Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[Charles Drago]

At what point did EVIDENCE of a NERVOUS BREAKDOWN, as Albert has called it, become evidence of the concerns weighing heavy on his mind when he resigned?? For that is all there is in this QUOTE Mark... When WAS this breakdown? Was there actually a "breakdown" in the clinical sense?

Question 1: Who cares and why do you need to know.

Question 2: Who cares and why do you need to know.

Question 3: I don't know.

BG's mental state was precarious by mid-1963.

Can we move on?

No, we can't.

"Albert" has presented as fact that BG's (I always think Benny Goodman ... ) breakdown -- not exactly a precise term, but we're talking "Albert" here -- was caused by the Kennedy problem.

"He" offers no documentation for this claim whatsoever.

"Albert" cannot be taken at "his" word.

Where is the evidence for "Albert's" claim?

Not for the "breakdown" (whatever "Albert" means by that term; "going banana bug-nuts" would be just as valid).

Rather, for the "breakdown's" cause.

[Albert Doyle]

I'd like to point to my post #210 and the responses that followed and point-out that I was accused of ad hominem a few pages back.


I wish people would answer the points. I think we are acceptably past the issue of Ben-Gurion's stress-related departure from Israeli government being real or not. I'd also like people to observe the drastic difference in posts in relation to Piper's material and relevant discussion of it.

[David Josephs]

I'd like to point to my post #210 and the responses that followed and point-out that I was accused of ad hominem a few pages back.


I wish people would answer the points. I think we are acceptably past the issue of Ben-Gurion's stress-related departure from Israeli government being real or not. I'd also like people to observe the drastic difference in posts in relation to Piper's material and relevant discussion of it.

LOL

Real, yes.... why, not so much.

Mark asks, "what proof is good enough"... that JFK and Dimona was the leading cause and in turn was the REASON for his assassination?

Not a matter of good enough... just a matter of conveying your conclusion... and the sources and info offered simply shows he was a world leader at a difficult time with the same pressures as many leaders... only HE has the USA/Britain /France as allies AND they are constructing the damn thing anyway...

So I guess the proof required is such that anyone reading it can come to the same conclusion...

ie c2766 was ordered as C20-T750 which was, in Feb, was a M91/38TS rifle...
C2766 is a M91/38 FC rifle, one of a 100 in a shipment.
The microfilm with the Kleins orders WAS TAKEN and IS an WC Exhibit and does contain orders prior to and after Hidell's order.
Except there is not one other order available showing that a "FC" rifle was being shipped for C20-T750 since August 1962...
or an order to show WHAT THESE ORDER FROM AUG WERE BEING SHIPPED....

Is it fair to say this is PROOF that Hidell's order was a joke... not really. But it does make sense that if one order had shipped this rifle as a replacement, others did too, other than Hidell... the FBI not printingany other orders is suspect... plus wouldn't you thinkif other people had been receieinv a "FC" rifle in the months prior to the assassination INSTEAD OF WHAT THEY ORDERED... and then JFK is killed with the SAME RIFLE the mistakenly got...

Someone would have said something..

DJ

[Charles Drago]

I think we are acceptably past the issue of Ben-Gurion's stress-related departure from Israeli government being real or not.

Yet again "Albert" would distract us from the real issue at hand -- whether or not BG's emotional distress was brought on by the JFK/Dimona confrontation -- by utilizing a classic "straw man" gambit in which "he" substitutes a non-issue and attempts to direct our attention to it.

And so we are left with the following choices to explain "his" behavior:

1. "Albert" is significantly mentally challenged.

2. "Albert" is pulling out all the stops to lower "himself" from "his" own petard.

3. "Albert" has (have?) a darker agenda.

[Phil Dragoo]

At 210 above 1237 words insist the elephant is in the room.

Piper presents seven hundred seventy pages insisting the elephant is Israel.

Waldron-Hartmann insist in the seven-hundred-word Ultimate Sacrifice the elephant may be the mob, as does North.

Zirbel-McClellan-Nelson and Larry Flynt's stepson insist the elephant is LBJ.

None of it is compelling but all of the proponents appear obsessive-compulsive.

Additional blue books submitted in the manner of the test-taker desperately faking.

Some aspects of Israel/Mob/LBJ are more suggestive than others but none are adequately dispositive.

[Mark Stapleton]

David, in my post #209 I asked you to clarify two small paragraphs you posted earlier.

Could you please help me here. In particular the first paragraph. I'ts almost unintelligible gobbledygook to me.

I'm trying to be very clear here. I'll answer any questions you or anyone else asks if I can, even questions about my signature.

So in the interests of fairness, I need you to reply to this.

[David Josephs]

As I posted earlier Mark... it is really not hard to believe that some of those related to Israel were involved yet not due to Dimona, imo. I think if you we in any way part of the COLD WAR contraption and thrived as a result - you were potentially part of this "rearing of their ugly head" only to disappear down the rabbit hole...

That's why when we mere mortals have discussions about planning and procedure of the INTELLIGENCE MACHINE that it's as foreign to most of us as speaking Klingon... and we simply don't know how many layers the onion contains...

David, I just don't understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps you can clarify this.

Mark,

Sorry for the confusion... it's what I've tried to say all along...

Unless you spent your life devising Cold War tactics of intelligence/counter-intelligence I do not believe it is possible to KNOW what layer of the onion we are looking at... That those involved in Cold War profiteering would have a huge stake in the death of JFK snf could have been part of it either willingly or be association.

A list of these people would surely include Israel'i's, Mafia, CIA, etc, etc.... and they in turn "reared their ugly head" as a cabal, as a group determined to maintain control - KNOWING what the real story is, to me, all based on which layers of the plan were exposed, and why.

From my POV, there is very little exposed that points to the REAL story... the cover-up - per Salandria - was designed to fall apart at the littlest bit of scrutiny... and it does... but which of the exposed stories is closest to the truth...

You're "operation on inoperable cancer" metaphor is perfect.. and there many times that wave of helplessness can cripple a person... but we press on.

That immediately afterward there were those in place to begin CREATING the cover story... imo Brennan & Sawyer were the source of these stories...
that the FBI had the ability to produce evidence of Oswald's THAT WEEKEND to be returned to Dallas suggests foreknowledge.

That's all I meant.. Israel as false sponsor to keep the eyeballs looking in a different direction... as false sponsor story hat carries with it it's own insulation.. and just enough vague truths to snare those willing to accept it.

I hope that answers your question...
DJ

[Mark Stapleton]

Unless you spent your life devising Cold War tactics of intelligence/counter-intelligence I do not believe it is possible to KNOW what layer of the onion we are looking at... That those involved in Cold War profiteering would have a huge stake in the death of JFK snf could have been part of it either willingly or be association.


That's all I meant.. Israel as false sponsor to keep the eyeballs looking in a different direction... as false sponsor story hat carries with it it's own insulation.. and just enough vague truths to snare those willing to accept it.

Thanks for that David. These are the two points I want to focus on.

In your first paragraph you are presupposing that JFK's death was a result of Cold War rivalries. That's what Angleton always said and I don't agree with this presumption.

As for the second, Israel has never been submitted as a false sponsor by those who planned the assassination, imo. They were not even suggested by anyone as playing a role in the assassination until the 1990's. If they are a false sponsor, cleverly planted by those who wish to muddy the trail, why did they wait thirty years to do so?

And therefore, is Piper guilty of planting a false sponsor? For what reason would he do this?

[Mark Stapleton]

By June of 1963 Dimona was in full operation

That's a complete fallacy.

Plutonium began to be separated at Dimona in 1966. (Cohen p.273)

The most intensive period of construction was between 1964-1966.

Why would you present something as a fact, when in fact it is not?

[Mark Stapleton]

Do you realize that BG was moving forward anyway? That whatever JFK said and did had NO EFFECT AT ALL on the progress of Dimona?

That you cannot make that connection, seems to me, the reason you maintain your OPINIONs and why Piper is ultimately wrong. JFK was much more interested in Israel than Ike ever was... yes Jophnson was even moreso that JFK... - all I ask is that proper context be included when reaching OPINIONS

I just can't let you get away with nonsense like this David.

Ultimately JFK had no effect on the progress of Dimona because he was killed in November 1963.

He got busy on Israel in March 1963 with NSAM 231 followed by the frank correspondence with Ben-Gurion. By November he was dead. Dimona was far from completed in November 1963.

After BG left office in June 1963, JFK actually stepped up the pressure on his successor Levi Ehkol, piling on four additional conditions under which the inspections be conducted.

The major construction on Dimona occured in the three years after Kennedy's death so he still had plenty of time to pressure Israel into abandoning Dimona. He was a lay down misere to defeat Goldwater in '64.

To make a comment this artfully disingenous and follow it with a patronising lecture about not being able to make connections is very poor form. A real shocker.