Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[Albert Doyle]

Yeah. You and Piper won just like Baden won the SBT debate.

Nope. Baden was just was not worth arguing with since his arguments had no merit. Just like yours and Piper's don't.

And I am not going to spend my time on someone, who as with my experience with Janney, just likes to hear the sound of his own voice. No matter how silly he sounds.

A dodge is a dodge is a dodge. You're dealing squarely in opinion there. This also has nothing to do with Baden or Janney.


You simply can't answer what Piper writes Jim. It has huge merit which is proven in your fear of it as you display here. Any credible seasoned JFK researcher would see the persons and activities cited in Final Judgment are highly credible and represent the main powers concerning the cabal's underground network. I'm sorry.

[Dawn Meredith]

QUOTE=Albert Doyle;59570]

Yeah. You and Piper won just like Baden won the SBT debate.

Nope. Baden was just was not worth arguing with since his arguments had no merit. Just like yours and Piper's don't.

And I am not going to spend my time on someone, who as with my experience with Janney, just likes to hear the sound of his own voice. No matter how silly he sounds.

A dodge is a dodge is a dodge. You're dealing squarely in opinion there. This also has nothing to do with Baden or Janney.


You simply can't answer what Piper writes Jim. It has huge merit which is proven in your fear of it as you display here. Any credible seasoned JFK researcher would see the persons and activities cited in Final Judgment are highly credible and represent the main powers concerning the cabal's underground network. I'm sorry.[/QUOTE]

Please. Give it up you two. Jim and I have had our share of disagreements but I have not seen him show FEAR. MANY "serious credible seasoned JFK researchers" would agree with JIm and the others here and think you and Mark are out to lunch. Ok I need to not read your silly posts.

I agree with Jim : Piper is not worth discussing.

But you and Mark carry on. I would surly hate to see facts or other "serious research" get in your way.

My music studio is calling me.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Yes, you are so right Albert.

Charles, Greg, Dawn, and all of us are just trembling at what the Spotlight sponsored author dug up, even before the ARRB was set up. And that somehow, oh those so many other authors like the ones I mentioned, plus say Mark Lane, Harold Weisberg, Evica et al they all missed that bombshell stuff that Piper was able to discern almost magically.

We are all so afraid of being shown up by Spotlight.

Now please go back and show me how the Mossad figured in any and all of those incidents that were part of the setting up and framing of Oswald prior to the murder.

And then show me how the Mossad then was part of the team that stopped the doctors at Bethesda from doing a full autopsy that night. And show me how the Mossad convinced Hoover to go along with the cover up from the first day.

Its you who are dodging all this.

On the verge of us now being able to piece together what really happened, you want to help throw all of that under the bus and group yourself with a disinfo agent like Rago and a holocaust denying publication like Spotlight. Wow. That will make us all look good next year.

Count me out.

[Albert Doyle]

Albert, of course he hasn't. Like some others here, he just doesn't want to know.

An objective investigator into this case would never dismiss the brinkmanship going on between JFK and Israel over Dimona, and the fact that Kennedy's death was a sudden circuit breaker which ended this deadlock. Nor would an objective investigation dismiss Ruby's close ties to Israel and Lansky. Or LBJ's lifetime devotion to Israel, from Operation Texas in the 1940's, aggressive advocacy on Israel's behalf during the Suez crisis, green light for Dimona, massive military funding increases for the Zionist state during the mid 60's and his disgraceful coverup of the Liberty attack in 1967. An objective researcher would hardly dismiss these links to Israel as 'scraping around a trash bin in an anti-semitic crusade'. If he was searching for the truth, that is.

An objective researcher might also look at other possible links to Israel, like the role played by Julius Scheppes and Sam Bloom for example, the Dallas businessmen who shared both a fierce loyalty to Israel and control of the Dallas Citizens Council. This was the same DCC which organised both the motorcade route (which they refused to change despite the urging of the SS advance man) and the Sunday morning transfer of LHO which of course resulted in his assassination by Jack Ruby.

A researcher with any curiosity at all would look closely at these things, even if just to put them to bed. Unless of course he or she is a gatekeeper.

More likely Jim doesn't want to be gate-kept himself. As a person who depends on public book sales he probably doesn't want to end-up like Piper, even though he is most of the way there because of his commendable work on JFK. I won't chastise Jim because I still admire him as one of the best brains in the business and for being single-handedly responsible for undressing major Lone Nut authors in public. I will note, however, that he doesn't do the same thing with Piper. I'll even be so bold to say he is incapable of doing the same thing with Piper and that's obviously why he doesn't.

While I totally agree with what you write above I must disclaim association with your praising of Rago. I can't understand why a person capable of the deft analysis you do here would commit the error of shooting himself in the foot so badly by praising a person who not only thinks JFK was shot by a man in a police uniform on the Knoll with a handgun, but also suggests Oswald pulled the trigger in the window. I must add, however, that your citation above shows in plain view that this evidence is not outrageous in its suggestion and is perfectly reasonable as part of normal JFK conspiracy discussion. I would ask any of these condemners what was wrong with applying the scrutiny normally applied to these credible conspiracy players cited by Mark above? Surely if you objectively analyze the level of scrutiny applied to any other such people in JFK research, including research done by Jim DiEugenio, you would see these people and their influence are highly scrutinized in any other instance EXCEPT when it comes to Piper. I'm sorry but Mark has won this point in spades and the behavior of persons who are otherwise paragons of Assassination research is disgraceful and embarrassing in its childish level of anti-intellectual, really, street level taunting and unwillingness to apply higher standards of academic scrutiny. Shame. And this isn't Fetzerian protesting either as the material Piper illustrates proves - not to mention the conspicuous avoidance of it by persons who aren't afraid to risk personal credibility by doing so. Again, Piper is almost certainly wrong about Ben Gurion's Sponsorship, however he's dead-on about the underground network and its influence. I'm beginning to understand the monomania some people have towards Israel now. You have to understand that if people are going to predictably feel like David Duke by criticizing Israel directly, and therefore not do it, that CIA would be the first group to hide their evil doings behind that screen. That's their exact modus operandi of letting internal divisions amongst their targets do their dirty work of destroying each other and therefore protecting their doings. That's exactly where CIA would hide their stuff and is exactly where they did. God bless Michael Collins Piper for being brave enough to point it out.



As to Echevarria, to play devil's advocate, back then people used to openly refer to Jewish people as jews. So if Ruby had backed some kind of arms deal involving the conspirators Echevarria might have referred to the backers as jews. However, I don't think so because the backers up to that point were the same people who were backing it all along. They were the training camp, JMWAVE, Hunt, Ferrie, Banister, CIA, Cuban exile regular suspects. So for Echevarria to say "Our new backers" would mean persons other than the previous backers. So these Lansky-affiliated backers were probably the persons being referred to. Now these people could and probably were being used by the sponsors in a main facilitator role. What I'm interested in is that there is a valid and credible trace here of the use of this falling out with Ben Gurion to spark participation in the conspiracy by a very powerful group. Piper proves the legitimacy of this trace in his information. It is hardy "anti-semitic nonsense". The parts, roles, and players are all spelled-out in Final Judgment.



(Note to Mark: Chill on the sneering because that usually earns a quick exit, as does giving credit to wacky theorists)


.

[Albert Doyle]

Now please go back and show me how the Mossad figured in any and all of those incidents that were part of the setting up and framing of Oswald prior to the murder.

And then show me how the Mossad then was part of the team that stopped the doctors at Bethesda from doing a full autopsy that night. And show me how the Mossad convinced Hoover to go along with the cover up from the first day.

Its you who are dodging all this.

On the verge of us now being able to piece together what really happened, you want to help throw all of that under the bus and group yourself with a disinfo agent like Rago and a holocaust denying publication like Spotlight. Wow. That will make us all look good next year.

Count me out.

Quickly, Piper shows how CIA and Mossad acted as one unit. This bond was established through the Permindex funding, "follow-the money" Lansky/Rosenbaum Swiss bank dirty money laundry network. All proven in stone. Angleton and Shaw were part of the original formation of Mossad. I'm not saying Mossad controlled the conspiracy. I'm saying the Mediterranean network Piper fleshes out was brought in as strong facilitators.

Also, I thought Spotlight was the magazine that produced the only court verdict proving CIA conspiracy through Hunt.

[Greg Burnham]

Also, I thought Spotlight was the magazine that produced the only court verdict proving CIA conspiracy through Hunt.

So many myths to bust. So little time. Can someone else take this one please.

[Don Jeffries]

I usually respect Mark Stapleton's views very much, but I think it's a huge mistake to follow the likes of Rago. Rago's theories about the assassination are in the same league with Ray Carroll and Tom Purvis. They really aren't worth debating, or even trying to decipher.

That being said, I object to the idea that postulating Israeli involvement can be so cavalierly smeared as anti-semitism. I was a long time subscriber to The Spotlight. In the days before the internet, it was really the best source to get alternative news. Yes, they were thoroughly obsessed with Israel, and tended to see a Mossad agent behind every tree. However, they produced some great investigative journalism. They were the first to publicize the Bilderbergers, and sent legendary reporter Jim Tucker to infiltrate their meetings every year. They also were the first to truly expose vote fraud in America, when they serialized much of the Collier brothers' ground breaking work Votescam.

I don't think that Israeli was the primary mover behind the JFK assassination, but I won't discount their possible involvement, either. There were overlapping motives among many powerful forces, and I don't doubt that the Mossad and the CIA were interwoven at many levels even back then. I think it's unfair to Piper do dismiss his work out of hand. Like Armstrong and other controversial researchers, one can glean useful information from the research without swallowing a whole thesis.

As a point of reference, among those who sat on the board of directors for Liberty Lobby, publisher of the Spotlight, was activist/comedian Dick Gregory. Fletcher Prouty spoke at the 1990 Liberty Lobby Board of Policy convention and said, "If anybody really wants to know what's going on in the world today, he should be reading The Spotlight." And, of course, Mark Lane served as their attorney in the high profile cases against Jack Anderson and E. Howard Hunt.

[Charles Drago]

I object to the idea that postulating Israeli involvement can be so cavalierly smeared as anti-semitism.

My discomfort with this tortured prose notwithstanding, I agree.

I don't think that Israeli was the primary mover behind the JFK assassination, but I won't discount their possible involvement, either. There were overlapping motives among many powerful forces, and I don't doubt that the Mossad and the CIA were interwoven at many levels even back then.

As above.


"Israel" was no more a Sponsor of JFK's assassination than was "America." So too "Mossad" and "CIA."

[Phil Dragoo]

"Israel" was no more a Sponsor of JFK's assassination than was "America." So too "Mossad" and "CIA."

Charles above states a primary principle of the sponsor-facilitator-mechanic model, applying it to the extant fixation.

From the copious outpourings of late, it would appear, several hold Israel aka "Zionism/Zionists", "Mossad", various constructs of Jewish/Israeli influence in U.S. media and politico-military matters, as The Sponsor of the JFK assassination.

How can this be, when we have in other quarters equal-decibel insistence it was Johnson.

It was the Mob.

It was the Bush Dynasty.

That's the level of The Kennedy Tapes editors May and Zelikow (p. 439) JFK shot by one offended by the 35th president's hostility to Cuba.

Jim has referenced facts won at great cost, of time and scholarship, persistence and objectivity.

Shall it all be tossed on a bonfire of charge and countercharge.

Dulles and Angleton passing the flask at their hearth fervently hope so.

Satan passes behind with a hissing brush of the pitchfork.

What does the face of Satan look like.

Dualism or duelism.

As you end the refrain

thrust home.

[Greg Burnham]

Oh, and there we were all in one place
A generation lost in space
With no time left to start again
So come on Jack be nimble, Jack be quick
Jack Flash sat on a candlestick
Cause fire is the devil's only friend
And as I watched him on the stage
My hands were clenched in fists of rage
No angel born in Hell
Could break that Satan's spell
And as the flames climbed high into the night
To light the sacrificial rite
I saw Satan laughing with delight
The day the music died
He was singin'
Bye, Bye Miss American Pie...