At last: Shickshinny Knights of Malta linked to the Draper/Vonsiatsky Condon ManCand crowds

[Helen Reyes]

The Log(ic) Named Jo(e) was Buried at Plymouth Rock.

Shirer says von Stauffie had trembling knees and the thing happened that day not because of an allignment of the stars or dates that shall live in infamy, but because the wolf was in his lair and the football was handy, and something about an earlier parade being cancelled due to rain, and something about some of the team not being informed, and failing to turn out to the field, but perhaps it was the same old fear with all the Hitlerite anti-Hitlerite coupsters, the time was never right until the war was over, the stars never alligned until they all came together at Nuremberg, where much violin of a baleful, woeful dirge was heard, and yet the football team still felt better for not tackling the Wolves that day, although they could've, but perhaps harp strings are preferable to impromptu open-air piano recitals.

Can I pass for CIA yet?

[John Bevilaqua]

John, are you suggesting that Helen Reyes is some sort of psyops operative? Is that the reason you use the unreasonable term RH/NoP PsyOps to describe her?

I feel quite strongly that attacking/misrepresenting other researchers and members of this forum contravenes the forum rules and I wish to direct your attention to the forums decorum and rules of engagement thread HERE, and in particular draw your attention to item 1. (in the event you haven't read them already).

They are strictly adhered to. I assure you.

Let us, therefore, continue this very interesting and intriguing thread without further disruption and/or objectionable terms/descriptions being used henceforward.

David, Lighten up already. Helen and I have been joking and cajoling for days now, even though you have not noticed it, and everything is just perfectly copasetic. She always gets the HR/CryOps (moaning and groaning award) whenever she goes to the "wailing wall" of words as she calls it in order to plow through all the excessive verbiage that I posted there. Sheesh, already. And she used the "unreasonble term" as you call it, HR/NoP herself first and she used it as a joke about herself. NoP stands for Null Operation or Nothing. Your complaint is itself a Null Operation since there is nothing there. Now get a grip and keep posting. And CryOps, my term, just Rhymes with PsyOps. Please no more further artificial disruptions, we were having fun and you are just an interloper and a voyeur on our fun and games. Thank you very much. Are you a Moderator or something? You know once someone actually filed a "sexual harassment charge against me, on behalf of another person" and she just laughed it off and told the investigator, hey I really like the guy, I wish he would make a sexual advance. The 3rd party sexual harassment filer was sent packing to an early retirement after he was told that there is no such thing as a 3rd party sexual harassment charge. And there is no such thing as a 3rd party "objectionable terms/descriptions" charge either. Objectionable is in the eye of the beholder. I even gave her the Jay/Lo booty shake logo and she said smirks were given. Unless Helen files or filed such a charge it is a Null Operation, for God's sake. Get a grip on yourself already. And please cease and desist with these preposterous disruptions to my otherwise excellent and cogent threads. It is quite disruptive and annoying to have some voyeur interloping on inside jokes.

I think that you are actually "attacking/misrepresenting other researchers"
like me, for instance, in this case. Apology accepted if it is ever proffered.
Sheesh.

To quote:

"Let us, therefore, continue this very interesting and intriguing thread without further disruptions, voyeuristic and gratuitous comments and/or unwarranted charges or accusations being made against 3rd parties, or any objectionable terms/descriptions or imagined characterizations being used or applied to researchers henceforward."

You just broke the forum rules by warning/threatening me about allegedly or purportedly breaking these very same forum rules. How ironic. Thank you very much.

[John Bevilaqua]

The Log(ic) Named Jo(e) was Buried at Plymouth Rock.

Shirer says von Stauffie had trembling knees and the thing happened that day not because of an allignment of the stars or dates that shall live in infamy, but because the wolf was in his lair and the football was handy, and something about an earlier parade being cancelled due to rain, and something about some of the team not being informed, and failing to turn out to the field, but perhaps it was the same old fear with all the Hitlerite anti-Hitlerite coupsters, the time was never right until the war was over, the stars never alligned until they all came together at Nuremberg, where much violin of a baleful, woeful dirge was heard, and yet the football team still felt better for not tackling the Wolves that day, although they could've, but perhaps harp strings are preferable to impromptu open-air piano recitals.

Can I pass for CIA yet?

Shirer was a dilettante and he did not know my Great Uncle Klaus or those in the White Rose Society like my relatives did. That date was chosen by the team with a purpose and to make a point. The Wolf's meeting with his Cubs in the room with the heavy desk was scheduled well in advance and that was the agreed upon target date, Ms. NOPstradamus.

The 88 mm cannon was also a tribute to the Wolf because of that same 8/8 date. The fact that a piano has 88 keys was used to design the hanging game. The 8 Generals had to climb 8 steps to the gallows and then they were hung with "piano wire" with 88 Keys. 8/8 means "Heil Hitler" to neo-Nazis, every law enforcement person in the world knows that now thanks to me. That is why Manson chose 8/8 and why Nixon resigned on 8/8 and why Bernard Klassen chose 8/8 and why Hitler chose 8/8.

So tell me what else was on the front page of the N.Y. Times the day after the Nazi Rocket Scientist landed a Man on the Moon on July 20, 1969 using Apo11o 11, at 11:00 pm?

Gee? 11/11/11 what does that mean in Nazi folklore and date significance? Let me think what happened on a famous date in history related to the Nazis war efforts on 11/11.... Hmmm? This is gonna be a tough one. Two Taco Bells to the winner. Hmmm.... 11/11 gimmie a hint already. Do you give up and wave the white flag? Well so did the Germans, see? But only once and never again? OK there is your hint, see.

You know Cordells, Cabells, Cabals, Cordbells, Cordons, Gordons, Mortons, Cords, Fords, Gourds, Boards, Wards, Fiords, Cards, Curds, Oscar Meyers, Cord Meyers, Herb Meyers, Mike Meyers whatever, all sounds the same to me and to you, too. LOL. And no, you do not sound like CIA to me but only a classic example of "the tip-of-the-tongue phenomenon" studied so long and hard by B. F. Skinner at Harvard. Peck here, said Skinner and so they did. Early Skinner type techniques and Pavlovian techniques were used in Harbin, Manchuria. Or maybe he just stole these techniques and wrote them up as his own, whichever happened first? Skinner as a plagiarizer? Say it ain't so. I know that Hans Eysenck stole MK/ULTRA secrets and gave them to Wickliffe Draper who awarded him with Pioneer Fund projects and contracts. "Off with his head.", said Draper. "Raymond, why don't you play a little solitaire?"
Lee Harvey, nice name. Let's use Lee Harvey Oswald then, OK?. And so it was done. The rest is history.

Hello, my name is Earle. Earle Cabell that is. And my brother General Charles Cabell was a traitor according to JFK so he said "Off with his head and fired him and Allen Dulles long after Acheson and Truman offed Willoughby and
MacArthur." Then I lost my head so I changed the parade route so you could get your damn fool head shot off instead by the anti-JFK Cabal. "Off with his head!" said the Queen of Hearts was it? Yes it was. The Queen of Hearts in both MK/ULTRA, in the movie, and for The Manchurian Candidate meant: "Off with his head!" Yep, it did. Sort of like Tarot Cards. You show an MK/ULTRA Candidate the Queen of Hearts and he/she goes into "kill on sight mode" kinda like Luis Castillo's alphabetic keys. And "Through the (Queen's) Looking Glass" is very much the same as "Rey Lenses, Eh?" "Through the King's Lenses, huh?" Just kidding as you know.

And yes, Prouty should have been ridden out of town on the Tar and Feathers Log all the way back to Plymouth Rock courtesy of Jay-Lo. Who is Joe? You are good, Helen, with those NOPstraDamus word plays. I am in awe. You coulda been so much more than just a dilettante. And you have time on your wrists so why not time on your hands? Do you watch Oprah or not? <grin>

Didja figger out who else was front page news in the N.Y. Times and how the Nazi Rocket Scientists took away "JFK's" so called moon shot glory and gave it back to the Nazis? And how they smeared more egg in the face of all the Kennedys on exactly the same night as the Moon Landing?
Democracy's plot on Hitler failed on July 20th and the Nazis plot against (..... .......) [fill in the blanks] also failed on a July 20th exactly and precisely 25 years later. And that other NY Times reported event also happened at 11:00 pm at the exact moment that the Astronauts touched down on the virgin moon soil. Almost contemporaneously, simultaneously and in a synchronized ballet. "Inventing Accuracy", said Charles Draper of Draper Labs. Heil Hitler said the Nazi Rocket Scientists as they "touched down on the Moon." Heil Hitler said the Massachusetts Vacation Island's Dunking Stool Conspirators. Who was in the dunking stool and who got keel hauled? Heil Hiter said Charles Manson as he killed Sharon Tate exactly 25 years after Hitler snuffed the Generals. Exactly. Heil Hitler said Richard Nixon as he resigned. Heil Hitler said Bernard Klassen of Revilo Oliver's Church of the Creator as he went to join his hero on 8/8/94 was it? Heil Hitler said Hitler on 8/8/1944. 8/8 8/8 8/8

I asked you to just suspend disbelief for just a moment. That moment has just passed.

[John Bevilaqua]

The Log(ic) Named Jo(e) was Buried at Plymouth Rock.

Shirer says von Stauffie had trembling knees and the thing happened that day not because of an allignment of the stars or dates that shall live in infamy, but because the wolf was in his lair and the football was handy, and something about an earlier parade being cancelled due to rain, and something about some of the team not being informed, and failing to turn out to the field, but perhaps it was the same old fear with all the Hitlerite anti-Hitlerite coupsters, the time was never right until the war was over, the stars never alligned until they all came together at Nuremberg, where much violin of a baleful, woeful dirge was heard, and yet the football team still felt better for not tackling the Wolves that day, although they could've, but perhaps harp strings are preferable to impromptu open-air piano recitals.

Can I pass for CIA yet?

Sure, if you want to. Ironically enough Wick Draper's uncle, Gen. William F. Draper, II was in charge of de-Nazification of Germany and he did just the opposite. And the Regnery Press crowd from William Regnery, yet another America Firster isolationist, made tons of money not only on Holocaust Revision and Holocaust Denial literature but on books about exonerating convicted Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg. There is big money to be made on anti-Semitism and they just cashed in on it. Then they published Robert Morrow's JFK pablum like Betrayal, First Hand Knowledge and one other title.

Morrow deserves to be debunked and he is dead anyway so he can not be either libeled or slandered. The same with Prouty who hung out with and is adored by anti-Semites, KKK types and anti-JFK types alike. Later the Regnerys joined in with the Mallons and the Scaifes and the Pews to villify Clinton about the Monica Blewinski incident which was little more than a drop in the bucket or a drop on the dress. The point here is that the FDR coup, the JFK coup and then the Clinton character assassination attempts were all run by a continuous spectrum of pro-Nazis, Fascists and right wing extremists. To state otherwise is to be in total denial. And if someone is going to cite or quote or idolize the Morrows and the Proutys of the world they should be fully aware of their real motivations, their hidden agendas and their true allegiances. Prouty's other publisher was The Liberty Lobby, identified as the biggest publisher of Holocaust Denial and Revisionist materials besides Regnery. Their Institute for Historical Review or IHR even hired Mark Lane, a Jew, to defend the case against Willis Carto, a neo-Nazi, filed by Mel Mermelstein, also Jewish, who won $50,000 from the IHR after proving to Willis Carto that the Holocaust actually did occur. This was made into a movie with Leonard Nimoy as Mermelstein. This is the crowd that Lane and Prouty hang with as well. Welcome to reality.

[John Bevilaqua]

The logical inference is that Oswald was being trained in Taiwan by one of Cline's Manchurian Candidate MK/ULTRA programs. Oswald may have shot Corporal Schrand in the armpit while he was in Taiwan as a demonstration of his prowess as an assassin, I can not recall now. When did Oswald shoot Schrand anway? The only way you can shoot someone in the armpit and into his heart is if his hands are raised straight above his head or if they are clasped behind his neck in the classic prisoner's march pose. Mark Diaz in a presentation penned by someone else, offered gratuitous, duplicitous and inaccurate excuses as to how Schrand was supposedly shot in the armpit after he accidentally dropped his rifle, butt first onto the ground and from that point forward he was, and still is, persona non grata in the JFK investigation.

Wait, when was Oswald in Taiwan? I thought he had been stationed in Okinawa for some reason, but Atsugi is in central Japan, in Yamato in Kanagawa prefecture. Can't find any ref to him being in Okinawa, which is closer to Taiwan, but still a long way off.

Just Google Oswald Taiwan and you would get this entry... Just because you can not find a certain reference does not mean it does not exist. It just means that you haven't searched in all the "right places" with all of the appropriate keywords:

"However, the medical record inconsistencies don’t get any easier to parse. On September 16, 1958 Oswald’s unit leaves Atsugi for work in Ping Tung, Taiwan aboard the USS Skagit. A Marine Corps unit record is called a diary. The event is recorded in the unit diary and Oswald is on that ship—he is mentioned by name. Meanwhile his medical records state during this period he was receiving medical treatment at the base hospital in Atsugi from the time the Skagit leaves throughout much of September of 1958. He was ailing from urethritis to hemorrhoids. It’s hard to comprehend that there are two Oswald’s in the same unit at the same time and place."

It was supposedly during the month of September that Oswald contracted and was treated for this urinary tract disorder (or this STD) and then spent some time being mind controlled or conditioned instead. Certainly a simple case of urethritis and hemorrhoids does not mandate a 30-day stay mostly incommunicado in a base hospital, now does it?

Causes

Urethritis may be caused by bacteria or a virus. The same bacteria that cause urinary tract infections (E. coli) and some sexually transmitted diseases (chlamydia, gonorrhea) can lead to urethritis. Viral causes of urethritis include herpes simplex virus and cytomegalovirus.
Other causes include:
Sensitivity to the chemicals used in spermicides or contraceptive jellies, creams, or foams
Injury
Risks for urethritis include:
High-risk sexual behavior (such as anal sex without a condom)
History of sexually transmitted diseases
Male, ages 20 - 35
Many sexual partners
Young women in their reproductive years
Back to TopSymptoms
In men:
Blood in the urine or semen
Burning pain while urinating (dysuria)
Discharge from penis
Fever (rare)
Frequent or urgent urination
Itching, tenderness, or swelling in penis or groin area
Pain with intercourse or ejaculation
In women:
Abdominal pain
Burning pain while urinating
Fever and chills
Frequent or urgent urination
Pelvic pain
Vaginal discharge
Back to TopExams and Tests
The health care provider will perform a physical examination. In men, the exam will include the abdomen, bladder area, penis, and scrotum. The physical exam may show:
Discharge from the penis
Tender and enlarged lymph nodes in the groin area
Tender and swollen penis
A digital rectal exam will also be performed.
Women will have abdominal and pelvic exams. The health care provider will check for:
Discharge from the urethra
Tenderness of the lower abdomen
Tenderness of the uterus
The following tests may be done:
Complete blood count (CBC)
C-reactive protein test
Pelvic ultrasound (women only)
Pregnancy test (women only)
Urinalysis and urine cultures
Tests for gonorrhea, chlamydia, and other sexually-transmitted diseases
Back to TopTreatment
The goals of therapy are to:
Improve symptoms
Prevent the spread of infection
Eliminate the cause of infection
Antibiotic therapy should target the bacteria causing the infection. In some cases, antibiotics may need to be given through a vein (by IV). You may take pain relievers (including pyridium, which works on the urinary tract) along with antibiotics.
People with urethritis who are being treated should avoid sex or use condoms during sex. If an infection is the cause of the inflammation, your sexual partner must also be treated.
Urethritis caused by trauma or chemical irritants is treated by avoiding the source of injury or irritation.
Back to TopOutlook (Prognosis)
With the correct diagnosis and treatment, urethritis usually clears up without any complications. However, urethritis can lead to permanent damage to the urethra (scar tissue called urethral stricture) and other urinary organs in both men and women.
Back to TopPossible Complications
Men with urethritis are at risk for the following complications:
Cystitis
Epididymitis
Orchitis
Pyelonephritis
Prostatitis
Urethral stricture
Women with urethritis are at risk for the following complications:
Cervicitis
Cystitis
Ectopic pregnancy
Fertility problems
Miscarriage
Pelvic inflammatory disease (PID)
Pregnancy complications
Pyelonephritis
Salpingitis (infection of the ovaries)
Back to TopWhen to Contact a Medical Professional
Call your health care provider if you have symptoms of urethritis.
Back to TopPrevention
Some causes of urethritis may be avoided with good personal hygiene and by practicing safer sexual behaviors such as monogamy (one sexual partner only) and using condoms.

[Helen Reyes]

For the record (John can edit this out of his post, but that would be silly), first use was here:

[LOL] Stop the wailing or you will get the cryptonym of HR/CryOps instead of HR/PsyOps. <grin> See if you can pick out the dozen OSJs in the article just for fun then I will link them back into ManCand.

Yep, you got it basically. Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews.

PsyOps are a slippery thing, open to a lot of definitions, from influencing opinion to deception to whatever. I have to admit that their complexity precludes my participation, you'd need a supercomputer to trace all the lines of influence involved nowadays, if you could even find the source of the influence. My epistemology has to function at the personal level, because I don't have a team working for me, and I am not part of a team. I have to look mainly at arguments and evidence, not the personalities offering them, and accept or reject on their own merits. I see how it would be possible to perceive deep divisions on this forum, and how it would seem possible to exploit them to sow dischord or dispersal, but if such a thing began to happen, I would have to assume someone on the forum struck a real nerve somewhere, to draw that kind of attention. It's interesting to speculate, but we should be careful not to say things that can't be unsaid. End of sermon.

And bad answer John, the correct answer to "Can I pass for CIA now?" should have been "Yes, you cant."

[John Bevilaqua]

For the record (John can edit this out of his post, but that would be silly), first use was here:

[LOL] Stop the wailing or you will get the cryptonym of HR/CryOps instead of HR/PsyOps. <grin> See if you can pick out the dozen OSJs in the article just for fun then I will link them back into ManCand.

Yep, you got it basically. Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews.

PsyOps are a slippery thing, open to a lot of definitions, from influencing opinion to deception to whatever. I have to admit that their complexity precludes my participation, you'd need a supercomputer to trace all the lines of influence involved nowadays, if you could even find the source of the influence. My epistemology has to function at the personal level, because I don't have a team working for me, and I am not part of a team. I have to look mainly at arguments and evidence, not the personalities offering them, and accept or reject on their own merits. I see how it would be possible to perceive deep divisions on this forum, and how it would seem possible to exploit them to sow dischord or dispersal, but if such a thing began to happen, I would have to assume someone on the forum struck a real nerve somewhere, to draw that kind of attention. It's interesting to speculate, but we should be careful not to say things that can't be unsaid. End of sermon.

And bad answer John, the correct answer to "Can I pass for CIA now?" should have been "Yes, you cant."

LOL. You are right about that quote on striking a nerve and drawing attention. In the past 10-15 years I have been deliberately sought out and then approached several times by those from "the opposition" not posting on this forum or any other ones that I frequent, so these comments should be good to go here and they need to be documented for the public record. Two younger members of Art Jones' America First neo-Nazi group out of Chicago, pictured in Old Nazis, the New Right and the Republican Party at a protest rally run by Art Jones. (only known as Mike and Greg) A friend of Barb LaMonica sketched one of them on her notepad and she confirmed with almost 100% certainty that my identification of him in the picture was correct. Later the grandson of Gerald Lyman Kenneth Smith himself, who identified himself as Kenneth Smith from West Virginia befriended me in Dallas in 1993 or 1994 and then casually asked me: "Boy some of your stuff is really good. Where do you get all your information about the right wing anyway?" Being naturally suspicious, I refused to answer his questions and asked him to show me some identification which was at least credible. John Newman and one of his friends interviewed him in Dallas and determined that his trumped up cover story of alleged extensive inside information implicating the CIA was full of holes and B.S. He testified before the ARRB but was found to be lacking in credibility and his testimony was never officially published. To me he sounded two-sheets to the wind as if he were not playing with a full deck. In Washington, DC, maybe 1994 or 1995 two self-described anarchists confronted myself, my wife and my daughter at the Vietnam War Memorial after my presentation, and threatened me with retaliation against my family (in private) if I continued to pursue my investigative leads against the right wing and my confrontational attacks on a certain C.O.P.A. presenter who is now long since deceased. I immediately responded in kind and have not heard from either of them since. So you can see that there are some who just do not want their friends, relatives and associates to be subjected to such close scrutiny and for very good reasons, too. End of story.

Helen, I can not believe that I have intentionally offended you in any way, shape or form. If I have please respond to me with a PM describing exactly what I said or did to offend you or to cause such consternation to others who think I may have offended you. Hey if the Jay-Lo bubbles icon did not get to you, what else could possibly penetrate that kevlar-like exterior?

[Dawn Meredith]

I think it is just idle dreamers and naive amateurs who still believe that there is something remaining, hiding in some deep hidden archive which will reveal the identities of the conspirators. Like some sort of "smoking document" or whatever. Dream on. The investigative methodologies employed by those like James Richards, Dick Russell, Mae Brussel and Bill Turner as well as myself seem to produce the most accurate results. You have to talk with real people, and take their evidence with a very jaundiced eye and then put it together with others who can offer REAL first person evidentiary tidbits.

I am quite certain that Peter's suggestion was meant with the best of intentions and I know for a fact that his long research in these areas is worthy of the best of us.

I am also a fan of Prouty for all sorts of reasons. This thread is not the place to air these sorts of remarks, I think.

I feel we must all be very mindful of how we word our posts so as not to cause unwitting offense.

John: Perhaps no smoking gun per se, but many researchers have unearthed invaluable nuggets via the hundereds of thousands of documents released pursuant to the formation of the Assassinations Records Review Board (AARB). David Talbot and James Douglas found much to aid them in their respective books Brothers and JFK and The Unspeakable. James Bamford, (Body Of Secrets) uncovered the bombshell Operation Northwoods. So I must take issue with you regarding the JFK assassination documents. Perhaps we will never learn the identies of exactly who ordered the hit, but we can make some very educated guesses. More importantly, I believe, is to understand "why he died and why it matters". Douglas' work answers that question once and for all, imho.

Besides if there was nothing of value in the hidden records why lock them up for seventy five years to begin with?
Dawn

[Dawn Meredith]

John, are you suggesting that Helen Reyes is some sort of psyops operative? Is that the reason you use the unreasonable term RH/NoP PsyOps to describe her?

I feel quite strongly that attacking/misrepresenting other researchers and members of this forum contravenes the forum rules and I wish to direct your attention to the forums decorum and rules of engagement thread HERE, and in particular draw your attention to item 1. (in the event you haven't read them already).

They are strictly adhered to. I assure you.

Let us, therefore, continue this very interesting and intriguing thread without further disruption and/or objectionable terms/descriptions being used henceforward.

David, Lighten up already. Helen and I have been joking and cajoling for days now, even though you have not noticed it, and everything is just perfectly copasetic. She always gets the HR/CryOps (moaning and groaning award) whenever she goes to the "wailing wall" of words as she calls it in order to plow through all the excessive verbiage that I posted there. Sheesh, already. And she used the "unreasonble term" as you call it, HR/NoP herself first and she used it as a joke about herself. NoP stands for Null Operation or Nothing. Your complaint is itself a Null Operation since there is nothing there. Now get a grip and keep posting. And CryOps, my term, just Rhymes with PsyOps. Please no more further artificial disruptions, we were having fun and you are just an interloper and a voyeur on our fun and games. Thank you very much. Are you a Moderator or something? You know once someone actually filed a "sexual harassment charge against me, on behalf of another person" and she just laughed it off and told the investigator, hey I really like the guy, I wish he would make a sexual advance. The 3rd party sexual harassment filer was sent packing to an early retirement after he was told that there is no such thing as a 3rd party sexual harassment charge. And there is no such thing as a 3rd party "objectionable terms/descriptions" charge either. Objectionable is in the eye of the beholder. I even gave her the Jay/Lo booty shake logo and she said smirks were given. Unless Helen files or filed such a charge it is a Null Operation, for God's sake. Get a grip on yourself already. And please cease and desist with these preposterous disruptions to my otherwise excellent and cogent threads. It is quite disruptive and annoying to have some voyeur interloping on inside jokes.

I think that you are actually "attacking/misrepresenting other researchers"
like me, for instance, in this case. Apology accepted if it is ever proffered.
Sheesh.

To quote:

"Let us, therefore, continue this very interesting and intriguing thread without further disruptions, voyeuristic and gratuitous comments and/or unwarranted charges or accusations being made against 3rd parties, or any objectionable terms/descriptions or imagined characterizations being used or applied to researchers henceforward."

You just broke the forum rules by warning/threatening me about allegedly or purportedly breaking these very same forum rules. How ironic. Thank you very much.

John:
Yes, David is a moderator, as is Jan.

Dawn
(I work full time and lately overtime, so just catching up here).

[John Bevilaqua]

I think it is just idle dreamers and naive amateurs who still believe that there is something remaining, hiding in some deep hidden archive which will reveal the identities of the conspirators. Like some sort of "smoking document" or whatever. Dream on. The investigative methodologies employed by those like James Richards, Dick Russell, Mae Brussel and Bill Turner as well as myself seem to produce the most accurate results. You have to talk with real people, and take their evidence with a very jaundiced eye and then put it together with others who can offer REAL first person evidentiary tidbits.

I am quite certain that Peter's suggestion was meant with the best of intentions and I know for a fact that his long research in these areas is worthy of the best of us.

I am also a fan of Prouty for all sorts of reasons. This thread is not the place to air these sorts of remarks, I think.

I feel we must all be very mindful of how we word our posts so as not to cause unwitting offense.

John: Perhaps no smoking gun per se, but many researchers have unearthed invaluable nuggets via the hundereds of thousands of documents released pursuant to the formation of the Assassinations Records Review Board (AARB). David Talbot and James Douglas found much to aid them in their respective books Brothers and JFK and The Unspeakable. James Bamford, (Body Of Secrets) uncovered the bombshell Operation Northwoods. So I must take issue with you regarding the JFK assassination documents. Perhaps we will never learn the identies of exactly who ordered the hit, but we can make some very educated guesses. More importantly, I believe, is to understand "why he died and why it matters". Douglas' work answers that question once and for all, imho.

Besides if there was nothing of value in the hidden records why lock them up for seventy five years to begin with?
Dawn

All those books are very excellent titles which contributed much background and ancillary information on the JFK case. I just personally prefer the approach of either James Richards, myself or others which involves talking to SOFs and principals in the case who were in a position to know a whole lot straight from the source. His suspects list released about 12-15 years ago matched that of E. Howard Hunt almost perfectly. Now either Howard just parroted the Richards list of front line operatives or they both developed the same list independently and almost contemporaneously.

And that just covered the ground level operational level without any attention paid to the middle tiers and the upper tiers. E.H. Hunt and Richards have been unable to penetrate the hierarchy of the next levels and quite frankly their storm troopers and SOFs don't even know who was at those levels because it was done on a need to know basis only.

Only the usage of an analysis of the Before-the-fact and the After-the-fact reported incidents which involved accidental eavesdropping and fortuitous or gratuitous verbal slip-ups can provide that type of insight IMHO into the middle tier. Almost all of these incidents involved either Army Intel, the Shickshinny Knights of Malta, Eugenicists, anti-Castro Cuban exiles or John Birchers in fact and yet they all remains under-analyzed.

And the upper tier requires proof of means, motive, and opportunity and the wherewithal including proof of suspicious and surreptitious enormous cash flows up front and after the fact, money laundering trails into the South Florida SOFs and the incidents with the Bank of Maryland reported by one of their former Trust Officers with The Boston Metals Processing Company Account in Baltimore, MD which continued apparently well into Iran-Contra money laundering. That requires independent corroboration of money laundering form willing and witting accomplices from a bona fide Iran-Contra whistle blower and I have that too.

And James Richards was finally able to confirm all the facts proffered by the Bank of Maryland Trust Officer about the identity of the CIA bagman, the name of the CIA proprietaries and the majority stockholders and officers of these proprietaries. This info also led me to discover the role of Baldt Anchor and Chain Company in Chester, PA in decades of truly "patriotic" high finance and scrap metal conversion through 2 World Wars, which later became hijacked by rogue CIA agents to be used for Iran-Contra money laundering after its use in the JFK assassination and other events of major importance where normal funding could not be obtained.

The top level was the toughest and it involved not only the major Eugenics families in the USA like the Bushes, the Farishes, the Grays and the Drapers but also their official henchmen and ex-Generals at the Armed Services Committee at the Shickshinny Knights of Malta consisting mostly of arch-Catholic John Birchers with a flair for Fascism and Nazism and a penchant for associating with the White Russian, Ravanchiste ex-Czarist Fascists like Vonsiatsky, Stetsko and de Mohrenschildt who were intricately tied into various Manchurian Candidate mind control and programmed assassination training programs in Manchuoko.

Of course you would need the co-operation of the Dallas based Cabell brothers to handle the parade route and the Dallas P.D. and that entire end of things out of the Mayor's office as well.

Bottom line was that almost everyone involved had been summarily fired, ruined, ridiculed or remonstrated by either Truman or JFK at one time or the other or they were considered rogue agents running their own operations: Otto F. Otepka in the passport office who was Oswald's travel agent and was fired by Dean Rusk and JFK, Allen Dulles on the Warren Commission who was fired by JFK, Charles Willoughby and Douglas MacArthur who were fired by Truman and Dean Acheson, Gen. Charles Cabell who was fired by JFK as a traitor, Cord Meyer who was summarily replaced in the marital bedroom by JFK. The list just goes on and on and on. All of them had very personal and very private reasons for turning into the equivalent of retaliatory and vengeful right wing shooting gallery gang-bangers on a mission. All they needed was some front money from Wickliffe Draper and from The Boston Metals Processing Company and the silent nods from the brothers Dulles, and the vote of a few Senators like James Eastland, J. Strom Thurmond, John Tower, Everett Dirksen, Barry Goldwater, etc. and the clock started ticking on the moment of denouement. The rest is history.

Can the same results be produced in the same timeframe by sifting through the remaining short list of stale and redacted documents hoping to find some little nuggets buried in cobwebs and layers of accumulated dust? I think the answer should be obvious. Was the John Birch Society, SKOM, The American Security Council, The Liberty Lobby or the Anti-Bolshevik Nations dumb enough to leave trails of evidence to be sifted through by researchers? Of course not. Would the CIA or Army Intel or ONI, or DISC or the DIA leave anything of incriminating value around, assuming it was ever put into writing in the first place? No. Of course not.

Can we afford to reveal every detail of every secret or top secret document ever written and placed into the archives of every intelligence agency? No, because that would delight every single anarchist, every foreign agent, every single enemy of the people, every foreign spy and everyone and anyone whose interests are incontrovertibly inimical to those of the USA whether they be domestic or foreign, with or without US Citizenship, and with or without their rabies shots and pedigree papers and bona fides being checked? I really doubt it. Why would anyone think that this is a great idea anyway?

The argument that anything hidden or locked away from accessibility or view must by definition contain something which is either suspicious, illegal, banned, immoral or incriminating is similar to the approach usually taken by beat cops after stopping someone for a traffic violation.

Cop: "Do you mind if I search through that stuff in your car?"

Driver: "Why! Of course I do! It is none of your business."

Cop: "Why, is there something illegal in there like drugs or alcohol or something stolen or incriminating in there?"

Driver: "Of course not. That's a really dumb question."

Cop: "So why can't I take a look?"

Driver: "Cause there is nothing there, and I am saving you the time and the effort and saving taxpayer money, too. Plus you don't have enough probable cause or a search warrant either and I have to take a wicked wizz real bad."

Cop: "Never mind."

This "Inquisitive or Pushy Traffic Cop" argument sounds exactly like the same arguments offered by some regarding the availability of secreted or secluded historical documents.

And quite frankly I would not respond favorably to that approach either.

:congrats: