In The Shadow of Dallas and LA

[Seamus Coogan]

Hi Charles,

I agree this is a nice internet exchange that is rare these days.

First I want to say that I think the plot and cover-up are two separate things. I agree the people you speak of are the ones who handled the cover-up. The cover up was an institutional project and more complex than the original conspiracy.

The people involved in the plot wanted an invasion of Cuba but this was not to be. I do not think these supranational forces would be involved in the plot in any way whatsoever. I do think they would be involved in the cover up.

As for Morales, I have compiled a somewhat robust "biography" of the man and I have found through separate sources that he was a force not to be messed with.

John Roselli was a close associate of Morales. Organized Crime, which I think you'd agree, is nothing more than a red herring here. Roselli was Jack Ruby's originator.

I just don't see the plot being all that big, otherwise I think it would have come apart by now.

Phil,

I do agree that Ed Lansdale was one of the Prime Movers.

Respectfully yours,

Zach

Dear Zach. Morales was a mean dude. Where he fits into it all is interesting but people forget about the hierarchy of the time. Bill Harvey sent him to work for Shackley from out of the JM-Wave station and it was Shackley whom would be largely responsible for running Morales prior to his departure to Sth East Asia in about 66. Morales also came directly under guys like Dave Phillips whom was effectively running the MJ-12 Op. By 68, the JM Wave Station was done and dusted. Im sure you know this stuff but when people go on about Morales they often put him in a coordination position well above his station. He did have the potential to have been involved in any assassination chaffs be it JFK or RFK however.

[Zach Robertson]

Seamus,
I realize Morales' rank at the time of the assassination was GS 14 and when he "retired" he was a GS 15 at step 8. Technically he was not a super grade officer and technically he had superiors but to say he worked "under" others while at JMWAVE is not quite correct. His CI section was compartmentalized from the rest of WAVE and Morales successfully set up his own intelligence unit with his own trusted "cowboy" PMs. These guys routinely did what they wanted to do despite orders to the contrary and this is documented. Shackley made sure to stay out of Morales' way for the most part. There are still 2 men alive who know about how JMWAVE really worked.

Zach

[Seamus Coogan]

Seamus,
I realize Morales' rank at the time of the assassination was GS 14 and when he "retired" he was a GS 15 at step 8. Technically he was not a super grade officer and technically he had superiors but to say he worked "under" others while at JMWAVE is not quite correct. His CI section was compartmentalized from the rest of WAVE and Morales successfully set up his own intelligence unit with his own trusted "cowboy" PMs. These guys routinely did what they wanted to do despite orders to the contrary and this is documented. Shackley made sure to stay out of Morales' way for the most part. There are still 2 men alive who know about how JMWAVE really worked.

Zach

Oh and tell me do is one of them Brad Ayers? And don't pull this Morales running the show crap I've been around the game to long buddy.

[Zach Robertson]

Oh and tell me do is one of them Brad Ayers? And don't pull this Morales running the show crap I've been around the game to long buddy.

I am very impressed.

[James Lewis]

Seamus, I think you rather underestimate the rank and power of David Morales within the CIA. From the Mary Ferrell Foundation's profile of Morales. Emphasis mine:

David Sanchez Morales, aka "El Indio," worked for the CIA under the cover of Army employment. He was involved in PBSUCCESS, the CIA's 1954 overthrow of the Guatemalan government, and rose to become Chief of Operations at the CIA's large JMWAVE facility in Miami. In that role, he oversaw operations undertaken against the regime of Fidel Castro in Cuba.
Morales was involved in other covert operations of the CIA, reportedly including plots to assassinate Fidel Castro, training intelligence teams supporting the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, the CIA's secret war in Laos and its controversial Operation Phoenix in Vietnam, and the hunting down of Che Guevera in Bolivia.

From Someone Would Have Talked:

It's also clear that like many of the men directly involved with the Bay of Pigs, Morales felt that John Kennedy was a coward and very likely a traitor to his country. Morales expressed his tremendous anger about seeing his friends butchered in remarks to both Carbajal and his lawyer and business partner, Robert Walton.

David Morales felt especially strongly about John Kennedy. At one point while in Walton's office. Morales noticed a small Kennedy ceramic decal and immediately offered to break it into pieces for Walton.

However, on one special evening after approximately eight hours of extremely heavy drinking, Morales went a good deal farther than that. It was in the spring of 1973, five years before his death. Morales entered into a heated exchange with Robert Walton while Reuben Carbajal and Walton's wife listened. The subject was John Kennedy.

At some point, Walton began to talk about himself, his background, his interest in politics and doing volunteer work for Kennedy's campaign. At that point. Morales literally flew off the bed of the hotel room in which they were drinking and started screaming curses against Kennedy and talking about how Kennedy had been responsible for him having to watch all the men he had recruited and trained get wiped out.

Several minutes later after he had worn himself out. Morales sat back on his bed and after a minute of silence simply said to himself, "Well, we took care of that SOB, didn't we?" Not bragging, no bluster, just talking to himself.

When a man of David Morales' rank, position, experience and reputation makes a first person remark about "taking care" of the President of the United States, it deserves to be taken seriously - when the man in question can be shown to have been in the same location at the same time and with an established association with John Martino, a man who confessed to his personal participation in a conspiracy to murder the President, Morales' remarks become extremely significant.

Yes, he ostensibly worked under Shackley, but for the most part, Morales was his own man and did pretty much what he wanted when conditions permitted it. When you couple the above with the fact that he was also one of the main cogs in the CIA's Phoenix Program, it becomes apparent that not only was David Morales not to be trifled with, but he, along with Edward Lansdale, would be the the perfect person to at least help with the planning and operational aspects of assassinating the President. After all, he was once called the CIA's "number one hit man".

[Seamus Coogan]

Seamus, I think you rather underestimate the rank and power of David Morales within the CIA. From the Mary Ferrell Foundation's profile of Morales. Emphasis mine:

David Sanchez Morales, aka "El Indio," worked for the CIA under the cover of Army employment. He was involved in PBSUCCESS, the CIA's 1954 overthrow of the Guatemalan government, and rose to become Chief of Operations at the CIA's large JMWAVE facility in Miami. In that role, he oversaw operations undertaken against the regime of Fidel Castro in Cuba.
Morales was involved in other covert operations of the CIA, reportedly including plots to assassinate Fidel Castro, training intelligence teams supporting the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, the CIA's secret war in Laos and its controversial Operation Phoenix in Vietnam, and the hunting down of Che Guevera in Bolivia.

From Someone Would Have Talked:

It's also clear that like many of the men directly involved with the Bay of Pigs, Morales felt that John Kennedy was a coward and very likely a traitor to his country. Morales expressed his tremendous anger about seeing his friends butchered in remarks to both Carbajal and his lawyer and business partner, Robert Walton.

David Morales felt especially strongly about John Kennedy. At one point while in Walton's office. Morales noticed a small Kennedy ceramic decal and immediately offered to break it into pieces for Walton.

However, on one special evening after approximately eight hours of extremely heavy drinking, Morales went a good deal farther than that. It was in the spring of 1973, five years before his death. Morales entered into a heated exchange with Robert Walton while Reuben Carbajal and Walton's wife listened. The subject was John Kennedy.

At some point, Walton began to talk about himself, his background, his interest in politics and doing volunteer work for Kennedy's campaign. At that point. Morales literally flew off the bed of the hotel room in which they were drinking and started screaming curses against Kennedy and talking about how Kennedy had been responsible for him having to watch all the men he had recruited and trained get wiped out.

Several minutes later after he had worn himself out. Morales sat back on his bed and after a minute of silence simply said to himself, "Well, we took care of that SOB, didn't we?" Not bragging, no bluster, just talking to himself.

When a man of David Morales' rank, position, experience and reputation makes a first person remark about "taking care" of the President of the United States, it deserves to be taken seriously - when the man in question can be shown to have been in the same location at the same time and with an established association with John Martino, a man who confessed to his personal participation in a conspiracy to murder the President, Morales' remarks become extremely significant.

Yes, he ostensibly worked under Shackley, but for the most part, Morales was his own man and did pretty much what he wanted when conditions permitted it. When you couple the above with the fact that he was also one of the main cogs in the CIA's Phoenix Program, it becomes apparent that not only was David Morales not to be trifled with, but he, along with Edward Lansdale, would be the the perfect person to at least help with the planning and operational aspects of assassinating the President. After all, he was once called the CIA's "number one hit man".

Hey Jim. I have not underestimated Morales rank. I own SWHT and I agree with Larry what's the big freaking deal here. But I really hate it when people put words in my mouth. You don't think I don't know this stuff? Give me some more respect please. But if people are going to come at me with say Bradley Ayers (and yes I know Larry used some of him in part for his book) well all I'll say is be careful. He's pals with JF and feeds him all manner of utter garbage. As I suspect guys like Doug Caddy do. But this whole rogue Morales did it BS is what Zach is trying to get at. And it is crap. As you can quite clearly see from the extract in Larry's book.

[Zach Robertson]

x

[Charles Drago]

First I want to say that I think the plot and cover-up are two separate things.

We are in powerful disagreement here.

While a number of elements of the coverup were enacted by entities not involved in the assassination conspiracy, these actions were anticipated by the Facilitators during the planning stages of the event. LHO was the perfect patsy for many reasons -- not the least of which was that he tracked back to highly secret operations (HTLINGUAL is a great example) that would be protected at ALL costs. Including burying evidence relevant to solving the crime of the millennium.

The people involved in the plot wanted an invasion of Cuba but this was not to be. I do not think these supranational forces would be involved in the plot in any way whatsoever. I do think they would be involved in the cover up.

SOME of the people involved in the plot expected an invasion of Cuba to follow the taking of the president. These individuals were used, abused, and offered the choice of moving on to greener pastures opened by the coup or being buried in them. To put it simply, John Kennedy would not have been murdered absent the order given by the supranational forces.

I just don't see the plot being all that big, otherwise I think it would have come apart by now.

It could not have been bigger. Which is why it has not yet come apart.

Phil,

I do agree that Ed Lansdale was one of the Prime Movers.

I won't speak for Phil, but I will note that I don't read anything of the sort in his posts.

Lansdale, if he were involved -- and I'm beginning to have doubts -- was, like Morales, a tool on a belt. A Facilitator.

[Charles Drago]

Seamus,

For the love of God, cool it.

Zach,

Please stay with us.

Charles

[Seamus Coogan]

Somehow I had a double up. Damn it lol my reply is over the page.