrance long before ScarfLady is captured on film some 15-17 minutes later. Plenty of strange activity out on those steps that fateful afternoon. A 55 year old woman (Sanders) and a 41 year old woman (Stanton) immediately return inside of a building where supposedly shots just came from (one would think they were old enough to know better).
In addition to their FBI statements above, particularly in respect to Sarah Stanton, lest we forget, her fellow building employee Mr. Frazier (Buell Wesley) describes her as heavy-set. Please note that ScarfLady is not ---->
*Buell Wesley Frazier's FBI sworn statement (3-11-64) makes reference to a physical description of Sarah Stanton: "I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and... "There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."
These are just some points tp take into consideration when making every good faith effort to correctly identify ScarfLady.
If you wish to dispute my expressed conclusion, please properly identify ScarfLady, as pictured at about 12:50pm CST on 11/22/'63, on the TSBD Building entrance steps/landing, along with the proper identification of Ms SarahDeanStanton and Ms PaulineRebmanSanders at about 12:30Pm CST on 11/22/'63 among the occupants of the TSBD Building entrance landing.
As you referenced BuellWesleyFrazier's comment regarding building employee "Sarah", you should also find his comment about speaking to her on the landing near the time of the fatal wounding of JFK, and serious wounding of JBC, just after Ms GloriaCalvery(sp?) returning to the entrance area and telling what she had seen.
I'm not making any effort to dispute your conclusions, Mr. Trotter. On the contrary, I'm trying to work with you in establishing "ScarfLady's" actual identity. That said, given Mr. Frazier's physical description alone eliminates Mrs. Stanton. Truth be told, where it concerns the 55 year old Pauline Sanders, I'm not so sure she isn't "ScarfLady" (but have to go with her FBI sworn statement for now that she cleared the zone immediately).
Begs the question, Did she have to be elsewhere to aid in orchestrating the guilt of an innocent man?
I honestly do not know, but if I had to choose between Pauline Sanders (55) or Mrs. Stanton (41), I'd go with the former as "ScarfLady". But her own FBI sworn statement is telling us otherwise. Again, I'm here to work with you, Mr. Trotter (the truth is beautiful no matter the source), and I'm convinced that's all you seek.
I managed to review my CE 1381 notes earlier this evening. A couple of key points culled from that exercise: there was only one female within that historical record named "Sarah", so suffice it to say Mr. Frazier (Buell Wesley) wasn't talking about someone else when he detailed Sarah Stanton's physical description as heavy-set; and we both can clearly see "ScarfLady" isn't heavy-set.
Again, if I had to personally choose between Pauline Sanders (55) and Sarah Stanton (41) for being "ScarfLady" I'd choose Mrs. Sanders; however, her own FBI sworn statement shared above refutes this (asserting that she was already back inside and upstairs on the 2nd floor in her office long before the photo image of "ScarfLady" appears some 15-17 minutes later outside on the entrance landing.
I'm just as curious as you are about the actual identity of "ScarfLady". I've noted in the Martin and Hughes film that a shadowy figure appears just behind her. He is wearing a steel hat and a light clothing uniform of sorts. I believe this gentleman could be Howard Brennan, who confirmed that Oswald's clothes on the day of the assassination had not resembled those of the gunman he saw in the 6th floor window. Could the woman in question, "ScarfLady", have accompanied him to watch the parade that afternoon and simply joined him up on those steps while he was awaiting questioning from the DPD?
Any thoughts, ideas, Mr. Trotter? I'm open to learning. The truth is a good thing, something to treasure no matter its source. Enjoy the rest of your week should our electronic paths not cross again until this weekend. Carpe Diem!
I managed to review my CE 1381 notes earlier this evening. A couple of key points culled from that exercise: there was only one female within that historical record named "Sarah", so suffice it to say Mr. Frazier (Buell Wesley) wasn't talking about someone else when he detailed Sarah Stanton's physical description as heavy-set; and we both can clearly see "ScarfLady" isn't heavy-set.
Again, if I had to personally choose between Pauline Sanders (55) and Sarah Stanton (41) for being "ScarfLady" I'd choose Mrs. Sanders; however, her own FBI sworn statement shared above refutes this (asserting that she was already back inside and upstairs on the 2nd floor in her office long before the photo image of "ScarfLady" appears some 15-17 minutes later outside on the entrance landing.
I'm just as curious as you are about the actual identity of "ScarfLady". I've noted in the Martin and Hughes film that a shadowy figure appears just behind her. He is wearing a steel hat and a light clothing uniform of sorts. I believe this gentleman could be Howard Brennan, who confirmed that Oswald's clothes on the day of the assassination had not resembled those of the gunman he saw in the 6th floor window. Could the woman in question, "ScarfLady", have accompanied him to watch the parade that afternoon and simply joined him up on those steps while he was awaiting questioning from the DPD?
Any thoughts, ideas, Mr. Trotter? I'm open to learning. The truth is a good thing, something to treasure no matter its source. Enjoy the rest of your week should our electronic paths not cross again until this weekend. Carpe Diem!
If in fact you have made a conclusion as to the proper identification of "ScarfLady", just make your case. I made no request for you to work with me, nor do I need you to tell me what I see. You mentioned what BillyNolanLovelady might have said? And in this post you mentioned BuellWesleyFrazier talking about SarahDeanStanton. He also stated that he spoke to Sarah just after the assassination shooting at 12:30pm. So, she had to be there at that time, and could have stayed a few minutes and/or returned later. But, where was she?
​In any event, I stand by my thoughts as posted.
