True sponsors:Texan extremists & Military Industrial compex vs eastern establishment

[Kenneth Kapel]

Is " Torbitt " correct in regard to Permindex and Bloomfield ?

[Seamus Coogan]

Is " Torbitt " correct in regard to Permindex and Bloomfield ?

Bloomfields a little dicey, as he leads it into this world of big oil, organised crime and some utter bollocks-Michael Collins Piper had a hard on for it. All Flammonde did was note the guys ties to the OSS and CIA.

It was really Paris Flammonde who opened up Permindex (after it had been reported by the Italian press) indeed that's the problem. The Torbitt Document came out well after and what it did was proceed to entwine itself around the remnants of Garrisons investigation and Flammondes work. I think Flammonde is probably still the best source for the Permindex stuff. Permindex and the CMC were both operations involving facist stay behinds involved in 'Operation Gladio' a big time CIA-NATO program. The Torbitt document didn't predict any of this. Indeed there's so many versions of it. I wouldn't quote anything from it bar to dispell its bilge. Flammonde later went into some bollocks fields but his JFK stuff in the early part was cool.

Flammonde and Garrison = CIA

Torbitt Document from utterly dubious sources = Every body and kitchen sink bar the CIA. Anybody who thinks Hoover was a plotter needs their heads read quite frankly.

[Jan Klimkowski]

The Torbitt document and Gemstone File reading population of this planet never stop to amuse me.

Seamus - we had a discussion about Prouty and his attitude to the Report From Iron Mountain in the thread here.

I stand by my comments on Prouty's use of Iron Mountain in post #60 here.

Whilst accepting that Iron Mountain was fiction, Prouty may have used it as a means of making certain aspects of elite insider thinking comprehensible to a wider audience.

The Torbitt document is of course fundamentally disinformation, and quite possibly yet another creation of world class agent of chaos, Fred Lee Crisman. See DPF thread here.

However, certain information contained within Torbitt, such as aspects of the Permindex material, may well be of genuine importance. Also, the links from Permindex to what we now know as Gladio.

Torbitt is essentialy disinformation. However, the most effective disinformation is usually marbled with truth, and those flakes of truth can all too easily, and unfortunately, be thrown in the trash.....

[Jan Klimkowski]

Permindex and the CMC were both operations involving facist stay behinds involved in 'Operation Gladio' a big time CIA-NATO program.

Gladio is also Gehlen.

[Seamus Coogan]

The Torbitt document and Gemstone File reading population of this planet never stop to amuse me.

Seamus - we had a discussion about Prouty and his attitude to the Report From Iron Mountain in the thread here.

I stand by my comments on Prouty's use of Iron Mountain in post #60 here.

Whilst accepting that Iron Mountain was fiction, Prouty may have used it as a means of making certain aspects of elite insider thinker comprehensible to a wider audience.

The Torbitt document is of course fundamentally disinformation, and quite possibly yet another creation of world class agent of chaos, Fred Lee Crisman. See DPF thread here.

However, certain information contained within Torbitt, such as aspects of the Permindex material, may well be of genuine importance. Also, the links from Permindex to what we now know as Gladio.

Torbitt is essentialy disinformation. However, the most effective disinformation is usually marbled with truth, and those flakes of truth can all too easily, and unfortunately, be thrown in the trash.....

Cheers Jan.

But I think rather than rely on 'hoaxes' we have a lot of really good stuff out there and that we don't need too speculate on any issues coming from crap like the Torbitt document.

As I've said the Torbitt document did not predict 'Gladio'. It was designed to convolute what Paris Flammonde had discovered and the legacy of the Garrison investigation. It's also been added to over the years. There are no original documents. Kenn Thomas who put the most recent lot together (funnily enough after the revelations of Gladio) also blatantly ripped off quotes about the Torbitt Document that Jim DiEugenio and Peter Dale Scott never ever made.

[Seamus Coogan]

Permindex and the CMC were both operations involving facist stay behinds involved in 'Operation Gladio' a big time CIA-NATO program.

Gladio is also Gehlen.

The Gehlen org was wrapped up in the Gladio operation which was effectively run and funded by the CIA and NATO. How this adds credibility to the Torbitt document is mysterious the role of Gehlen and his links had been well known prior too Torbitt. Indeed I think the English reported on Gehlens group circa 1952 almost 18 years before the Torbitt document came out.

Like I say theres better sources than this garbage!

[Jan Klimkowski]

As I've said the Torbitt document did not predict 'Gladio'.

My understanding is that the "Torbitt document" started circulating in samizdat form circa 1970.

Confirmation of the existence of Gladio and its false flag atrocities committed as part of a Strategy of Tension can probably best be dated to Italian PM Andreotti's speech on October 24, 1990, and Allan Francovich's documentaries first broadcast in 1992.

Mae Brussell identified Gladio here in 1987, without knowing its name, and her "The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination", which contains both Hits and Misses, is an earlier adumbration of linked material.

Rather than predicting Gladio, I would rather frame it as Mae Brussell's work identifying much important material which became yet more important and resonant once the philosophy, MO and deep political support of Operation Gladio (and its other names and manifestations) became public record.

Having said all that, MSM continues to ignore Gladio and Francovich only lasted until 1997 when he suffered a fatal heart attack in Houston airport, Texas...

[Jan Klimkowski]

Permindex and the CMC were both operations involving facist stay behinds involved in 'Operation Gladio' a big time CIA-NATO program.

Gladio is also Gehlen.

The Gehlen org was wrapped up in the Gladio operation which was effectively run and funded by the CIA and NATO. How this adds credibility to the Torbitt document is mysterious the role of Gehlen and his links had been well known prior too Torbitt. Indeed I think the English reported on Gehlens group circa 1952 almost 18 years before the Torbitt document came out.

Like I say theres better sources than this garbage!

Seamus - I think we're at cross purposes here.

You've decided to call Torbitt garbage, and laugh at all those who read it.

I've agreed that Torbitt is largely a work of disinformation. But its appearance circa 1970 in interesting (even if primarily as a psyop), and it does mention Permindex extensively.

Permindex links to what we now know as Gladio.

My conviction is that an understanding of the Strategy of Tension philosophy of Gladio, and its manifestation in false flag atrocities, is absolutely fundamental to understanding the history of the second half of the Twenieth Century.

My point is simple: in trashing Torbitt, it would be wrong to thereby trash the Permindex material - even if there may be better sources for it.

Indeed, I will go further. If Psyop Master Fred Lee Crisman had a hand in shaping Torbitt, perhaps its very purpose was to lead researchers who became disenchanted with Torbitt to abandon investigations of the Permindex tentacles.

[Seamus Coogan]

As I've said the Torbitt document did not predict 'Gladio'.

My understanding is that the "Torbitt document" started circulating in samizdat form circa 1970.

Now this is classic. Two of you have now made the misguided call that in dissing the Torbitt documents that I am somehow dissing the Shaw-Permindex-Gkadio link. I have to ask Jan have you read my previous posts? Well no obviously you haven't.

Let's make this clear. 1970 is at least Two years after it was first published in Italy and Garrison got hold of it in his investigation. It was a year or so after that Paris Flammonde wrote his important piece on the subject. A full year or so the Torbitt document came out. So what does 1970 mean to me Jan?

A big fat nothing.

Confirmation of the existence of Gladio and its false flag atrocities committed as part of a Strategy of Tension can probably best be dated to Italian PM Andreotti's speech on October 24, 1990, and Allan Francovich's documentaries first broadcast in 1992.
Mae Brussell identified Gladio here in 1987, without knowing its name, and her "The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination", which contains both Hits and Misses, is an earlier adumbration of linked material.

Well nope. There had been a lot of stuff going down in Europe since the mid 80's. So what if Brussell doesnt name it? The stuff in Europe was well actually well known if nameless. The Torbitt document or Brussell for that matter didn't predict anything of mass importance, not already known. I also don't like the tone. You don't honestly think I haven't checked up and backed up the dates nor that I know anything about Gladio? Well sorry. I do.

I've simply never used Brussell as a source for any of it.

Rather than predicting Gladio, I would rather frame it as Mae Brussell's work identifying much important material which became yet more important and resonant once the philosophy, MO and deep political support of Operation Gladio (and its other names and manifestations) became public record.

Brussell was nothing unique in this regard, well she was in that she added a conspiratorial touch which as you say is 'hit and miss' but once again 'let's get real'. There were numerous other courageous primary sources coming from French, Italian and English journo's (no they weren't slipped information by the Commies as Helms liked to say) whom had been reporting on this stuff right through out the Cold War. Brussell was not a primary source for this. She never ever said she was either.

Now before you say I am dissing Brussell. Let's get this clear. Read carefully. I like Mae Brussell! She did some good work in particularly on 'The Last Words of Lee Harvey Oswald' She also actually thought the Torbitt documents were likely bogus.

Having said all that, MSM continues to ignore Gladio and Francovich only lasted until 1997 when he suffered a fatal heart attack in Houston airport, Texas...

Yes they do and Francovichs ballsy work shouldn't be tarred by putting the Torbitt document garbage alongside his stuff. Nor should Brussell's opinions of them nor her work be overlooked or clouded because of it either. She made far more valuable contributions than that. As you clearly no.

As for Crisman, man oh man. Who gives a flying retarded shit? Theres evidence of a whole heap of stuff going down with or without Crismans involvement anyhow. In effect the points you have made Jan are precisely why the Torbitt Documents are so bad they leech off the legitimate work of other people. Furthermore, I suggest anybody concerned about the truth email Kenn Thomas and ask him why he felt the need to libel Jim DiEugenio with regards to Torbitt.

[Vasilios Vazakas]

I feel that among the facilitators, in the JFK assassination, were the American, British, Israeli, Dutch, South African, Soviet, and Gehlen intelligence organizations. The elements in these organizations have no loyality except to perpetual war, greed, and Mammon. These groups have also been facilitators in my other ventures, but they still have their own infighting that sometimes delays their plans for ultimute world control. They are like one big brotherhood that knows no loyality except what benefits their own ends. Mr Obama is one of their stooges. Nominated over Hillary because he was perceived as a " peace candidate",even though among Mr Obamas biggest backers were the Chicago Crown family,who are large shareholders in the military industrial complex giant General Dynamics. Needless to say the Crowns are also uber Zionists. Yet the corporate run media would have you belivieve that Obama - Bibi are at war over the Obama plan for Middle Eastern peace, even though Obamas plan it the same plan as the last 2 American administratations,including the neo - con ladden Bush regime, it all a dog and pony show. I know a few folks who think that the Crowns had invovlement in the JFK murder, many of the same people see the Bush family & Halliburton having roles in the events of November 22, 1963.

There is no way that all these groups that you have mentioned above were involved on the assassination. You only add confusion by saying this. It seems that the World and his wife had JFK killed. I will narrow it down according to my humble opinion.
The eastern establishment in cooperation with their partners in the military industrial complex instigated the murder. Dulles and Angleton manipulated the intelligence structure, LBJ new and helped, the Meyer Lansky syndicate along with their CIA partners from the Far East carried out the assassination.
George Brown sold Brown & Root to Halliburton in 1962. They became powerful after the assassination when LBJ gave them the Vietnam contracts. However we do not have any proof that they were involved in the conspiracy. I think that George DeMohrenschildt worked for them at some point. However both in 1963 and 2001 you had a Texan Vice President well connected to Halliburton that were hugely benefited after both events.